Dark Amor....negative resistance
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-12-06 05:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I'd put DR far behind heals like Energize, and DP clones. Which has much better effects beside the heal that's permable. And I put it slightly behind just straight up heals like FA's heal with a rather lame additional effect.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
"I think that any heal that has requirements and can fail is never going to be as good a heal that's basically a regenerating free huge green insp. But that's my opinion."
Being the only self heal that can fail, in your words, you therefore think that dark regen is the worst self heal in the game. You literally said this on this very page. You think green inspirations are better than dark regeneration. Here's a funny thought, what if a dark armor character were to carry a green inspiration for the vanishingly rare case where dark regen managed not to hit any targets? Or is that not allowed? |
Yeah, I agree guys, I wonder if at this point if Dechs and his magical math with 1 to 1 comparisons is borderline trolling or not. I can't tell if he just doesn't get it or is actually incapable of looking at a set as a whole.
The rarity of requiring the use of DR vs other armor's heals are also in question, balanced against the typical mitigation scenario.
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Or mobs with high defence, or lag, yes it's essentially guaranteed unless this and this and this...guess what, thats when you need to make sure your heals work the most. You can also argue smart play makes Energize the best heal in the game(which I think it is), because of it's side effect or regen and end red out weighs that it has a lesser heal, so...?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Hail of bullets can fail if you don't understand how math works. Oh wait, it still can't, actually, but you may believe that it can.
In much the same way, dark regeneration is essentially guaranteed not to fail in any circumstance where there are more than two targets and your tohit is not negative. Is it possible to have your tohit debuffed that severely? Yes, it is. It's also possible to ameliorate your situation before firing the heal, or to avoid getting into that situation in the first place. Basically what Dechs has been saying this entire time is that competent play is all it takes for dark regeneration to be the best heal in the game. That remains true even though it clearly isn't getting through to you. |
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Oh, sure. I'm not asking for buffs to a set that is already proven to be a top performer, so I must be trolling. Come on, Jay. I know you're not stupid.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Yeah, I agree guys, I wonder if at this point if Dechs and his magical math with 1 to 1 comparisons is borderline trolling or not. I can't tell if he just doesn't get it or is actually incapable of looking at a set as a whole.
The rarity of requiring the use of DR vs other armor's heals are also in question, balanced against the typical mitigation scenario. |
If you honestly think DA needs buffs, then do the math to demonstrate that it needs the buffs.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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What part of "each tick has a 60% chance to go off, meaning a 40% chance to fail" do you not understand? Yes, the chance is pretty miniscule that none of the ticks will happen but the chance mathematically exists - just like there is a theoretical chance that all 75 ticks of Rain of Fire will miss over its duration if the streakbreaker doesn't kick in (which, btw, won't happen for the ticks on Hail of Bullets since they aren't separate tohit checks). But you apparently don't understand how math works and are incapable of viewing the difference between theoretical possibility and realistic probability.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Hail of bullets can fail if you don't understand how math works. Oh wait, it still can't, actually, but you may believe that it can.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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IO Armor is a top performer. Dark Armor is about average. Do I think it needs buffs? Nah.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Oh, sure. I'm not asking for buffs to a set that is already proven to be a top performer, so I must be trolling. Come on, Jay. I know you're not stupid.
If you honestly think DA needs buffs, then do the math to demonstrate that it needs the buffs. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Forget IOs. Arcana's analysis puts it above invuln on SOs. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
IO Armor is a top performer. Dark Armor is about average. Do I think it needs buffs? Nah.
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Besides, the set is supposed to be average. They all are; it's balance. What Jay and the others don't understand is that they are asking for buffs to a set that has been demonstrated to be in no need of buffs. Any change to the game requires mathematical proof that the chamge should be considered.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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And even Arcanaville said that the analysis doesn't take into account everything and shouldn't be the end-all-be-all of rating armor sets. How much more endurance are you using with just SOs when you have to plug that KB hole with Acrobatics in order to effectively use Dark Regeneration, for example - it does no good if you're thrown outside of its range when you need to use it.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Forget IOs. Arcana's analysis puts it above invuln on SOs.
