Villian Powerpools
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-03 14:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by DMystic
What did People that only played Blueside do? They responded with too bad so sad.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
And anyone who says "Eeew, I hate villains all the zones are just like Mercy Island it suuuux!" well... Okay, fine. You don't need your shiny Patron sets, then.
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It's about time Heroes got their own Patron pools if anything.
The question is, should they be comparable to the villain pools in terms of thematics* (Synapse as the electric counterpart to Scirocco, Numina to GW for magic/death powers etc) or cover new thematic ground?
Both approaches are open to debate, but for the former, how do Back Alley Brawler, Synapse, Numina and Positron sound for patrons?
*Note: similar thematics do not mean clones of the villain pools. Synapse uses his electric powers differently than Scirocco does.
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Yeah I wouldn't have a problem with a modicum of 'crossover' thematically since, as you said, the villains and heroes do theirs differently.
I'd be more partial to Sister Psyche as a Patron than Numina though, but I just prefer psychics to ghosts 
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This.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
That's an easy fix: just roll villains. You get Invader easy that way too.
And anyone who says "Eeew, I hate villains all the zones are just like Mercy Island it suuuux!" well... Okay, fine. You don't need your shiny Patron sets, then. |
I would just make it a villain, unlock the patron then go to hero side. It doesn't take that long to get up to 34.
I honestly just make all of my new alts either rogue or vig so I can hit both sides at any time. I hate being stuck on one side while some tf/sf is forming on the other and I want to stay on the guy I'm playing, H/V merits be damned.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz. But that makes it incredibly hard to have your cake, eat it, then whine about not having any cake, too.
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I have no vendetta.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
One of the main arguments against the first post of this thread, exemplified here, is that long-standing forum vendettas dictate that this game system should never be changed because heroes have had it too good for too long. Maybe you guys should take a look inward to see whether this is something worth harboring disdain over.
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I just think the patron power pools should remain just that. And I think Hero Patron Pools should be avoided BECAUSE of the fact that so many people complained about such things.
"What?! This Power Pool is linked to RP story that doesn't make sense for my character but I want it!"
or
"I'm nobody's lackey/sidekick! Why would I do this?!"
Which are the complaints that came about from PPPs.
I don't even go for redside epics for themes all the time. Sometimes I go for them for the simple reason that they get the toggle armor at as a tier 1 (corrs/defenders dont) and their toggle armors are useable with ANY concept as they just give them a basic gow.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Heh I end up having cake and having some more left over after eating some and still get all the stuff I want without H/V merits.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
But that makes it incredibly hard to have your cake, eat it, then whine about not having any cake, too.
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Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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*Looks at own post, looks at response regarding heroes "having it good"; sees no relation*|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Maybe you guys should take a look inward to see whether this is something worth harboring disdain over.
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Uh... Is this maybe a sensitive issue for you? I mean, I'm all for antagonizing religiously-blue-siders as much as the next guy, but "you could roll a villain" is pretty far detached from "heroes need to get shafted."
Arachnos sets are Arachnos. There is a story-driven implementation with the Patron sets. While I admit to getting my giggles for telling bloobs to stop waiting for candy to fall into their mouths, it has everything to do with the players and nothing to do with "devs hate villains."
So no, heroes should not get Patron pools for the sake of equality; that's a matter of implementation. And stubborn blue-siders shouldn't get them either; that's a matter of orneriness.
