SR versus SD

This has probably been discussed, but searching didn't bring up anything for me and I wasn't in the game when SR got proliferated to tankers.

SD is something I know a lot about for tankers. It's easily softcappable and has some sweet bonuses on top of that which are well known and need not be listed.

So my question is, what advantages does SR have compared to SD? The most obvious thing is the ability to softcap sooner, but what about in the long run? Does it really shine with certain secondaries?

DDR is something to consider, but I've managed to become almost capped on my SD/SS tanker.

What do you guys think? What are your experiences?

Shield adds +Dam whereas SR is +Rechg. These are the two main differences to me.

With +Rechg can come in a roundabout way +dam an/or +utility (controls/tools over time) but this can mean ya can use higher end costing powers more often which in turn can mean an increase in EPS. The +Dam in Shield doesn't add to any utility over time but allows you to do more DPE and effectively save on endurance easily offering something thats in a roundabout way comparable to the +Endrec WP gets from QR and therefore QR aids in doing extra Damage over time.

The sets are balanced although they may not seem like it. For me they're seemingly balanced to do X to an Endpoint and aid in Y amount of possibilities to an endurance bar. People see inbalances I would assume from what they can do in Z amount of time or with how they like to play.

Shield will have its moments of greater sturdiness and of your timing, SRs resistance is pretty much the same and there is less you can do about it. Outside of OWS though Shield is probably not a resistant all rounder, the passives of SR amount to an average 10% res each worked out two different ways over 60% of health so SR looks to be overall sturdier than Shield when Shield is not using its tier 9.

SR has DDR and the +rech power and that's it.

SD has quite a bit of +maxhp (almost +20% slotted) and can easily reach 45% res to s/l (slotting deflection and tough, both have much better numbers on Tankers than Scraps/Brutes) and 24% to the rest (except psionic, but including toxic) on SOs, plus adding up to 65% damage with the taunt aura, besides having a high damaging telenuke.

A top end build can also cap DDR with HOs. Without them you still have 66% defdebuff.

Plus SR's taunt aura is weaker than Willpower (1 sec versus 1.25 sec duration), although I believe this to be a bug since the Brute version is normal, with a 13.6 secs duration.

But even if the aura is a bug, I think shields win by a mile since it's not much more expensive to softcap on a Tanker, unlike on Scrappers and Brutes where the numbers are considerably lower so you'll spend way more to cap a /SD than SR on the latter two.

I don't know enough about the resistance of SR other than toxic and psionics aren't resisted IIRC. SR is easier to softcap positionally (but both can be softcapped easily with IOs) and SR will easily cap on DDR whereas Shield will have to stretch to max on DDR, but my build gets to ~85%. Also, SR has a movement and recharge bonus.

Shield offers you +damage, debuffs damage (which is like adding resistance to everything), has some resistance to all but psionics, increase to max hp (which is like adding more resistance to everything), and a nice AoE attack.

Also Shield has a soft crashing god mode power which can be up 33% of the time IIRC. It can cap your S/L resistance, get your E/N/F/C/T resistance to about 45% and can cap your HP. Also you get a recovery boost IIRC.

IMO, Shield is better for a tanker. Softcapping positionally is harder for a scrapper or brute, so SR could make more sense for them. I suppose SR could attempt to go over softcap to pad for defense debuffs and tohit buffs, but I would rather just have more HP and the other cool things Shield offers.

The biggest issue for shield is the limited use of some two-handed primaries. Otherwise, I looked at the numbers and I think that shield should be mentioned as one of the top defense sets along with WP and Invulnerability.

Argh...I hate to ask this question but I have no choice. Some of these acryomns you all use, I am not familiar with.

DDR?

For instance, say you have a WP tank. They have 21.625% DDR. Say they have 45% defense (softcapped) and they get hit by one 10% defense debuff attack:

Their DDR resists that debuff so that it takes 10*(1-0.21625)= 7.8375%
The WP's defense is now 37.1625%. Before the enemy had a 5% chance to hit you, now it more than doubled to 12.8375%. This is how cascading defense can ultimately melt a defense oriented tank.

With a shield that has about 85% DDR, that same debuff would only be 1.5%. This tanks new defense would be 43.5% and the enemy's chance to hit is 6.5%.

So for two softcapped tanks, this one debuff made the WP tanker almost twice as likely to hit as the shield tank because of the effects of DDR. Some like to aim for defenses around 50-60% to deal with cascading defense debuffs. By having the extra padding the effects of the debuff can wear off before the cascade can begin to happen. This makes SR more desirable as it can easily clear softcap and can provide plenty of padding. Add that with its capped DDR (90% or 95% IIRC) makes its only real worries the auto-hits, enemy tohit buffs and spike damage.

the real limitation of shield defense is that you really need to be surrounded by enemies to get the benefits - both the +dmg and the -dmg to your foes.

This is not normally a problem for tankers, but it does mean you need to herd them. A bunch of Council shooting you at range is a problem. SR just always works, so it is a bit easier to work with.

