DB/DA all the way!
Ok... [puts DA fanboysm aside]
With FA you will have more damage because of Fiery Embrace and Burn, the damage aura also does a bit more damage than dark's. But you won't be able to leverage burn as much as a FA brute without a taunt aura, and Burn is a real gem even as a ST attack on Brutes because mobs don't flee. FA also has a great self heal and a good end recovery power, not great because it has a long recharge, but it does help especially since it boosts your recovery for a while later.
DA:
- A lot of mitigation (with the mez aura, I recommend oppressive gloom, you'll never have to worry about 99% of minions)
- exotic resists (end drain, highest psionic resist of all scrapper armors, fear)
- stealth power with +perception that helps you build for defense
- the best self heal scrappers get, needs mobs around
Both sets have a self rez but DA's needs enemies around to work.
The bad thing about DA is lowish energy resist, a damage type which is becoming more and more common, and no endurance management tool. Some people think it's unbearable even - I don't (unless you take Cloak of Fear, because it eats too much end), but I find it end heavy anyway, the heal costs a ton of end and having an IO there (the theft of essence proc) helps a lot. Oppressive Gloom at least barely drains end (same as Combat Jumping) and works well with the base slot (accuracy).
Once you are comfy with DA's end consumption, I'd say that it's far less squishy than FA and the damage difference isn't that big because you won't be able to use Burn fully on FA and FE is on a longer recharge than powers like Build Up (but it's awesome when it's up).
There's some discussion going about DA being TOO end heavy and I had my issues especially after adding Tough (plus I was never able to make a satisfactory build for my DM/DA using Cloak of Fear that used any mastery besides Body for Physical Perfection, I wanted to make her a 'fear' build since DM has touch of fear, but in the end I gave up because I wanted darkness mastery) so if you're not used to end heavy toons you may find DA a bit too much.
I find DA overall better than FA and have pseudo tanked psi mobs several times because the ice or invul in the team couldn't handle it. Also off tanked a lot, protecting myself and squishies around me, because Oppressive Gloom makes minions helpless.
Less redraw if you go with DA.
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Quote:
And less interrupting of your combo-based system attack chains. When burn is up, you will have to decide if the chain is worth it over the sweetness of burn. Seems undesirable to me.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Less redraw if you go with DA.
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With DA, you toggle up and only interrupt if you need to heal. It is technically the most endurance heavy set in terms of toggling everything on. As for CoF, it has the same end/sec cost as death shroud. If you want you can have a damage aura, a to-hit debuffer, and a minion mitigator. It just costs you twice the price to run it. But you have the option of detoggling one of them if you feel it is necessary. If you do this, the set is then on par with any other set in terms of toggle endurance drain... if not better. DA doesn't have an endurance recovery tool, but it does have very high endurance drain resistance (69%?). So no worries about sappers (well, not as much worries).
Because DB isn't too endurance heavy, I think DA pairs with it very well. Good luck in your decision making and I hope you enjoy dual blades.
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Interestingly, TW actually has no redraw during Momentum. So you can use Burn and go back to your weapon attacks with no penalty, if you use Burn at the start of your Momentum cycle instead of the end.|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
And less interrupting of your combo-based system attack chains. When burn is up, you will have to decide if the chain is worth it over the sweetness of burn. Seems undesirable to me.
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However, I still would favor /DA on a scrapper, because enemies run from a /FA scrapper's Burn, since they don't have a taunt aura. If this were a Brute it might be more of a toss-up.
Edit: Wow, why did I think this post was about TW? Facepalm @ me
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Is this really much of a decision? You have 5 seconds to do the next manuever in a chain. So shouldn't it be Burn and then continue with the chain?|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
And less interrupting of your combo-based system attack chains. When burn is up, you will have to decide if the chain is worth it over the sweetness of burn. Seems undesirable to me.
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I will echo that if redraw is an issue for you that DB/FA has a lot of it and add that on my Brute I have found it to be a bit endurance hungry.
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DB/DA all day every day. Burn's nice, but DA is just too damned good.
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Well since scrapper Burn isn't that hot (no pun intended!) because the mobs don't stick around you, you may want to use Burn after one of DB's Knockdowns like the Sweep combo or 1k Cuts.
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Originally Posted by Erratic
Is this really much of a decision? You have 5 seconds to do the next manuever in a chain. So shouldn't it be Burn and then continue with the chain?
I will echo that if redraw is an issue for you that DB/FA has a lot of it and add that on my Brute I have found it to be a bit endurance hungry. |
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That's very true. I am trying to see if the devs are willing to address the issue that Scrapper Burn does the least damage of any other version due to this problem... perhaps taunt in Blazing?
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Interestingly, TW actually has no redraw during Momentum. So you can use Burn and go back to your weapon attacks with no penalty, if you use Burn at the start of your Momentum cycle instead of the end.