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Hell, i have a Night Widow who will never have the PPPs for concept reasons (she was originally made to go hero ASAP and was about level 23 when side switching went live), and since VEATs have no access to APPs that means she will only ever have access to the standard powersets. Yet i'm okay with that. i also have a hero who went redside a couple months ago to unlock PPP access. While there i also picked up a bunch of badges, but forgot Invader. That's okay since it just means i'll do it again sometime. The only reason i went back to blueside so quickly is to finish off some the late game arcs, especially the Praetorian stuff.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
*Looks at own post, looks at response regarding heroes "having it good"; sees no relation*
Uh... Is this maybe a sensitive issue for you? I mean, I'm all for antagonizing religiously-blue-siders as much as the next guy, but "you could roll a villain" is pretty far detached from "heroes need to get shafted." Arachnos sets are Arachnos. There is a story-driven implementation with the Patron sets. While I admit to getting my giggles for telling bloobs to stop waiting for candy to fall into their mouths, it has everything to do with the players and nothing to do with "devs hate villains." So no, heroes should not get Patron pools for the sake of equality; that's a matter of implementation. And stubborn blue-siders shouldn't get them either; that's a matter of orneriness. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I'm against Heroes (or anyone else) having auto-access to the Patron Pools.
The patron pools are thematically linked to ... the patrons (who are Villains)
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All of the patron pools have pets, which all summon villain NPCs. So they are in effect linked specifically to specific patrons.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
In what way is it tied to any villain? It has a name and an arc you have to run, but nothing about the powers ties you to any particular patron.
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I'm not sure if something could be any more linked to being a villain than a patron pool called "Mu Mastery" or "Leviathan mastery".
It makes no sense thematically for Heroes to have automatic access to this.
It's also one of the very few decent perks for being a Villain in the first place (who still have to do the arc to unlock them).
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Which is why in myself post I suggested that maybe make a undercover arc so that it makes sense to for your character to have the pools. I mean taking tech to use againest them is nto far fetched in comics.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm against Heroes (or anyone else) having auto-access to the Patron Pools.
The patron pools are thematically linked to ... the patrons (who are Villains) All of the patron pools have pets, which all summon villain NPCs. So they are in effect linked specifically to specific patrons. I'm not sure if something could be any more linked to being a villain than a patron pool called "Mu Mastery" or "Leviathan mastery". It makes no sense thematically for Heroes to have automatic access to this. It's also one of the very few decent perks for being a Villain in the first place (who still have to do the arc to unlock them). |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I have no vendetta.
I just think the patron power pools should remain just that. And I think Hero Patron Pools should be avoided BECAUSE of the fact that so many people complained about such things. "What?! This Power Pool is linked to RP story that doesn't make sense for my character but I want it!" or "I'm nobody's lackey/sidekick! Why would I do this?!" Which are the complaints that came about from PPPs. I don't even go for redside epics for themes all the time. Sometimes I go for them for the simple reason that they get the toggle armor at as a tier 1 (corrs/defenders dont) and their toggle armors are useable with ANY concept as they just give them a basic gow. |
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Ok, heroes already can get Patron pools, so that part of your argument is arrleady moot. We're not even talking about that. I'm saying since the devs already gave the go ahead for Blue people to have those pools maybe they should give a way to get them with out having to go through 20 something tips+Moral missions which, when you take in account the stuff you have to do in those missions (how many people do you have to whack?), make alot less sense for your heroic character than those the pools.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
*Looks at own post, looks at response regarding heroes "having it good"; sees no relation*
Uh... Is this maybe a sensitive issue for you? I mean, I'm all for antagonizing religiously-blue-siders as much as the next guy, but "you could roll a villain" is pretty far detached from "heroes need to get shafted." Arachnos sets are Arachnos. There is a story-driven implementation with the Patron sets. While I admit to getting my giggles for telling bloobs to stop waiting for candy to fall into their mouths, it has everything to do with the players and nothing to do with "devs hate villains." So no, heroes should not get Patron pools for the sake of equality; that's a matter of implementation. And stubborn blue-siders shouldn't get them either; that's a matter of orneriness. |
I agree with the storyline arguments, but the problem is that the development already invalidated it when they allowed any arc to unlock all patron pools. This was a quality of life improvement but it makes no sense that working for Black Scorpion will let you master something that can only be taught by Ghost Widow.
That really only leaves the balance issue. It is balanced that you have to run the arc to unlock the pools. I don't know of its balanced to change sides first. I would be in favor of the undercover hero arc that would allow heroes to unlock the pools without changing sides.
