Dark Amor....negative resistance
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-12-06 05:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Some people use Granite as a fall back, instead of running in it 24/7. I'm not saying it's your preferred choice, but it is a choice. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Any other armor set would work better in the same situation. I reiterate, if you picked Stone Armor and aren't using Granite, you picked the wrong armor set. The rest of the set is pretty terrible.
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I've avoided running in Granite if there's another tank on the team taking aggro. It allows me to attack more often and do more damage because I'm not suffering from the -rech, -dmg penalties of Granite. I don't bother being in Granite during the majority of a Hamidon Raid once the monster hunting is done. Especially if I'm Hami-bait. Granite isn't necessary at that point. Rooted, with Earth's Embrace recharging ASAP, is.
Those are just a couple of examples where I find running outside of Granite to be beneficial, and not a detriment. Of the Stone armor set I didn't bother picking up Brimstone so I'm not running all the toggles outside of Granite armor, so that does help on the end/sec. usage.
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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But that's the thing - if you're only using a couple of the armor toggles (Rock + Rooted or Minerals + Rooted), it's not more expensive than Dark Armor because the armors are more specialized. If you try to maximize protection, it's not more expensive than Dark Armor. In either case, you're not using as much endurance.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Some people use Granite as a fall back, instead of running in it 24/7. I'm not saying it's your preferred choice, but it is a choice.
I've avoided running in Granite if there's another tank on the team taking aggro. It allows me to attack more often and do more damage because I'm not suffering from the -rech, -dmg penalties of Granite. I don't bother being in Granite during the majority of a Hamidon Raid once the monster hunting is done. Especially if I'm Hami-bait. Granite isn't necessary at that point. Rooted, with Earth's Embrace recharging ASAP, is. Those are just a couple of examples where I find running outside of Granite to be beneficial, and not a detriment. Of the Stone armor set I didn't bother picking up Brimstone so I'm not running all the toggles outside of Granite armor, so that does help on the end/sec. usage. |
If you want protection from S/L/E (the most common types) you can choose Rock and Crystal Armors and leave Brimstone off - or completely untaken - and Rooted for mez protection - total cost of 0.728/sec. Dark has Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield for mez, and Cloak of Darkness for a total cost of 0.884/sec.
The damage aura is far more expensive for Stone Armor than for the other armor sets, but it's lower than Hot Feet which has a similar damage + slow effect and Hot Feet doesn't have the mag 2 immobilize (although it has a much larger AoE); yes the cost could be lower, but if you're using it you're going to be attracting attention and probably will want the extra protection from Granite.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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No I don't think so - there is nothing in stone that takes 1/3rd of your end bar every time you use it.
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Originally Posted by Errant
Stone Armor would like to tell you, "You're wrong."
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Fortunately, there are these enhancements called Endurance Reduction which can help with that, and since the power in question is so powerful that it can heal you to full health with just a few enemies hit, you really don't need to enhance much else other than recharge
As previously stated multiple times, the Theft of Essence proc makes a huge difference as well and overall Dark Armor benefits tremendously from intelligent use of IOs since they allow virtually all the negatives inherent in the powerset to be mitigated or outright cirucumvented (i.e. KB protection).
If you're going to limit the discussion to SOs only and count both Dark Regen and Cloak of Fear, you can probably make the case that DA is heavy in terms of endurance usage, though personally I find OG more effective and it costs next to nothing. I've played DA on SOs and while Dark Regeneration is a beast in terms of endurance cost, that's one power and a very good power at that. The rest of the set, aside from Cloak of Fear, isn't as bad as others like to make it out to (as another hyperbolic poster said, 'asthmatic') If you're playing with an SO build, slot end reduction in Dark Regen (and in your attacks, obviously). People make it sound like the endurance costs are so bad that you'll have to rest after every spawn or that you'll be running out of end and dying while trying to fight - and barring a truly terrible build that doesn't manage its attacks well, that just isn't the case. I notice the one making those 'asthmatic' claims never did bother to post his build as others requested.