However, I still would favor /DA on a scrapper, because enemies run from a /FA scrapper's Burn, since they don't have a taunt aura. If this were a Brute it might be more of a toss-up. |
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Quote:
It's not an issue. That's like saying Brute Kinetic Melee has 'issues' because the AT doesn't benefit as much from damage bonuses and can't crit so CS doesn't refresh PS. Or saying AAO is problematic on Brutes - it isn't, they just aren't as benefited due to how they work with +dam (although Shield Charge has a little issue with Brutes because it has a lower, separate damage cap). |
Originally Posted by JayboH
That's very true. I am trying to see if the devs are willing to address the issue that Scrapper Burn does the least damage of any other version due to this problem... perhaps taunt in Blazing?
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The same way scrappers only only get Taunt auras when they buff the toon or debuff enemies (shields, invuln, wp), that's why EA got one while sets that had taunt auras added for Brutes didn't get them on scrappers like SR or Regen.
Some powers or entire powersets just work better for one AT or another, and this is not exclusive to Brutes and Scrappers.
Problem with DA is just the sheer multitude of toggles that you end up running.
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Obsidian Shield
Oppressive Gloom
Tough
Weave
Acrobatics
Cloak of Darkness
Death Shroud
Combat Jumping
That's 10 toggles. An entire bar's worth. Even putting in a knockback protection IO and dropping Acrobatics, 9 is not much of an improvement.
With an EndRed SO in each of those (except CJ and OG), you're looking at 1.88 e/s drain. Absent any stamina or body mastery boosts, that gives you a whopping .2 end recharge. 3 slotted stamina boosts you up to .6 eps in net gain, but that's still not very good. You need to tag on physical perfection, and +recovery IOs to really make this viable for any fight that lasts more than about 10 seconds.
I would LOVE if DA had at least -one- passive power. Turn Murky Cloud into a passive while keeping the same values (they aren't that great to begin with), and this would help a lot.
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No end problems on my DA characters, and why run Acro when -KB IOs are cheap like borscht?
edit: I see you have that option there, not sure why I didn't see it.
I have a DB/DA brute and it's a lot of fun. Unfortunately for her I also have a lot of other characters that are a lot of fun. Still, she definitely kicks a lot of good guy, bad guy, orphan, and adorable puppy *** when she gets going.
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Not sure on the penalty to DPS or AOE damage, buuuut, Burn would be easy enough to use with DB, in that there's plenty of times to use a power in between attacks and still maintain the combo.
BF -> Heal -> Alabating Strike -> Burn -> Vengeful Slice -> Fiery Embrace -> Sweeping Strike!
That will still still pull off the Attack Vitals combo.
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Quote:
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't consider the reason why fear was removed from Burn in the first place. Everyone benefitted except Scrappers. The problem the Fear caused was never resolved for Scrappers at all.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
It's not an issue. That's like saying Brute Kinetic Melee has 'issues' because the AT doesn't benefit as much from damage bonuses and can't crit so CS doesn't refresh PS. Or saying AAO is problematic on Brutes - it isn't, they just aren't as benefited due to how they work with +dam (although Shield Charge has a little issue with Brutes because it has a lower, separate damage cap).
The same way scrappers only only get Taunt auras when they buff the toon or debuff enemies (shields, invuln, wp), that's why EA got one while sets that had taunt auras added for Brutes didn't get them on scrappers like SR or Regen. Some powers or entire powersets just work better for one AT or another, and this is not exclusive to Brutes and Scrappers. |
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Quote:
Ok, there is no reason to run Acro if you slot CJ and Weave for kb protection, and I don't run Weave or Cloak at all. The real culprit is Dark Regen's end cost.
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Originally Posted by Matuse
Problem with DA is just the sheer multitude of toggles that you end up running.
Dark Embrace Murky Cloud Obsidian Shield Oppressive Gloom Tough Weave Acrobatics Cloak of Darkness Death Shroud Combat Jumping That's 10 toggles. An entire bar's worth. Even putting in a knockback protection IO and dropping Acrobatics, 9 is not much of an improvement. With an EndRed SO in each of those (except CJ and OG), you're looking at 1.88 e/s drain. Absent any stamina or body mastery boosts, that gives you a whopping .2 end recharge. 3 slotted stamina boosts you up to .6 eps in net gain, but that's still not very good. You need to tag on physical perfection, and +recovery IOs to really make this viable for any fight that lasts more than about 10 seconds. I would LOVE if DA had at least -one- passive power. Turn Murky Cloud into a passive while keeping the same values (they aren't that great to begin with), and this would help a lot. |
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Quote:
Theft of Essence proc in Dark Regen plus some decent slotting causes it to be a not-infrequent net gain of endurance.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Ok, there is no reason to run Acro if you slot CJ and Weave for kb protection, and I don't run Weave or Cloak at all. The real culprit is Dark Regen's end cost.
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Quote:
Not really, it's just a pbaoe fire attack that happens to benefit from Taunt in the ATs that have it because enemies don't like DoT.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
The problem with that argument is that it doesn't consider the reason why fear was removed from Burn in the first place. Everyone benefitted except Scrappers. The problem the Fear caused was never resolved for Scrappers at all.
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The fear was removed but it's still a DoT, that's why Spines/damage aura scrappers complain about mobs running too (because of Quills + the secondary damage aura, that's a lot of DoT) but they know they aren't getting a taunt in damage aura secondaries.
