City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Gender Equality in Costumes - A lack thereof

Ad Astra

By Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-29 06:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend View Post
If they make, say, a Retro 1950s Sci Fi costume like they discussed at the Player Summit, and the female version has a skirt instead of pants for our space cadet, I'm fine with that.
I wouldn't be... only because it would be a missed opportunity for some foil jodhpurs!

 

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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum View Post
But that's the value of a market-based system. If we can SHOW that developing these assets pays for itself (and reasonable profit) then it makes sense to invest in expanding the dev team and making them available.
My point was what argument was Brand X even making against the hypothetical "Perfect" game having those features? The implication was that having them would somehow detract from the perceived "perfection" of the hypothetical game somehow. It really had nothing, or very little, to do with the main argument here. So basically I agree with what you're saying, It just isn't what I was talking about in the quoted segment.

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Okay really? Really? Had to start a whole thread about this when it was going on in the Feedback Thread?
Because not everyone reads the beta forums. The more people complain, the greater the chance they'll actually listen.

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Barbarian wasn't much different from the males, in that they had nothing but show skin pieces as well.
No, the Barbarian pack wasn't in and of itself sexist. I'm all in favor of equal-opportunity near-nudity. And as an added bonus, the female top showed off your character's six-pack. Here they had a perfect opportunity to show off a sexy set that wasn't sexist and yet they still fouled it up in the marketing. The male characters in the preview looked tough and scary. The female character looked like Santa's Sexy Helper.

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Still, just retreading the Feedback thread and what makes anyone think this will get more dev attention?

I bet it gets the same dev attention.
None? You're probably right. But at least we can't say we didn't try.

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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend View Post
And my argument is that if they have to make a choice between giving the girls a Knight or a Princess costume, or a Gunslinger or a Saloon Girl costume, go with the Knight and Gunslinger. It's also a gameplay issue: I can't make action-y superheroines with this kind of stuff. If given the choice, err on the side of Badass.
Princesses don't fight evil. Princesses hang around in towers waiting to be rescued. If I don't get armor for females I won't be buying the medieval pack. And by "armor" I mean "proper armor," not like in that big fantasy MMO which shall remain nameless.

By the way, I predict that Diabolique's upcoming makeover will involve less clothing and more boobs. Calling it now. Frankly, this obsession with T&A just looks like pathetic, childish pandering of the beer commercial variety.

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Posted

Well I guess we now know what happens when they don't err on the side of caution.
Player rage.... but i will just toss this in there as to say the female parts for the steampunk 2.0 pack (wife will not let me call it the Gunslinger pack) look is nice, but i think having the coat, chaps, hat ect.... should be available for the female models. I've got a good friend who knows the programs that they work with and his opinion is that the devs are giving in to the pressure of time constraints and then turn around and say that they cant do what the players want.
Now it's not the fact that they can't put out quality stuffs, it's the fact that they are just slaves to the all mighty wheel.
Now in the mist of all this hate and rage, I have to thank people like David Nakayama for all their hard work to give us the fun we have all been enjoying for over seven years.
Ok that's my two cents, ohh and if you want to see some more riveting chats about the female issues and gender stuffs in gameplay, check out the female thread on the mastermind issue. (The thread title is self explanatory)

 

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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum View Post
As for Posi's original remarks, developers do tend to put some consideration into 'potential for misuse' of certain assets, as you generally don't want something so simple to abuse that it becomes the poster-child for a PR-seeking anti-gaming crusader. When yo do this, you often get a degree of tunnel vision looking at JUST that asset you're examining by itself. You become aware of the potential to make "pimpdaddy and his ho's" in a custom mastermind and neglect to see that a supergroup could essentially express that same thing.

I have a feeling that the ease of abuse was probably a factor that came up in a meeting discussing that, but it wasn't necessarily the deciding factor. It was just an easy example of many of the reasons that Posi could give without delving into a complex discussion he had little interest in getting into.
I already allowed for the "naughty factor" to be a SECONDARY Dev excuse/concern in this regard. Basically the Devs didn't have the time or resources to give us something like customizable MM pets and since some people might abuse it anyway they decided they might as well not pursue it. Somewhere along the line the secondary idea that people might abuse these features in sexist ways became the PRIMARY reason in the eyes of many as to why the Devs decided against them. I just don't like Posi focusing in on that like it's the only reason in play.

All I'm saying is that based on how sexy they've allowed player costume options to become that the idea that the Devs would avoid anything for the -primary- reason of reducing the potential for abuse is highly suspect at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Premonitions View Post
Why would you not want it in a "perfect" game? seriously, now this just feels like railing against other people liking different things than you. In a hypothetical situation where everybody was satisfied you'd still argue against others being satisfied for no discernible reason?
Lothic more than summed it up. But in my ideal game, there'd likely always be something MORE.

