Quote:
They really shouldn't have put them under the 'Tank' category at character creation then.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So why specifically peacebringers or brutes should be normalized as "tanking classes" and not, say, scrappers or VEATs, would likely appear arbitrary to the devs.
|
Granted, the Tank category would otherwise be pretty empty with just the one AT listed.
And I would have thrown a conniption had they the gall to put Tankers under 'Melee Damage' in their current condition.
.
Quote:
Because in character creation the developers put them under the category of "Tank" by their own definition, not mine.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you are thinking in terms of presenting a case to the developers, your initial problem will be with the assumption that tankers, brutes, peacebringers, and warshades are "tanking classes" that all should all have the same tanking potential under buffing. The Tanker is the singular "tanking class" as such, and on the red side the canonical role of tanking was split between brutes and masterminds. Both peacebringers and warshades were given the option to act as pseudo-tankers in their design, but not primary tankers. Their resistance caps are indicative of that, not errantly set too low for a genuine tanker class.
So why specifically peacebringers or brutes should be normalized as "tanking classes" and not, say, scrappers or VEATs, would likely appear arbitrary to the devs. |
Quote:
Really? We're using character creation window as evidence for why all hp/res/def caps should be the same? |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Because in character creation the developers put them under the category of "Tank" by their own definition, not mine.
|
Let's face it, what you propose is a nerf to the tanker. Resistance, hp and defense is an absolute cap. If we use the same cap for every AT they would be exactly the same at cap. We cant do this for other things, like say everyone now gets the same damage cap. That would hurt all ATs that have lower damage mods (so now brutes would cry foul if it was capped at 500%).
The different mods and caps are to reflect the specialties of the respective AT. Just because an AT can tank doesn't mean they should be able to at the same level as the AT who is supposed to specialize in it. A corruptor can buff, put they shouldn't be able to buff to the same level as a defender. And defenders are not suppose to be able to do the raw damage of a corruptor. Sure, both can blast, but the defender will never blast better than the corruptor. So why is it that the tank can never do the damage of a kheldian or brute, but you believe they can be allowed to maintain the same survivability of a tank? Your reason is to introduce niches. Brutes do damage. Khelds do utility/morph. Tanks do debuffs/buffs. Beyond the resistance debuff, what can a tanker do in terms of buffing/debuffing that makes sense to super heroes or comics? How would captain america Bbws able to make his team do more damage?
Edit: I apologize for the lack of fluidity of ny arguments. Typing this post from a cell phone makes it difficult to keep pace with the thoughts I want to articulate. If I don't make sense, I'll reiterate my arguments more clearly later on. Until then, I hope this suffice
In the end, very little needs to be done. So proposing ideas that are a radical change will never be seriously considered by the Devs. We just need to find where in the fundamental things that are off balanced that need to be tweaked. IMO the best ideas had to do with small damage buffs or better aggro control. It sounds like the aggro formula tweak isn't an easy fix. But those two fundamental ideas are the best proposals I've heard that could actually be implemented and it would generally appease the tankers without a heavy outcry from other ATs. The game has had tankers for 21 issues, since the beginning. The people still love them and still play them. Everyone who has made suggestions here love them, otherwise they wouldn't play them. There are some shortcomings, but balance will not come from an overhaul. It comes with fine tuning
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
They really shouldn't have put them under the 'Tank' category at character creation then.
Granted, the Tank category would otherwise be pretty empty with just the one AT listed. And I would have thrown a conniption had they the gall to put Tankers under 'Melee Damage' in their current condition. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Because in character creation the developers put them under the category of "Tank" by their own definition, not mine.
|
Widows have a ranged damage score of 5, and are a ranged damage playstyle recommendation. Dominators have a score of 6 (and this was before they were buffed) and they are not. What the archetypes are judged capable of doing and which archetypes are recommended for a particular playstyle is highly subjective in the playstyle selector in the character creator.