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Is that because you are itching to tear his build apart, point, and laugh?
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I wouldn't put it quite so dramatically, but I would like to see someone making claims that blatantly contradict both my experience and the experience of other posters whom I consider to be very knowledgeable on this subject produce something to back up what he says. If the problem really is with the powerset and not with the build, that shouldn't be an issue.
Although I very much doubt such a player would listen to feedback even if he did post his build, it's very likely Dechs or others in this thread could provide help to improve it. So yes, I'd like to tear his build apart, mostly to understand how his experience could be anywhere near as bad as he claims and point out areas for improvement both for his benefit and that of anyone following this thread. Of course, the other possibility to consider is that he's merely trolling and there never was any build to examine, but that's as may be.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Is that because you are itching to tear his build apart, point, and laugh?
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Originally Posted by Justaris
I wouldn't put it quite so dramatically,
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But then I would offer honest advice that could have a serious impact on the success of the character. I really do want people to be able to enjoy Dark Armor like I do.
I just wouldn't pass up the opportunity to point out the problems with a build that "has no problems."
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One thing I would like to put out there.
Even though I, like others, have been built around the endurance cost of Dark Armor to make it work, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to the over all endurance cost of running the basic armors(not including CoF and OG) being lowered. Maybe even have one of the toggles changed to an auto. It would certainly open up other options for builds. I think changes like these would also quiet a lot of dissenting voices when it comes to dark armor.
I'm perfectly fine with the way Dark Regeneration is set up. Having a heal that strong, should cost as much as it does to use.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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See, I keep thinking the opposite - strengthen the resists so that you aren't using Dark Regen so much and normalizing the end use of the set to other armors.
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I'm not arguing against potential benefits/tweaks, but I do want to clear up the myth that DA uses the most... These are passive drains for the defensive toggles of Armor sets:
DA sans CoF .96
ElA .73
EA 1.04
FA .52
IA 1.04
Inv .73
Nin .62
Self-Empathy .26
SD .42
Stone .99 Granite .47
SR .78
Will .83
Clicks were not factored in (DR, HF, mez pro etc). DA ain't the worst, however, it is near the bottom of the pile, and DR's giant end cost doesn't help matters in actual play.
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Would you like to attempt to prove that Dark Armor is paying more endurance for its mitigation than other sets?|
Originally Posted by JayboH
See, I keep thinking the opposite - strengthen the resists so that you aren't using Dark Regen so much and normalizing the end use of the set to other armors.
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Just to pull out some comparative S/L numbers (using Tank numbers).
Dark Embrace: 30% resist for 0.21 end/second. You are paying 0.0070 endurance for every % of resist.
Fire Shield: 30% resist for 0.26 end/second. You are paying 0.00867 endurance for every % of resist.
Temp Invulnerability: 30% resist for 0.26 end/second. You are paying 0.00867 endurance for every % of resist.
Charged Shield: 35% resist for 0.26 end/second. You are paying 0.0074 endurance for every % of resist.
Huh, so far, it looks like Dark Armor is the most efficient mitigation you can receive. Any "normalization" might actually result in DA spending more endurance.
Your move.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Well for me that just proves DA is the worst offender even not counting CoF. |
Originally Posted by Errant
I'm not arguing against potential benefits/tweaks, but I do want to clear up the myth that DA uses the most... These are passive drains for the defensive toggles of Armor sets:
DA sans CoF .96 ElA .73 EA 1.04 FA .52 IA 1.04 Inv .73 Nin .62 Self-Empathy .26 SD .42 Stone .99 Granite .47 SR .78 Will .83 Clicks were not factored in (DR, HF, mez pro etc). DA ain't the worst, however, it is near the bottom of the pile, and DR's giant end cost doesn't help matters in actual play. |
First, I'd love to respec into CoF on any DA toon after I get to 50 (I have a 50 DM/DA scrapper and several /DAs at lower levels, I couldn't figure out a build with darkness mastery for my DM/DA with CoF that left me satisfied but I rerolled her into a DM/DA Brute that will take CoF - god knows what I'll do for her endurance, but we'll see). CoF is more useful on a toon that can hold his own after a certain level (Tough, Weave, yay more end usage) and you can dive in minions with no need to perma stun them. So the way I want to play in my two DA Brutes I still want to level up, it IS the worst numerically. When I get to level them I'll ask for advice because I plan to pick CoF ASAP - the problem is that they're stuck in that boring desert Praetoria town at like, level 18.