Besides, the set is supposed to be average. They all are; it's balance. What Jay and the others don't understand is that they are asking for buffs to a set that has been demonstrated to be in no need of buffs. Any change to the game requires mathematical proof that the chamge should be considered. |
Like I said, I don't see it in need of buffs, but I certainly am not going to argue so much to maintain the status quo - that's what the devs are for. If they feel the requests are out of line, they simply don't have to do them and hopefully would explain why if they're feeling really nice. The set isn't so far out of balance that asking the devs to look at it is going to generate overwhelming nerfs, so what's the harm?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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If it isn't going to happen before the heat death of the universe, you're allowed to say it's never going to happen.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
But you apparently don't understand how math works and are incapable of viewing the difference between theoretical possibility and realistic probability.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Like I said, I don't see it in need of buffs, but I certainly am not going to argue so much to maintain the status quo - that's what the devs are for. If they feel the requests are out of line, they simply don't have to do them and hopefully would explain why if they're feeling really nice. The set isn't so far out of balance that asking the devs to look at it is going to generate overwhelming nerfs, so what's the harm?
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There, did it stick yet?
The thing is, I'm not trying to argue against buffs. I'm just asking Jay to back up his argument for once. If DA needs the buffs, it has yet to be demonstrated why.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Did you even read the first part of what you quoted, or are you too busy trying to act like you're the only one allowed to express an opinion on the forums?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
The reason this debate is pointless and stupid is that this thread has come up several times in the last couple months. Dark armor does not need buffs. Dark armor does not need buffs. Dark armor does not need buffs.
There, did it stick yet? |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Oh you mean the part where you bring up Arcanaville's numerical analysis of defense sets? The kind that nobody has ever put forward in defense of their morbidly tiresome buff requests? Yeah I did read that, thanks for asking.
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I think this is the part to which Siolfir was referring.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Like I said, I don't see it in need of buffs, but I certainly am not going to argue so much to maintain the status quo - that's what the devs are for.
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Yeah, and you don't have to worry about whether the devs will take these requests seriously or not. The part that is annoying is that this record has been skipping for months now and reason itself is incapable of changing that.
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I've got a few Dark/Dark builds that I've sprinkled through the tank forums. Search for the name "Interruption" and posts by me.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
It's always fun watching Dech's tilt at his favorite windmill.
 Now, that said: I have a 50 Darkity/Dark tank that stinks on ice. (I know Dech's, it's only because I suck as a player.) However, I love this guys costume and concept, so against my better judgement, I got a theft of essence proc. Now, all I need is the rest of a build.  Anybody have a reasonable dark/dark tanker build laying around? I'd be highly appreciative. |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Actually for several pages all I've done is basically address the end use comparisons - that's it. It's been such an obvious weakness of the set for years that it is almost always the number one problem people complain about. How one can argue against it when speaking about SOs is beyond me. Other sets have weaknesses, so why argue against Dark's? It has always been about the use of endurance - that's all I've ever been trying to address. Arguing how a set is fantastic in comparison to others when using IOs to build around the main weakness isn't valid when we are speaking about a set as a whole, as you should always discuss it with using SOs in mind for the freebies, with no incarnate abilities to assist.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Oh, sure. I'm not asking for buffs to a set that is already proven to be a top performer, so I must be trolling. Come on, Jay. I know you're not stupid.
If you honestly think DA needs buffs, then do the math to demonstrate that it needs the buffs. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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I haven't done anything but address end use. I suggested buffing resists so that DR isn't required as much, I've also been asked to poll the playerbase in regards to cutting end use + heal in half for DR and we got the results we wanted from that poll. It's always been about normalizing end use to other sets.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Forget IOs. Arcana's analysis puts it above invuln on SOs.
Besides, the set is supposed to be average. They all are; it's balance. What Jay and the others don't understand is that they are asking for buffs to a set that has been demonstrated to be in no need of buffs. Any change to the game requires mathematical proof that the chamge should be considered. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Ok, so you just don't understand. You cannot buff the resists of an already strong set. Demonstrate why the end use is to high, then suggest changes. Show your work. Polls and feelings don't count.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Depending on the situation, the different heals from each set have their value.
If I'm fighting a lone AV and the RNG decides to hate me, then yes DR is painful. In that situation Healing Flames, Dull Pain, Earth's Embrace and Energize have greater value.
If I'm in a mob at full aggro cap, Dark Regen can shine like no other heal on a melee AT.
As much as I like Energize's endurance cost reduction, until I get a chance to slot it up properly I hate it's "weaker" heal. Especially compared to Healing Flames and Dark Regen. Does that mean I think it needs fixing? No. I just have to remember that it isn't the same as the others, and change my play accordingly. Same with Dark Regen.
Yes there are times when your to hit can be dropped badly. Taking on a x8 mission with CoT at low levels can be quite painful should you charge into a large mob or two, but in those situations I'll try and whittle down the mobs of Spectral Demons before charging in.