And to the extent we can nit-pick it, the devs official response is that its not for us. I asked this question specifically, and directly. If you can nit-pick the playstyle screen's recommendations, you're not its target audience.
And frankly, if Defenders are listed under Ranged Damage as an archetype, Tankers should be listed under Melee Damage as an archetype. That's just a mathematically inconsistent decision. The fact that it would give J_B fits is only incidental.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Lets use your Corruptor vs Defender buffing/debuffing:|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
Really? We're using character creation window as evidence for why all hp/res/def caps should be the same?
Let's face it, what you propose is a nerf to the tanker. Resistance, hp and defense is an absolute cap. If we use the same cap for every AT they would be exactly the same at cap. We cant do this for other things, like say everyone now gets the same damage cap. That would hurt all ATs that have lower damage mods (so now brutes would cry foul if it was capped at 500%). The different mods and caps are to reflect the specialties of the respective AT. Just because an AT can tank doesn't mean they should be able to at the same level as the AT who is supposed to specialize in it. A corruptor can buff, put they shouldn't be able to buff to the same level as a defender. And defenders are not suppose to be able to do the raw damage of a corruptor. Sure, both can blast, but the defender will never blast better than the corruptor. So why is it that the tank can never do the damage of a kheldian or brute, but you believe they can be allowed to maintain the same survivability of a tank? Your reason is to introduce niches. Brutes do damage. Khelds do utility/morph. Tanks do debuffs/buffs. Beyond the resistance debuff, what can a tanker do in terms of buffing/debuffing that makes sense to super heroes or comics? How would captain america Bbws able to make his team do more damage? Edit: I apologize for the lack of fluidity of ny arguments. Typing this post from a cell phone makes it difficult to keep pace with the thoughts I want to articulate. If I don't make sense, I'll reiterate my arguments more clearly later on. Until then, I hope this suffice In the end, very little needs to be done. So proposing ideas that are a radical change will never be seriously considered by the Devs. We just need to find where in the fundamental things that are off balanced that need to be tweaked. IMO the best ideas had to do with small damage buffs or better aggro control. It sounds like the aggro formula tweak isn't an easy fix. But those two fundamental ideas are the best proposals I've heard that could actually be implemented and it would generally appease the tankers without a heavy outcry from other ATs. The game has had tankers for 21 issues, since the beginning. The people still love them and still play them. Everyone who has made suggestions here love them, otherwise they wouldn't play them. There are some shortcomings, but balance will not come from an overhaul. It comes with fine tuning |
1) They have different mod values, meaning the Defender buffs/debuffs are more effective. In my case above, Tankers would still have higher mod values.
2) Defender/Corruptors still have the same buff/debuff caps. Neither AT can exceed the 400% -Resistance cap nor the speed caps. In my situation, all the tanking ATs would have the same max cap similar to Defender/Corruptor.
And my main argument is this:
Right now its already godmode with certain builds that even Scrappers can achieve, if you make a class even tougher it will be like shooting fish in a barrel. (We already have a thread burning fish in a barrel)
If you then make the content harder, the non-defensive ATs are going to be constantly one shotted in teams/raids. People are already complaining about this (Snowglobe for example) in the TPN trial with Maelstorm's vorpal kick.
It also forces you to have certain builds and or ATs which imo is the wrong direction.
Thus, my point is if you streamline the 4 possible tanking classes and give them unique flavors, it can allow people to tank and choose what they want as voiced in this thread.
Some people want more damage, some want buffs/debuffs, some want more aggro, etc.