Blasters have Burn too btw. And the power got better for them without the fear in burn since mobs run because of the DoT so it takes longer than an auto afraid effect, but like scrappers, they can't use it the way brutes and tankers do (not sure scrappers had FA with the old Burn, if they did it wasn't for long).
My current BS/DA Scrapper (who is also my very OLD BS/DA scrapper) has 3 EndRed and 1 RecRed in Dark Regen, and that's no problem.
It's everything else. 20 million for a knockback IO is, to me, still a giant chunk of cash. If you're carting around billions, it becomes pocket change, but when it's 1/4 of your net worth on a character that isn't even your main anymore...so not worth it.
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Quote:
I may have to do some shenanigans like this on my DM/DA and my Claws/DA Brutes, I'm leveling them slowly but I plan on getting Cloak of Fear on both. The DM/DA is a reroll from my Ioed DM/DA scrapper (she has everything 'nice', meaning no purples/pvps) so she'll eventually have the goodies but since I'll be leveling her with Tough and CoF this time I see hard times ahead |
Originally Posted by Matuse
My current BS/DA Scrapper (who is also my very OLD BS/DA scrapper) has 3 EndRed and 1 RecRed in Dark Regen, and that's no problem.
It's everything else. 20 million for a knockback IO is, to me, still a giant chunk of cash. If you're carting around billions, it becomes pocket change, but when it's 1/4 of your net worth on a character that isn't even your main anymore...so not worth it. |
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Yeah, it's like that IO was designed with Dark Regen in mind! |
Originally Posted by Emberly
Theft of Essence proc in Dark Regen plus some decent slotting causes it to be a not-infrequent net gain of endurance.
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Quote:
It would be interesting to hear why you think Fear was removed. Also, blasters are forced to take an immobilize power which fixes the issue without going into pools.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Not really, it's just a pbaoe fire attack that happens to benefit from Taunt in the ATs that have it because enemies don't like DoT.
The fear was removed but it's still a DoT, that's why Spines/damage aura scrappers complain about mobs running too (because of Quills + the secondary damage aura, that's a lot of DoT) but they know they aren't getting a taunt in damage aura secondaries. Blasters have Burn too btw. And the power got better for them without the fear in burn since mobs run because of the DoT so it takes longer than an auto afraid effect, but like scrappers, they can't use it the way brutes and tankers do (not sure scrappers had FA with the old Burn, if they did it wasn't for long). |
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Quote:
Are you talking about Karmas? Man you must have hit them on a bad week. Sometimes I can get them for 100 grand.
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Originally Posted by Matuse
My current BS/DA Scrapper (who is also my very OLD BS/DA scrapper) has 3 EndRed and 1 RecRed in Dark Regen, and that's no problem.
It's everything else. 20 million for a knockback IO is, to me, still a giant chunk of cash. If you're carting around billions, it becomes pocket change, but when it's 1/4 of your net worth on a character that isn't even your main anymore...so not worth it. |
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I have a DB/DA scrapper at 23 and well . . . . endurance heavy or what . . . . bring lots of blues until you get high enough to slot properly!
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Quote:
That's obvious: because the devs wanted Burn to do more damage since it was a skippable power, the afraid component scared everyone. And that's why they frontloaded it too, which HELPS scrappers - the afraid effect (not fear) was worse than normal DoT running for all ATs.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
It would be interesting to hear why you think Fear was removed. Also, blasters are forced to take an immobilize power which fixes the issue without going into pools.
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The fact that DoT attacks makes mobs run away has nothing to do with anything else, and Burn is not the only power affected by it. See again - any spines/damage aura scrapper complaining about running mobs, actually any spines/ scrappers, I'm just used to hearing it from the farmers which are all /elec, /dark and /fire since Spines is the main source of running.
Blasters have to take a ST immob, most scrapper sets have some kind of mez that keeps mobs in burn better than a ST immob like tons of AoE KD in some sets (Mace, TW, Axe), fear (not afraid) in dark melee, immobs in Impale and M. Grasp, etc. Plus Scrappers can also take AoE and ST immobs and ST holds in the epics.
The fact that even with an AoE immob, scrappers and blasters can't make good use of Burn as much as Brutes and Tankers is just a characteristic of the ATs not having taunt on their powersets, not an 'issue'. And no, you're not gonna hear any Brute complain that their Concentrated strike doesn't have a chance to refresh Power Siphon and they'd be happy if there was a 'pool' that allowed that, like scrappers can do (without pools in a lot of primaries) to at least use Burn to the fullest in a single target and get very decent AoE mileage of it after a crowd control, 1kcuts, all the TW KDs, L. Rod, which is plenty good already. The removal of the afraid effect helps that a bit, ya know. Like the frontloaded damage.
Again, Scrappers get more mileage out of Shields and KM. Corrs are better than defenders with ice blast's Ice Storm and Blizzard because of Scourge, their inherent (fire blast actually has an REAL issue among those two because Corrs get Blaster Rain of Fire and Defs get a properly AT modded one).
I can go on and on.
I'm rolling a character called Feytality as a scrapper and I'm trying to decide between DB/FA or DB/DA which would be a better pair?