Second, yes EA and IA are very end heavy, they are quite a pain in that regard and in all my EA toons I hurried to 3-slot DOs in Stamina and endred in the attacks at 12, but you know it's a temporary thing because they have amazing end recovery powers before level 30 (well scrappers got changed as I see now, but they get energize at 28). My WM/EA Brute was very painful till ED, then I stopped worrying about endurance. My IA/FM Tanker was better because it was pre inherent stamina so I took Icicles after Energy Absorption. But for IA, EA and ELA I never cared about making end sustainable builds after the endmod power and it was all dandy.
Third - this is subjective because it's from my experience: SA has an atypical playstyle with most players I know. I know Stone Tankers that live in Granite and they don't need Tough to cap s/l res, that makes Granite end friendly (some of them made top end builds to offset most Granite penalties). Others (like my 50 elm/stone brute and a friend's SA/SS tanker) use Granite just for AVs or as a panic button - but playing like this means you won't toggle up minerals all the time or even crystal sometimes (like most of the ITF) - and brimstone is skippable anyway, even my IA Tanker soloed Croatoa fire missions with little worry (no Permafrost since it was pre inherent stamina so he had little fire res). I guess a WP player would hate playing the toggle game like I played my SA Brute but it's very effective and not very hard on the blue bar.
I knew DA wasn't the worst offender in passives if you skip CoF, but... The closest competitor (Invul, because it has no +end and you'll want tough and weave) is still way ahead. SR (which already had some complaints about being a bit heavy on end) can softcap without weave and you won't exactly gimp your toon without tough in some cases (like, scrapper with aid self, brute with mitigation and aid self - there was a thread about top end kat/regen builds that one of the top scrapper players said he didn't take Tough alone on a regen for not being worth it due to the lowish resists). Anyhow SR is still ahead and it doesn't have the zomg click heal.
Not saying DA is unplayable, but being the worst one (not counting CoF because I know most players don't pick it) outside of Stone running all the toggles considering only the armors without an endmod power, you can see why so many people complain about it.
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So, once you intentionally manipulate the numbers to skip CoF and so on, I have to toss this info right out the window due to bias.
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Originally Posted by Errant
I'm not arguing against potential benefits/tweaks, but I do want to clear up the myth that DA uses the most... These are passive drains for the defensive toggles of Armor sets:
DA sans CoF .96 ElA .73 EA 1.04 FA .52 IA 1.04 Inv .73 Nin .62 Self-Empathy .26 SD .42 Stone .99 Granite .47 SR .78 Will .83 Clicks were not factored in (DR, HF, mez pro etc). DA ain't the worst, however, it is near the bottom of the pile, and DR's giant end cost doesn't help matters in actual play. |
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You already know how this is going to go, as Healing Flames costs far less than DR, Invul has auto armors and has a decent amount of defense so you use DP less often (and it costs less than DR,) Elec uses less end in Energize that gives an end discount on top of PS, all of them have less toggles than DA, sooooo again, manipulation like this gets tossed right out the window.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Would you like to attempt to prove that Dark Armor is paying more endurance for its mitigation than other sets?
Just to pull out some comparative S/L numbers (using Tank numbers). Dark Embrace: 30% resist for 0.21 end/second. You are paying 0.0070 endurance for every % of resist. Fire Shield: 30% resist for 0.26 end/second. You are paying 0.00867 endurance for every % of resist. Temp Invulnerability: 30% resist for 0.26 end/second. You are paying 0.00867 endurance for every % of resist. Charged Shield: 35% resist for 0.26 end/second. You are paying 0.0074 endurance for every % of resist. Huh, so far, it looks like Dark Armor is the most efficient mitigation you can receive. Any "normalization" might actually result in DA spending more endurance. Your move. |
Thanks for giving me permission to reply at the end of your post, I guess.