Quote:
When was the last time a defender or corruptor took an enemy to their resistance cap and it mattered? For the most part that level of debuffing is over kill. And against an AV with the purple patch, you would seriously have to push to get them there. You do not have to seriously push to get a brute to a tankers survivability
|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Lets use your Corruptor vs Defender buffing/debuffing:
1) They have different mod values, meaning the Defender buffs/debuffs are more effective. In my case above, Tankers would still have higher mod values. 2) Defender/Corruptors still have the same buff/debuff caps. Neither AT can exceed the 400% -Resistance cap nor the speed caps. In my situation, all the tanking ATs would have the same max cap similar to Defender/Corruptor. |
Quote:
First I don't really agree with Ultimus' proposal for a lot of reasons. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The Tanker is the singular "tanking class" as such, and on the red side the canonical role of tanking was split between brutes and masterminds.
|
On the other hand, I think whatever the canonical roles were when CoV came out is a thing of the past. I think at least Synapse sees it this way as well.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Synapse
I think it's safe to say that the original design of some archetypes differ from reality.
|
Seeing as Brutes now have a Taunt aura in every one of their secondaries, including Regen, I think its pretty safe to say that they are clearly intended to hold aggro.
Whether or not that is only part of the definition of tanking and how much it represents is another matter.
Quote:
Flavor should come at a balanced cost. If you allow each AT to have the same hp/res/def, how do you balance the flavors? What level of utility is even with damage? What level of buffs balances with utility/damage? And how do you keep it balanced across all soloing and teaming content? How does it balance with stackability? It a team of 8 debuffing tanks could be made, say good bye to defenders, they won't ever be needed again.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
And my main argument is this:
Right now its already godmode with certain builds that even Scrappers can achieve, if you make a class even tougher it will be like shooting fish in a barrel. (We already have a thread burning fish in a barrel) If you then make the content harder, the non-defensive ATs are going to be constantly one shotted in teams/raids. People are already complaining about this (Snowglobe for example) in the TPN trial with Maelstorm's vorpal kick. It also forces you to have certain builds and or ATs which imo is the wrong direction. Thus, my point is if you streamline the 4 possible tanking classes and give them unique flavors, it can allow people to tank and choose what they want as voiced in this thread. Some people want more damage, some want buffs/debuffs, some want more aggro, etc. |
Edit: we should take this argument offline. This is a great thread and we're doing it a disservice by flooding it with our back and forth rhetoric. PM me if you wish to continue making your case, otherwise we can just agree to disagree for the sake of the forum readers.
Quote:
Purple patch has no effect on the effectiveness of a -Res debuff.|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
When was the last time a defender or corruptor took an enemy to their resistance cap and it mattered? For the most part that level of debuffing is over kill. And against an AV with the purple patch, you would seriously have to push to get them there. You do not have to seriously push to get a brute to a tankers survivability
|
-Res is a flat value, even with so called resistance.
If you hit a 54 AV with 10 -Res debuffs that do -40% resistance each, he still takes 400% more damage AKA the cap. This is whether he has 0 resistance or 99% resistance he still takes 400% more damage.
Quote:
I'll need verification of this. You are correct that the AV will take 400% more damage than it would had it not been debuffed with -400%. But that doesn't mean the AV is capped yet for -res. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Purple patch has no effect on the effectiveness of a -Res debuff.
-Res is a flat value, even with so called resistance. If you hit a 54 AV with 10 -Res debuffs that do -40% resistance each, he still takes 400% more damage AKA the cap. This is whether he has 0 resistance or 99% resistance he still takes 400% more damage. |
As for the purple patch, I'm not sure. It might not be affected... but then I'll probably need a refresher as to why it is considered extra beneficial that the AV is applying the debuff to itself as opposed to the tanker applying it
Quote:
Just ask Arcanaville. Send her a PM
|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
I'll need verification of this. You are correct that the AV will take 400% more damage than it would had it not been debuffed with -400%. But that doesn't mean the AV is capped yet for -res.
