Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Joyrock wanted me to bring this one up at the Pummit...I told him no.
|
Originally Posted by Lothic
In a perfect game we would have:
A male "package" slider |
The pack isn't ideal, but come on people--put a pair of stockings under those skirts or make the character a lizardperson or zombie and the shock value completely disappears. If you choose to traipse around with your butt hanging out because you ONLY use the default costume and always build hot girls then part of that is on you. I tend to like the revealing parts because they stack better with underlying garments and because on a robot/zombie/lion/ape/whatever they allow far more combinations of parts than a hardcoded full body covering does.
The only top that is truly revealing is the witch one, mainly because you can't put anything on under it. I would like to see jackets for ladies too, but mainly open ones, for the specific purpose of layering.
Quote:
I understand that particular suggestion usually gets mentioned as a "joke idea" whenever anyone starts discussing more serious ideas. But in the interest of full equality and on the off-chance there are a few people who actually want that as a serious option I figured it ought to be included in my "perfect game" scenario. |
Originally Posted by Firemoth
Joyrock wanted me to bring this one up at the Pummit...I told him no.
|
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
Hair.|
Originally Posted by Frostbiter
Sadly, this isn't the first pack that has missing female pieces for no reason. Take a look at the magic pack. Males and huge can use the occult collar but females can't. There's no reason for it either.
|
Sure, one can argue that the sensible person would select a hairstyle that wouldn't clip, but I can imagine a significant proportion of forum-goers who would rage at the idiocy of releasing a costume part that clips so badly with so many of their favorite hairstyles, or that they have to look at other people's horribly clipping costumes. And that, I believe is a pretty good reason for not including it. Disappointing, but understandable.
That said, I too am disappointed that I can't kit out a lady cow-poke with the gunslinger costume set. On the other hand, I'm not too disappointed that I don't get that silly gunslinger jacket. UNDERARM ROPES!?! What the heck!?!
Quote:
I can see the response to this now:|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
And Positron, who used to have a say over the art department, is still harping on female henches as harems, despite the fact that we already have female 'pets' (Fortunatas, Seers, and the harloty harlequins) and YOU GAVE US A PROSTITUTE COSTUME FOR PLAYERS.
|
"Yes, but you can't make THOSE pets do emotes and interact with you!"
which still earns an /e facepalm in my book.
Another way to look at it is that females are good enough to beat up and kill/arrest (villain/hero), but not to have work for you, because then the only jobs they can do are harem/prostitute jobs. (According to the answers I've been given at the M&G and Pummit)
Quote:
I'll buy it |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
. I hope everyone boycotts this set until there's a real female gunslinger costume added to it.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
The male hairstyles I use (ponytail, barbarian, and swabby from the hats) clip horribly with the high collar.
|
Originally Posted by Red_Gren
Hair.
Sure, one can argue that the sensible person would select a hairstyle that wouldn't clip, but I can imagine a significant proportion of forum-goers who would rage at the idiocy of releasing a costume part that clips so badly with so many of their favorite hairstyles, or that they have to look at other people's horribly clipping costumes. And that, I believe is a pretty good reason for not including it. Disappointing, but understandable. That said, I too am disappointed that I can't kit out a lady cow-poke with the gunslinger costume set. On the other hand, I'm not too disappointed that I don't get that silly gunslinger jacket. UNDERARM ROPES!?! What the heck!?! |
Quote:
Perhaps the Devs could make some characters with their new slutty costume items and actually earn that grant with some in-game ERP. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
So what we need is for a player to give the devs a serious financial grant and say "Go nuts!"
|
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
As to the issue of having to make double parts of the women...
Why did we need two gloves (which really look a bit out of place with the rest of the Gunslinger & Prostitute set, btw)? Make one set of gloves and instead make second option for the legs - chaps for instance. Or pantaloons. Something.
Just review what all the elements are and make reasonable trade offs instead of the lazy approach currently in vogue.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
Wow. These are strong words from someone I'd usually consider to be a level-headed and dedicated-to-the-franchise poster.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm not buying the Gunslinger and Prostitute Pack.
To Second Measure and Brian Clayton: Your art department is out of control.
Not happy with this. I hope everyone boycotts this set until there's a real female gunslinger costume added to it. |
And as much as one artist to another I'd like to show solidarity to the arts team (it can be hard and at time thankless work doing creative production line stuff), the three criticisms leveled here at the art team and management ring true.
Question is, how do they give their artists room to breath and flow creatively while managing and correcting the current lapses? I personally hate project management (the role, not necessarily the people). But, as things like the purported disappointing sales of consumables indicate, IMO long term, the Paragon Market is going to sink or swim on the merits of the artists they work with and the system's ability to consistently deliver.