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No, they didn't.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
I'm saying since the devs already gave the go ahead for Blue people to have those pools maybe they should give a way to get them with out having to go through 20 something tips+Moral missions which,
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They didn't give "Blue people" the go ahead to have those pools.
Only redside faction characters can unlock the arcs, only redside faction characters can unlock the Patron Pools.
You can switch sides back to blue if you like after that, but that's up to you.
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And you end up with a Blue character with the pools. Sounds like they were ok with giving blue characters the pools to me. Otherwise they would have just locked it down to Red from the get go characters only
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
No, they didn't.
They didn't give "Blue people" the go ahead to have those pools. Only redside faction characters can unlock the arcs, only redside faction characters can unlock the Patron Pools. You can switch sides back to blue if you like after that, but that's up to you. |
I'll toss my vote to adding heroic patron powers and options that aren't carbon copies. Gives a little more variety to the potential power selections and adds parity between redside and blueside. Sure, it's a little extra development time, but if it can breathe a little life into the mostly dull signature heroes we have now, I'd say it's well worth the effort.
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No it sounds like they were ok with a blueside character taking the time to do the morality arcs, switch sides to red, do the patron arc and unlock the pool and then take the time to do all of the morality arcs again to go back to blueside if they really really wanted to.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
And you end up with a Blue character with the pools. Sounds like they were ok with giving blue characters the pools to me. Otherwise they would have just locked it down to Red from the get go characters only
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So yeah, they're OK with you putting in the effort to acquire Villain Patron Power Pools for your Hero.
You're reasoning, taken to the absurd, can be read like this:
The devs are ok with people being L50, so why not just let them press a button at character gen to be auto-50?
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
No it sounds like they were ok with a blueside character taking the time to do the morality arcs, switch sides to red, do the patron arc and unlock the pool and then take the time to do all of the morality arcs again to go back to blueside if they really really wanted to.
So yeah, they're OK with you putting in the effort to acquire Villain Patron Power Pools for your Hero. |
Oh, so you've shifted from not ok, to OK if you put in effort. So I guess it is ok after all.
Also I never said hand it over. I said in my first post they should put in a arc you have to do to get it.
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You're reasoning, taken to the absurd, can be read like this: The devs are ok with people being L50, so why not just let them press a button at character gen to be auto-50? |
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You're idea circumvents the entire theme of the patron pools though.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Oh, so you've shifted from not ok, to OK if you put in effort. So I guess it is ok after all.
Also I never said hand it over. I said in my first post they should put in a arc you have to do to get it. |
The "undercover" idea doesn't justify summoning Night Widows, Mu Strikers or tapping into the power of the Leviathan.
If you want to argue for Heroic Patron Pools that have to be unlocked by being a Hero/Vig, I'd be all for it because I'd love more options - even though it would mean my Villains would need to switch sides if they wanted them.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
nice strawman
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I said, "taken to the absurd".
I'll just like to add to my post, that though I like the way it is set up, it wouldn't fuss me if there was a Paragon Markert token that granted the patron pools.
Have one way to earn it ingame on the cheap. Another way for conveince. But don't bother with over much dev time making new arcs.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
One of the main arguments against the first post of this thread, exemplified here, is that long-standing forum vendettas dictate that this game system should never be changed because heroes have had it too good for too long. Maybe you guys should take a look inward to see whether this is something worth harboring disdain over.
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Long standing Vendetta has nothing to do with it.
If you read the rest of my post you'd see that I support Hero Patron Pools that are different from the Villain ones.
I'm against Heros getting the Villain pools without putting in the effort. It took years to get Patron Pools to be balanced against the APPs, for Heroes to simply get them by doing a singular arc feels wrong to me.
Probably because I'm too vested in what it took to get the changes,
however I fail to see how having Hero Pools isn't a fair compromise.
And anyone who says "Eeew, I hate villains all the zones are just like Mercy Island it suuuux!" well... Okay, fine. You don't need your shiny Patron sets, then.