Dark Amor....negative resistance

Cloak of Fear is a terrible power. Nobody faults SA characters for using only granite or FA characters for skipping Temperature Protection. Unless you have some synergy with CoF, there is very little reason to take it. Comparisons that throw it out are doing the smart and accurate thing.

It also heals far less and doesn't recharge as fast. Invalid comparison.

And Dark Armor has a revival power that refills both HP and End and stuns everything nearby with magnitude 30, and it has solid end drain resist and it has a bunch of other tools that make this comparison likewise invalid.

And it heals less than DR and recharges way less often.

These are simply tools in the set. DA has its own toolbox.

No it does not. You asked for "normalization." Right now, DA pays less for the protection it gets than the other set. Normalization would hurt the set.

Using SOs, Dark Regeneration does not refill endurance. Against a limited number of targets, it does not refill endurance. And Invulnerability has end drain resistance as well.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Revival power. The T9.

Invuln gets 25% end drain protection on a tank. DA gets 86.5%. You really want to compare that level of protection?

The t9 revival power also has the possibility of not even being able to work at all, and I was assuming you meant Dark Regeneration because that's what everyone else was talking about refilling their end with since it didn't involve dying in the middle of a spawn while things continued to stand over their corpse.

And stating that "and [Dark Armor] has drain resistance and [...]" seems to imply that Invulnerability doesn't. Had you said it has "more drain resistance" that would indicate that you were aware of the drain resistance that Invulnerability was given but your word choice indicated ignorance of it, not dismissal.

Edit: It's also 25% regardless of AT or level for Invulnerability since it uses melee_ones - that 86.5% you quote is only for Tankers at level 50; other ATs get 30.0%-69.2% as they level up. Yes, it's more but it's not always triple the value and the drain resistance cap is stupidly low when a character starts out.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Yes, true.

I don't think that is fair really, since comparing what SA is with Granite vs running OG + CoF isn't even close.


I was addressing that scenario, and those are the two heals, so there really isn't anything else to compare it to that makes sense. Thankfully, that makes it a completely valid comparison at all levels.


True, I don't consider defeat from overall weakness of a set as a weapon or tool when doing comparisons. That's probably the big difference in opinion right there - maybe I am doing it wrong, and I should run in with the goal of dying in order to use Soul Transfer to stun enemies from now on - is that your secret to success? Invul has some end drain resist but since it already burns less than Dark, it doesn't need as much.


...and if it did, since it gives you far more HP than Dark, there would be an outcry due to imbalance, right?


Agreed, and they both have their weaknesses. For some reason, a few in this thread are blind to any DA weaknesses.


No, I just said if they raised the resists and kept the rest as-is, you would need to rely on DR less, and magically use less endurance because of it.

No, this is what you said:

DA already gets more protection per end than the other sets. Any more would be a severe imbalance.

No, already disproved that, but maybe you missed it, because your entire argument was taking the first toggle on all sets and looking at those only, which is a pretty warped sense of logic.

Fair enough - but I already had run the numbers for Stone vs Dark earlier in the thread, so I knew that it was only Mud Pots that really made the difference in a "typical" configuration; Stone Armor was cheaper otherwise.

Another issue with the endurance consumption for Ninjitsu, SR, and Shield is that the mez protection isn't accounted for in those numbers but is for the other sets - which makes them also seem a bit cheaper than they are. But you did mention you ignored clicks, and how you account for them is iffy since some Shield characters try to double-stack it for the extra DDR instead of taking Grant Cover - that makes it fairly expensive.

In any case, Dark Armor gets a minor discount on its toggle costs but has more toggles to run and isn't a bad set - but in a typical configuration it's one of the most expensive sets and the only ones that typically cost more have endurance refill powers (Energy Drain, Energy Absorption) and one also has an endurance discount power (Energize). I wouldn't be adverse to an increase in the negative resistance but don't see where it's really hurting.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I'm sorry, you disproved what now? Where was your math? I certainly did miss it.

They cost a power pick and are at *much* lower values because they don't cost endurance.

Without even going back, I even counter it with the quote you grabbed:

No you can't. I proved, with math, that the % of resistance Dark Armor receives from its toggles is higher per endurance than the comparable powers. If you would like to offer some proof otherwise, I invite you to try.

Sweet, I get to repeat myself yet again:

because your entire argument was taking the first toggle on all sets and looking at those only, which is a pretty warped sense of logic.

Third time's the charm perhaps?

Saying it three times doesn't make your lack of math any better. If you think adding in the rest of the powers would yield different results, you should be doing the math to prove such.

Since you seem to be afraid to do it, let me continue.

We'll compare the heals this time, since you brought that up as a point of discrepancy. All using base numbers for tanks.

Healing Flames is a 468.5 point heal for 10.4 endurance. You're getting 45 hit points for each point of endurance.

If we assume the standard three enemies, Dark Regeneration is a 1686.6 heal for 33.8 endurance. You're getting 49.9 hit points for each point of endurance. Looks to be the better deal to me, provided the user can activate it intelligently.

I don't have a horse in this race, but doesn't DR require a to-hit check for each enemy? So there is a chance you could regen 0. Excuse my lack of knowledge, have not gotten my DA above level 10 yet.

The chance is there, yes. But even without any slotting, your chance to hit is 75 per enemy. Once you have four enemies nearby, assuming decent SO slotting, it's always a full bar heal.

Even with 2 Accs in it, under enough debuffs you could miss every target in sight. My problem then is when you have a secondary or primary that doesn't have a +tohit power by a certain level or the +tohit power needs to be able to hit.

4/9 of DA's powers could miss, then upto 8/9 of the attack set could miss, this is a great loss in survivability, add in the wasted endurance should you survive or the -rechg or whatever the other possible debuffs maybe and you can be quite put out compared to other sets that do not rely so much on accuracy.

I still have the mish which takes that 75% base tohit and kills it.

Boo hoo. Everyone suffers from debuffs like that equally. Pop a yellow.

In order: Standard difficulty is +0/x1. Three minions. It's been the standard that the game was designed around. Keep in mind that 33 endurance is without enhancements. Still, I would gladly pay a third of one bar to fill the other.

You don't need to enhance the heal aspect, and the recharge is already shorter than any comparable heal. No problem "spending" slots to make it cost less.