The costumes pieces themselves (and the art of the powersets) are their own best advertising with the current F2P model. F2P, preem and VIP players who aren't devotees of the forum and the game see someone running buy with something cool and decide they too want it. Ask about said part or powerset. Get told in game by other players where to find it. Then if able, spend $$$ on points to buy it. Dollars to dimes, long term this is where the majority of their revenue beyond VIP subscriptions is going to come from.
As a result, I'm thinking these deficiencies regarding how art is interfacing with the player feedback, revisions, management of bug reports, etc. needs to be addressed somehow and soon. And again I'm not saying "clamp down!" because that will kill what is truly good in the art department. But something in the workflow does seem off. At least in the results. And as I supported in another post: if it is an issue of time--then take the time you need to do it right and establish a system for farming out some of the raw production work on various sets to contractor artists. Sheesh--you guys are in the bay area. Loads of good artists there looking for part time work without full time commitment. Take advantage of it.
Or hell, establish a sub studio out here in NYC. Tons of fashion forward artists here who could fit the bill as well, working on an as needed basis.
Quote:
Is the perception still there if the female MM pets were fully clothed? Would anyone assume a Knives of Artemis MM set would be abused for roleplay prostitution purposes? I'd sooner think a KoA pet would turn on its male master for presuming to be the top. And yes, we the gays do roleplay Masters over the male MM pets. Its just but as obvious to the watchful eye because male pets are fully clothed. They'll never allow a male MM pet set with bare chests or just briefs if thats any consolation.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
At best the idea that they are going to "avoid prostitution" by this decision is a convenient secondary Dev excuse. Trust me when I say the REAL excuse is that they just don't want to spend the time and effort on it. I've been a software engineer for almost 20 years so I can tell when a Dev is using something like "we don't want people to abuse female pets" as a smoke screen for -real- excuses.
Besides even if I'm wrong and we must take Positron at his word on this that the MAIN reason is the "avoiding prostitution" theory then I could only consider that to be absolutely hypocritical on his part in light of the player character costume items available to us. So there are our choices: either Posi's being disingenuous or hypocritical - take your pick.  |
Female costumes definitely need work, no question. And I'm sure the Devs are reading in support even if Marketing/Legal are barring them from comment. At some point though, the sexism trickles downward from corporate/Korea. It's not just a sexism issue, its a culture-clash issue too.
Quote:
Most of the long hairstyles clip with pretty much all the jackets too, as well as clipping horribly with capes. I guess we should remove the option for female characters to wear capes then?
|
Originally Posted by Red_Gren
Hair.
Sure, one can argue that the sensible person would select a hairstyle that wouldn't clip, but I can imagine a significant proportion of forum-goers who would rage at the idiocy of releasing a costume part that clips so badly with so many of their favorite hairstyles, or that they have to look at other people's horribly clipping costumes. And that, I believe is a pretty good reason for not including it. Disappointing, but understandable. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
lol I already bought it too...|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'll buy it
|
I hope there is a later patch coming to add some suggested pieces and fix gender differences, pre-tint and clipping issues.
Quote:
Speaking of gloves, as of the current live version, neither of these gloves, including the smaller of the two without the skull are accessible when wearing a trench coat (should you want to piece together a real female gunslinger).|
Originally Posted by Chyll
Why did we need two gloves (which really look a bit out of place with the rest of the Gunslinger & Prostitute set, btw)? Make one set of gloves and instead make second option for the legs - chaps for instance.
|
More inaccessibility: when wearing a hat, the female gunslinger face is not available at all.
Quote:
Not under, but over works pretty well with those pieces.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The only top that is truly revealing is the witch one, mainly because you can't put anything on under it. I would like to see jackets for ladies too, but mainly open ones, for the specific purpose of layering.
|
Also, the Wedding Pack is where I would've started with the whole "dress in lingerie to fight crime" routine. And I fully (ab)use many of the suspect pieces, including mocking them by going Witch Lace top and bottom on a character named Loose Morals when the Magic pack first came out whose bio included amnesia and an immediate reaction on seeing a mirror as "What am I wearing? Ohmygod, I'm a ****!"
More on-topic, I'm unlikely to buy anything in this pack but not because it's slutty: it's because I don't have gunslinger character concepts and there are lots of other options available that I already have and don't have to pay points for. But there really, really should have been an outfit like the Rancher outfit on the page linked a while back.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
"Oh, move it your royal ponceyness! If you want a job doing..."|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Princesses don't fight evil. Princesses hang around in towers waiting to be rescued. If I don't get armor for females I won't be buying the medieval pack. And by "armor" I mean "proper armor," not like in that big fantasy MMO which shall remain nameless.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
Working for someone else by definition hampers creativity. Working for an established IP even more so. If anything, I think they need to set more rigid constraints on their creative teams. When you give your artists (and writers) full license to do what they want we get crap like the CoT v2.0 and the Reichsmann TFs.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Question is, how do they give their artists room to breath and flow creatively while managing and correcting the current lapses?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rubberlad
Is the perception still there if the female MM pets were fully clothed?