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Exactly. I am not saying it is unplayable, but a few in this thread seem to imply the weaknesses don't exist.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Not saying DA is unplayable, but being the worst one (not counting CoF because I know most players don't pick it) outside of Stone running all the toggles considering only the armors without an endmod power, you can see why so many people complain about it.
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
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(not including end reduction)|
Originally Posted by JayboH
So, once you intentionally manipulate the numbers to skip CoF and so on, I have to toss this info right out the window due to bias.
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DA uses 1.75 end/s w/ all toggles running
SA uses 2.02 end/s w/ all non-granite toggles running
Regardless, I love my DA/StJ Tank
If we really want to get into it...SR/SS is a endurance junkie just for the sole reason SR has no end management capabilities.
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Yeah, SA doesn't get many complaints because either people play the not so fun toggle/untoggle mini game or live in Granite.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
(not including end reduction)
DA uses 1.75 end/s w/ all toggles running SA uses 2.02 end/s w/ all non-granite toggles running Regardless, I love my DA/StJ Tank If we really want to get into it...SR/SS is a endurance junkie just for the sole reason SR has no end management capabilities. |
SR when it was very popular used to get a fair share of people asking about advice on end management, and Body Mastery is very popular with them for PP, so you might even say SR could be the borderline in what lots of players consider tolerable.
Personally, I think Dark Armor is a bit End heavy, but not cripplingly so. And there are other tweaks I would rather see it get before any reduction(s) in End usage: the oft-mentioned boost to Cloak of Fear's accuracy, knockback protection, and the To-Hit debuff resistance mentioned in this thread for three.
Even without such tweaks, though, it seems to be a decent set in my experience.
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No other armor set covers you in Crystal or Lava. Granite cannot be changed to be Crystal or Lava. Aesthetics is a very valid reason to both choose Stone Armor and choose not to use Granite.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Any other armor set would work better in the same situation.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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...and now, let's see who runs out of end faster by hitting the heal when needed... yeah, again, DA will burn far more than SA.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
(not including end reduction)
DA uses 1.75 end/s w/ all toggles running SA uses 2.02 end/s w/ all non-granite toggles running Regardless, I love my DA/StJ Tank If we really want to get into it...SR/SS is a endurance junkie just for the sole reason SR has no end management capabilities. |
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Not manipulation, just showing numbers with common practice. Many don't take CoF, for both the lack of mitigation provided for some AT's as well as the prohibitive endurance cost. You objected when I stated Stone cost more, since most don't run outta Granite, nor run with Brimstone Armor, so my numbers reflected that as well. I only ran the common Defensive Toggles... (so no Brimstone for Stone, no AAO or Grant Cover for Shield, etc.)|
Originally Posted by JayboH
So, once you intentionally manipulate the numbers to skip CoF and so on, I have to toss this info right out the window due to bias.
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Again, I have Multiple DA toons, and don't feel the Endurance use is prohibitive. It can be overcome on SO slotting. CoF is a little broke though, at that cost and being a Soft-Control it should be Mag 3 with chance for 4, or lower the end cost and make it mag 2 chance for 3 across the board... not Mag 2 on some AT's and Mag 3 on others.
But I have a feeling this isn't a discussion, so there's little thought/option of swaying you to an alternate view. C'est la vie... it's a game, not a lifestyle, so enjoy waht you do, and I'll enjoy mine.
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you're not constantly hitting DR, if anything, I'm a bit besmirched that Warshades imo, have a better version.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
...and now, let's see who runs out of end faster by hitting the heal when needed... yeah, again, DA will burn far more than SA.