You probably won't normally notice this unless the terrain/enemy is a bad combo (council on Striga ships)

Another major difference between the two is their "out of the box" performance. Realistically, if you're posing this question on the forums basic IO budgeting probably isn't a major consideration for you, but for some people (like seasonal subscribers that don't have the IO system permanently unlocked) it's a perfectly valid consideration.

Super Reflexes is extremely easy to cap even on SOs and a defense boost from your secondary (ie: Storm Kick) or weave. Shield defense by comparison only gets 28.4% defense from SOs. In order to get to the soft cap of 45%, you'd need weave and combat jumping and maneuvers, a defense boost from your secondary, or saturated Phalanx Fighting (which can be unreliable.)

If you're planning around building with IOs, though, I personally don't see the draw to Super Reflexes. The defense debuff resistance is a very nice perk in some conditions (like the ITF,) but Super Reflexes is strictly a one-trick pony. When you come up against something that can see through that trick, you'd better have a tray full of oranges to fall back on. Shield gives you a bit more room for error with its higher HP, and minor resistances while also potentially buffing your team and giving you a very noticeable bump to your damage output.

The best reason I can come up with for picking SR on an "advanced" build is intentionally giving yourself room to pick up alternate set bonuses since you don't have to go out of your way for positional defense.

That's another valid point that results in a strike for SR: Shield Defense has a solid 'steroid' power that can really give you a lot of clutch survivability. Elude, on the other hand, has a hard crash and is only useful when you come up against mobs that have massive +to hit buffs that completely floor your defenses.

I think the only things SR has going for it over SD is slightly better DDR, easier to soft-cap, and you don't have to carry a #*@%ing shield. Overall though, SD is more survivable.

With a good build- and good IO investment, you should be able to cap your DDR. I have done it on my /sd brute and scrapper. If anything it should be easier to accomplish on a tanker, right?

Unless I were going for concept, there is virtually no way I would make a sr toon over a shield defense toon. That doesn't just apply to tanks, but to any meleer. Well, except for stalkers who got the /sd shaft...

SD is like SR, except on crack.

One detail that too many people often forget, I think, is that the fabled "defense cap" at 45% is based on even-con minions. It'll get you hit once in 20 attacks on average only then. Question - in the end game content, how often do you go against one of those?

Against anything above your level or above minion rank, let alone both, you need more than 45% to "soft-cap". In those circumstances, SR I believe pulls ahead of SD because :
A) it gets you much higher defense numbers (I got a level 47 tank at 54/48/44 positional defense with only SR powers running and a couple set bonuses, and since I have CJ and Martial arts' Crane Kick I can add 13% to all this at any time)
B) it lets you keep the higher caps easier since any DR will be much better resisted (that same Tanker has over 90% DDR round the clock)

In end-game content, especially incarnate (all the more in the interval whre you don't have the incarnate shifts) I think Elude is actually very useful since it gives you, well, godly levels of defense and recovery. Until you crash that is , but with some luck you can quickly pop a blue and get your shields back up - I've done it in an ITF while Romy was pounding at me, didn't bite it.

Sure, SR is a one-trick pony. But it does this trick so much better than anyone else that there's no comparison. It doesn't get the layered protection of Invul, or the utilities of SD, but it is perfectly viable in end-game content (with the one caveat that going for the old "Mo" badges is a nightmare since all it takes for you to die is a couple RNG hate-shots.)

To the argument of higher HPs on SD, well, I may not have as much, but I've managed to add some very respectable bonuses through sets - because for once, I don't feel I need to chase the defense hare relentlessly. I have great regen, decent recovery, excellent recharge even without Hasten (gotta love LotGs) and even without stats-boosting accolades, I believe somewhere around 15% extra base HP. I can solo +2/x4 Carnies and Malta at level 47, and I'm proud of myself for it.

I'm not saying it's better than other sets. It's too highly specialized for that. But I don't consider it worse either, because I've proven several times in the last few weeks that I could be as good a Tanker as any other.

Ah - I don't know why, but I thought the boost affected ToHit, not accuracy. My bad. Thanks for pointing out the correct info.

However, since many end-game toons have higher base accuracy and buffs helping them hit, I think my point remain somewhat valid, though I was wrong on the specifics. I know for a fact that I get hit much less often by Malta Bandits or Vengeance'd Nemesis than the rest of my team, for example. Against those, SR's base advantage remains. And for i-trials, getting 59% to all positions all the time - and stay there - is far easier to do with SR.

[Edit : Rest of the post deleted for inaccuracy. I forgot that conning +5 isn't the same as being 5 levels higher. ]

Awhile back, I actually made an advanced mitigation calculation 'worksheet' for my tankers in Excel that had all the numbers, but unfortunately I think I lost it in a recent reformat.

Kioshi's right on the mechanics of how Defense works, though. The gist of it is that if a +0 minion will have only a 5% chance to hit you, the same attack made by a +2 Lieutenant would have just shy of a 7% chance to hit you regardless of whether you have more than 45% defense or not.