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
Um...because "cow skulls" apparently make things "Gunslinger"? |
Originally Posted by Chyll
As to the issue of having to make double parts of the women...
Why did we need two gloves (which really look a bit out of place with the rest of the Gunslinger & Prostitute set, btw)? Make one set of gloves and instead make second option for the legs - chaps for instance. Or pantaloons. Something. Just review what all the elements are and make reasonable trade offs instead of the lazy approach currently in vogue. |
But yeah, I agree with the lazy part there.
Quote:
That's fine, as far as I can recall, I've never seen you to have a healthy piece of constructive criticism or complaint directed back at the game anyway. So, I'd have expected nothing less.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'll buy it
|
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Lisa strides into this thread, and looks about warily.
I actually bought this pack, I played around with it, and I made a very cute curly haired blonde Fire/Fire Brute who looks like she is dressed for Christmas.
She does not look trashy, nor does she look like a prostitute.
I do think we should be able to choose our own two colors on the striped top, instead of having one chosen for us.
Sexy Jay, if you are reading this, I fear that your audience wants to dress their female toons like men...the less shapely the better.
Once we have all the bulky Baron Jackets we can handle, then and only then should you make us some pretty lady things.
Pancake, I don't want my female toons to look like hulking men......
Oh wells....I go on record to say that except for the pre-tinting of one stripe, I am enjoying this pack and think it was points well spent..except for that annoying pre-tinted stripe...
Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
Quote:
Wait, so I have a Gunslinger MM primary?
|
Originally Posted by Firemoth
Um...because "cow skulls" apparently make things "Gunslinger"?
But yeah, I agree with the lazy part there. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Again I never said the Devs concerns about sexism were not legitimate. That kind of thing will always play a part in a business situation like this.|
Originally Posted by Rubberlad
Is the perception still there if the female MM pets were fully clothed? Would anyone assume a Knives of Artemis MM set would be abused for roleplay prostitution purposes? I'd sooner think a KoA pet would turn on its male master for presuming to be the top. And yes, we the gays do roleplay Masters over the male MM pets. Its just but as obvious to the watchful eye because male pets are fully clothed. They'll never allow a male MM pet set with bare chests or just briefs if thats any consolation.
Female costumes definitely need work, no question. And I'm sure the Devs are reading in support even if Marketing/Legal are barring them from comment. At some point though, the sexism trickles downward from corporate/Korea. It's not just a sexism issue, its a culture-clash issue too. |
I'd just rather Posi tell us something concrete and truthful like "we can't give you female/customizable MM pets because we can't justify the time and effort it would take to make them" instead of sticking to the semi-belittling idea that "we can't give you those things because we don't trust our playerbase not to go wild with them by making millions of pimps-n-hos".
I already accept the idea that a few misguided people would abuse the feature - those few could be easily handled through the proper channels. But the implication that EVERYONE would go nuts and the game would be DOOOOMMMED because of it is either laughably naive or painfully hypocritical on Posi's part.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
Hah...see Sexy Jay, this is what your audience wants.....I sure don't, but I am outnumbered.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
"Oh, move it your royal ponceyness! If you want a job doing..."
|
Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
Quote:
It's not as much whats in the packs that is the problem as the total lack of other stuff, more often the stuff that was asked for A LOT. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The pack isn't ideal, but come on people--put a pair of stockings under those skirts or make the character a lizardperson or zombie and the shock value completely disappears. If you choose to traipse around with your butt hanging out because you ONLY use the default costume and always build hot girls then part of that is on you. I tend to like the revealing parts because they stack better with underlying garments and because on a robot/zombie/lion/ape/whatever they allow far more combinations of parts than a hardcoded full body covering does.
The only top that is truly revealing is the witch one, mainly because you can't put anything on under it. I would like to see jackets for ladies too, but mainly open ones, for the specific purpose of layering. |
i.e.. more jackets for women, chaps and belts/holsters, stuff like that. Instead we got the Saloon outfit which, while it can be used to make stuff look good, is NOT a Gunslinger outfit. The male/huge models DID get a Gunslinger outfit, even if bits of that are quite silly too, and pre-tinted (bad art team! BAD!)
The women did NOT. THAT is the problem.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
I have very little stake in this conversation, mainly because I do not play female characters. (Or Huge model, for that matter. I tend to visualize myself as my characters and, well, I'm closest to the standard "male" character model :P) I will probably be buying the pack (eventually) because I really like the male costume.
However, I do want to point out that this is the first pack to be released where I have felt that the female costume did not match the pack title in the least.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.