Dark Armor isn't for everyone, just like Stone Armor isn't for everyone. It almost seems like everyone's trying to homogenize the sets together. Let them have their unique flavors and mechanics.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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...actually polls do count, as we had many responses that explained thoughts on the idea and set as a whole... and there was math to back it up.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Ok, so you just don't understand. You cannot buff the resists of an already strong set. Demonstrate why the end use is to high, then suggest changes. Show your work. Polls and feelings don't count.
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If the resists are so uberomgwinnzorz then DR would be OP.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Exactly. At least admit there is a weakness when it comes to end burn using SOs - but he won't even go that far. |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Dark Armor isn't for everyone, just like Stone Armor isn't for everyone. It almost seems like everyone's trying to homogenize the sets together. Let them have their unique flavors and mechanics.
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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This.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Dark Armor isn't for everyone, just like Stone Armor isn't for everyone. It almost seems like everyone's trying to homogenize the sets together. Let them have their unique flavors and mechanics.
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I'm a big /DA fan, and yeah, it's burly for endurance on SOs, but not unmanagable by any stretch of the imagination. Especially with Fitness changes and Energy/Body mastery pools. Maybe its a matter of perspective. One of my first toons way back when CoH dropped was a BS/DA scrapper. Yeah, back when the toggles were mutually exclusive and cost WAY more than they do now.
Remember, /DA is the only (Brute) armor that lacks any Auto powers at all. It already pays less per resistance toggle than other sets: Brute numbers again, but DE, MC, and OS (powers that give resistance) are .21/s across the board. Fire, Elec, and Invuln all pay .26/s for their resistance toggles, and .21/s for their mez toggles (elec and invuln only). Of those, only /elec has higher base values for (26.25 vs. 22.5). Fire and Invuln also lack Psi resistance at all. While Dark is weak to knockback, it is also the only way to naturally get fear resistance outside of Willpower. (iirc) Rare, but when you need it it's REALLY nice. Remember /Elec's -KB is an auto that only works when "close" to the ground, and if you jump alot to reposition in combat, that can be annoying.
All sets should have differences in strength/weakness, and the idea that we have to normalize out weakness is silly. My only complaint with the set is the rediculously high cost of CoF, and even that is a minor concern. Other sets have to work with some auto powers with low base values, and /DA gets a choice between a couple mez toggles that are optional, even skippable. Build flexibility is something that I happen to value in a set. I dislike feeling forced to take every power in a given set.
As far as Dark Regen is concerned, name another self-heal (not destiny) that when well timed can result in a full health bar while laughing in Marauder's face during Nova Fist?
The high end cost and the chance of missing are the price we pay for an awesome heal. Don't care for it? Play something with a safer heal. As far as a combat only heal leaving you open to the "next alpha" if you leave a spawn with low HP - just jump into the middle of the next spawn and pop DR - full health and commence smashing.It's not a playstyle for everyone - sort of like how I don't like playing /WP. Great set, but to my taste.
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I freely admit the end cost is high. But that doesn't make it a weakness, and certainly not something that needs adjusted.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Exactly. At least admit there is a weakness when it comes to end burn using SOs - but he won't even go that far.
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Don't you dare put words in my mouth.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Dark Regen does not have a "weakness" to endurance burning. What it has is a different way of burning endurance. Its heal scales for fixed endurance, so its HPE can be manipulated in a way most heals can't. So DR offers the potential to players to have a very high heal per endurance point, balanced against the possibility it can generate a very low heal per endurance point under other circumstances.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Exactly. At least admit there is a weakness when it comes to end burn using SOs - but he won't even go that far.
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It has a weakness when it comes to endurance burning in the same sense invincibility has a weakness to endurance burning when compared to Mind Link. Its a weakness that is impossible to disentangle from its greatest strength, so its a weakness I would prefer the devs don't "fix."
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Hail of bullets can fail if you don't understand how math works. Oh wait, it still can't, actually, but you may believe that it can.
In much the same way, dark regeneration is essentially guaranteed not to fail in any circumstance where there are more than two targets and your tohit is not negative. Is it possible to have your tohit debuffed that severely? Yes, it is. It's also possible to ameliorate your situation before firing the heal, or to avoid getting into that situation in the first place. Basically what Dechs has been saying this entire time is that competent play is all it takes for dark regeneration to be the best heal in the game. That remains true even though it clearly isn't getting through to you.