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Cloak of Fear is mag 2 across all ATs, perhaps it was fixed during the time I stopped playing but it's no longer mag 2 on brutes and scrappers. Didn't get it yet on my broot but CoData and Mids show it as mag 2 for all ATs.|
Originally Posted by Errant
Not manipulation, just showing numbers with common practice. Many don't take CoF, for both the lack of mitigation provided for some AT's as well as the prohibitive endurance cost. You objected when I stated Stone cost more, since most don't run outta Granite, nor run with Brimstone Armor, so my numbers reflected that as well. I only ran the common Defensive Toggles... (so no Brimstone for Stone, no AAO or Grant Cover for Shield, etc.)
Again, I have Multiple DA toons, and don't feel the Endurance use is prohibitive. It can be overcome on SO slotting. CoF is a little broke though, at that cost and being a Soft-Control it should be Mag 3 with chance for 4, or lower the end cost and make it mag 2 chance for 3 across the board... not Mag 2 on some AT's and Mag 3 on others. But I have a feeling this isn't a discussion, so there's little thought/option of swaying you to an alternate view. C'est la vie... it's a game, not a lifestyle, so enjoy waht you do, and I'll enjoy mine. |
Anyway, sure not a discussion that will change anyone's minds, but in normal gameplay you'll be using your damage aura basically all the time, which puts DA in second place after Stone.
Well I'll play my DM/DA more later and see if I can get her out of than stupid Praetoria (I hate soloing but even if there were people there - and this on freedom lol - I'd still want to check the storyline because I know I'll never roll a Praetorian again), and since I'm going the CoF route I'm thinking about doing different stuff like slotting just one recharge and three endreds on DR and skipping Cloak of Darkness for now since I already have CJ and will have Tough soon. When I get to 32 I'll frankenslot her and see how it goes.
The good thing about her being a brute now (reroll of my 2nd 50, a scrapper) is that I can slot all attacks for endred instead of damage for now, so I'm soloing at 0/x3 quite well at level 16 (just got there so didn't train to pick dark regen yet, tho siphon life and the occasional respite have been keeping me alive).
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The numbers for Shield are very low because you don't include Against All Odds, but you included Chilling Embrace for Ice. They're both -damage, and don't even try to say that most Shield characters don't use it. If you run all of Shield's toggles, you're at 0.78; if you skip Grant Cover you're at 0.624.|
Originally Posted by Errant
I'm not arguing against potential benefits/tweaks, but I do want to clear up the myth that DA uses the most... These are passive drains for the defensive toggles of Armor sets:
DA sans CoF .96 ElA .73 EA 1.04 FA .52 IA 1.04 Inv .73 Nin .62 Self-Empathy .26 SD .42 Stone .99 Granite .47 SR .78 Will .83 Clicks were not factored in (DR, HF, mez pro etc). DA ain't the worst, however, it is near the bottom of the pile, and DR's giant end cost doesn't help matters in actual play. |
If you're listing "common" configurations then drop Brimstone from Stone which takes it down to 0.73; Fire and Cold damage isn't common enough to make it necessary and it's not even on most of the Stone Armor builds I've seen.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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It is manipulating the numbers, since you said you didn't but then included Brimstone.|
Originally Posted by Errant
You objected when I stated Stone cost more, since most don't run outta Granite, nor run with Brimstone Armor, so my numbers reflected that as well. I only ran the common Defensive Toggles... (so no Brimstone for Stone, no AAO or Grant Cover for Shield, etc.)
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Rock Armor = 0.26
Crystal Armor = 0.26
Rooted = 0.208
That's 0.728. Which is less than the Dark Armor number you have listed without Cloak of Fear.
Brimstone adds 0.26 to make it 0.988.
Against All Odds is a defensive toggle. It has -damage, and is extremely common among Shield characters.
And as mentioned, Cloak of Fear was "fixed" to only be mag 2 for Brutes sometime around/after it was ported over to Tankers. Prior to that, it was mag 3 for Brutes and 2 for Scrappers and Stalkers.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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But since scrappers (and brutes) can get 59.4% with 3 res IOs in the same power, it shouldn't be hard to cap a scrapper since it's only about 5% more you need to get to 75% compared with the tanker to get 90%.