As for the purple patch, I'm not sure. It might not be affected... but then I'll probably need a refresher as to why it is considered extra beneficial that the AV is applying the debuff to itself as opposed to the tanker applying it |
Quote:
Well other games manage to do this, World of Warcraft has 4 unique tanking classes with all the same caps yet different flavors. It takes time but its not something that is impossible. It then allows the balancing of the PVE aspect of the game that much easier because now instead of going well one AT will make this fight a joke, the 3 others will struggle, or we have to make it a challenge to the one AT but the other 3 will be an instant-corpse if they get touched, you can base the encounter on one standard baseline.
|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
Flavor should come at a balanced cost. If you allow each AT to have the same hp/res/def, how do you balance the flavors? What level of utility is even with damage? What level of buffs balances with utility/damage? And how do you keep it balanced across all soloing and teaming content? How does it balance with stackability? It a team of 8 debuffing tanks could be made, say good bye to defenders, they won't ever be needed again.
|
Quote:
I'm sure they will chime in without the need if a PM. I know the minimum resistance is -300%. But if an enemy has say 50% damage resistance and you apply 400% debuffs. They will resist the debuffs by 50%. I will look up the formula later. But either way, I'm fairly certain your -400% resistance debuffs did not make the 50% resistant critter get capped to -300%
|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Just ask Arcanaville. Send her a PM
|
Quote:
This game is not World of Warcraft.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Well other games manage to do this, World of Warcraft has 4 unique tanking classes with all the same caps yet different flavors.
|
This game doesn't require any AT to get any content done.
Having specific ATs for things, just makes some of those encounters smoother or easier.
Case in point - I've run wildly successful (read: surprisingly smooth & fast completion) all VEAT BAFs & Lambdas, not an aggro holder in sight.
What you seem to want is to push this game and its ATs more towards WoW and less like CoH, my opinion is that this is an absolutely horrendous idea.
There's really only one issue I have with Tankers: a Shield Defense SCRAPPER can out-aggro a Tanker with Against All Odds, because it comes with a debuff on top of the taunt aura, and enemies hate debuffs almost as much as they hate being taunted.
I also wish that Unyielding in Invul gave as much S/L resist as it does every other resist, but that's an Invul issue, not a Tanker exclusive issue.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This game is not World of Warcraft.
This game doesn't require any AT to get any content done. Having specific ATs for things, just makes some of those encounters smoother or easier. Case in point - I've run wildly successful (read: surprisingly smooth & fast completion) all VEAT BAFs & Lambdas, not an aggro holder in sight. What you seem to want is to push this game and its ATs more towards WoW and less like CoH, my opinion is that this is an absolutely horrendous idea. |
No you missed my entire point if you think that.
What I am saying is that if you buff the Tanker so much defensively that it stands out from the other ATs, you will have a godmode character that can never be killed. Its already godmode for some characters to go beyond that would make the game beyond easy to where you could just AFK and auto attack.
The problem then becomes when you have to buff content to match this. You then have content that will one shot anyone that isn't a Tanker in order to create a challenge for the Tanker. Thats not fun.
My point with World of Warcraft was they learned this same lesson, and hence why they moved away from having a single class doing one thing to allowing a lot of different classes doing it. They also buffed everyone's HP's across the board so that no one gets one shot anymore and it takes multiple shots from even a raid boss to bring down a cloth wearer.
Quote:
So, World of Walking learned not to screw players from COH, en? |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
My point with World of Warcraft was they learned this same lesson, and hence why they moved away from having a single class doing one thing to allowing a lot of different classes doing it. They also buffed everyone's HP's across the board so that no one gets one shot anymore and it takes multiple shots from even a raid boss to bring down a cloth wearer.
|
Took them long enough.
In general, though, i view your notions with extreme skepticism.
The superhero genre is very fluid, but the one thematic thing is, every toon is unique.
Your suggestions go against that core thematic, sorry.
Any improvements to tankers should make them MORE unique, not less.
Quote:
Right and back to my point of giving them more buffs and debuffs a la bruising to make them more unique.
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
So, World of Walking learned not to screw players from COH, en?
Took them long enough. In general, though, i view your notions with extreme skepticism. The superhero genre is very fluid, but the one thematic thing is, every toon is unique. Your suggestions go against that core thematic, sorry. Any improvements to tankers should make them MORE unique, not less. |
Gauntlet:
What if Gauntlet gave the tanker a damage mod based on the number of enemies who are currently aggroed on them?
Kind of like a Tanker-version of Fury, but focused on rewarding tanking behavior.
This would really, really need a damage cap raise from 300% to 400% though, as it's way too easy to hit the cap as is...
[b]Champion Server:
Shining Shieldmaiden: Shield Defense/Super Strength Tanker
Twilight Sparkle: Magical Friendship Unicorn
Quote:
And if you buff the Brute defensively to the point where their base mitigation matches a Tanker's, then their offense will need to be nerfed to compensate.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
What I am saying is that if you buff the Tanker so much defensively that it stands out from the other ATs, you will have a godmode character that can never be killed.
|
I never want to see that happen.
IMO Tankers are already too survivable to add buffs and debuffs to the AT. They don't need this.
Quote:
I played back with godmode tankers. Literally my rad/rad defender friend was one shot by a boss that I tanked easily plus the rest of the spawn. Tankers were stupid back then compared to everyone else.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
And my main argument is this:
If you then make the content harder, the non-defensive ATs are going to be constantly one shotted in teams/raids. People are already complaining about this (Snowglobe for example) in the TPN trial with Maelstorm's vorpal kick. |
Brutes should be lesser tankers.
I absolutely agree that the AT selection screens should be a guideline for what players can expect from the AT's. Look at the survivability for Tankers and Brutes - tankers is higher. brute damage is higher. Brutes should have lower def/res, the screens do not lie.
Quote:
Once again you have misread my posts. I never said anything about buffing BASE mitigation. I stated that streamlining the four tank AT's so that they all share the same res/def/hp CAP.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
And if you buff the Brute defensively to the point where their base mitigation matches a Tanker's, then their offense will need to be nerfed to compensate.
I never want to see that happen. IMO Tankers are already too survivable to add buffs and debuffs to the AT. They don't need this. |
The Tanker would still have the highest base mods. The only thing this would change for Brutes would be they would get a higher HP cap which would be around 160% (260% if not counting base). The Kheldians would see the most benefit from this.
On top of this, Tankers would be getting team buffs, like shouts, that increase the team's HP, resistance, defense, debuffs enemies res, def, etc. (Not all at once, just one at a time)
Their attacks could also get more debuffs put in place like bruising. Something akin to Tanker attacks cripple their opponents.
OK. This is my first post. Please be kind. 
I have two ideas for "tank mods"
1) change gauntlet to a toggle that makes all tanker attacks deal 7-15% of the damage generated by any given attack to the targets that would normally be taunted by gauntlet. Better agg control in teams and better soloing capabilities.
2) Reduce tank max HP say 10%, remove gauntlet and bruise and introduce two toggles that play on these removals.
a) Tank-go back to current tanker hp have gauntlet back and deal 5% less damage in exchange for a 5% bonus do defense and resistance. This is not a fair trade, tanks do benifit from this more than they suffer from losing 5% damage.
b) Powerhouse- all attacks apply a non enhancable 15% resistance debuff, further lower Tank resistance and possibly defense by 10%( possibly include a reduction in the resistance cap) . Still tougher than the rest but no where near the damage output. This will make it HARDER for a tank to "do their job" but make a second tank in a party act as a force multiplier instead of another meat shield and make soloing less painful.
I will admit I pulled these numbers out of thin air based on what sounded "right" from my game experience. A Mids analysis would probably tweak these but here's my two cents. Now the experienced peeps can jump in and voice their opinions.
Think of it as presenting a case to a developer, I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but for what reason does Brute need to be brought down or Tanker have superior caps?
I gave my reasoning for streamlining the 4 tanks in terms of caps, whats yours?
So why specifically peacebringers or brutes should be normalized as "tanking classes" and not, say, scrappers or VEATs, would likely appear arbitrary to the devs.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)