It's not about what I want. I mean seriously, I'd love a more feminine style avatar for my two male characters. And as one of them is a crossdresser, I'd obviously love the use of the female pieces that go with it.

Instead I use the female model for the one, and just accept it on the other.

But I also figure the pieces would be so under used, it wouldn't be worthwhile on the devs time, when there should always be something else they can do (even in a perfect game).

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Originally Posted by CapnGeist View Post
Personally, I've wanted those pieces since I started playing this game. If they introduce a Princess set without a Prince set I will go into full on rage mode.
Hence my point that I think they need to rethink the branding guidelines for these releases. Whatever is happening behind the scenes right now, it is clear that what is offered to each gender model often teases the imagination and desire for what was left out, producing ill feelings.

When a concept artist comes to whomever is in charge with some good markups like they did for the "gunslinger set," those in charge need to find a way to get some distance and sort out if indeed they are looking at an equitable spread across the different outfits they are planning to offer or if they are instead, as I suggested in my post you quote, actually looking at two adjacent but distinct costume themes. If it is the latter, don't scrap the concept on either side but instead flesh it out further and do two packs like "Saloon girl/gambler set" and "Wild West Gunslinger set." Both will sell.

And as Chase pointed out, if you guys at Paragon are short of artists, develop a subcontracting program and farm some of this out. Yes it means you may need a new full time production position just to streamline and conform the assets as they come in. But if you truly want to succeed in this microtransaction business model, go whole hog and realize you have now entered the world of Virtual Barbie, take it seriously, and provide consistent, quality goods.

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
No, the Barbarian pack wasn't in and of itself sexist. I'm all in favor of equal-opportunity near-nudity. And as an added bonus, the female top showed off your character's six-pack. Here they had a perfect opportunity to show off a sexy set that wasn't sexist and yet they still fouled it up in the marketing. The male characters in the preview looked tough and scary. The female character looked like Santa's Sexy Helper.
You know, I always took that more that whoever makes the "hero outfits" on these adds is just terrible at them.

I mean really, in a lot of the adds for the game, I've found the avatars created in them to be quite boring, plain, dull.

Now this isn't to say people don't look at my characters and think that way But much like the "santa's little helper" comment, I find it just falls in line with "can't you make some better looking heroes/villains for use int he adds"

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
You know, I always took that more that whoever makes the "hero outfits" on these adds is just terrible at them.

I mean really, in a lot of the adds for the game, I've found the avatars created in them to be quite boring, plain, dull.

Now this isn't to say people don't look at my characters and think that way But much like the "santa's little helper" comment, I find it just falls in line with "can't you make some better looking heroes/villains for use int he adds"
I was starting an "Archetype man/woman" character design concept when they created the archetype screenshots Specifically because I think they should stop hitting the "Random" button so often with their characters in promotional material. It had to take a backburner for a while. I should definitely start it up again when I'm more "settled"

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Posted

The problem I have is the Gunslinger woman just doesn't look like a hero. She looks like a Saloon Girl not an Annie Oakley or a Mattie Ross. The male costume looks badass, while the female costume looks... sexy? Yes you can look heroic and sexy, but this doesn't look the least bit heroic. It looks impractical and completely out of place.

I realise hero costumes can be impractical, but all the good ones at least look HEROIC (Or villainous of course). Power Girl, The Baroness and Black Canary looked sexy, but they also cut badass figures. Saloon Girl here is just trying too hard.

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
You know, I always took that more that whoever makes the "hero outfits" on these adds is just terrible at them.

I mean really, in a lot of the adds for the game, I've found the avatars created in them to be quite boring, plain, dull.
Well there is that too. But that particular ad shows a very distinct disparity in how the male and female costumes are presented. The preview clearly shows that this set will make your male characters look badass and your female characters look sexy. The heels do not help.

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
I already allowed for the "naughty factor" to be a SECONDARY Dev excuse/concern in this regard. Basically the Devs didn't have the time or resources to give us something like customizable MM pets and since some people might abuse it anyway they decided they might as well not pursue it. Somewhere along the line the secondary idea that people might abuse these features in sexist ways became the PRIMARY reason in the eyes of many as to why the Devs decided against them. I just don't like Posi focusing in on that like it's the only reason in play.

All I'm saying is that based on how sexy they've allowed player costume options to become that the idea that the Devs would avoid anything for the -primary- reason of reducing the potential for abuse is highly suspect at the very least.
And with the having to make all new styles, my suggestion for that has and always will be, use styles we already have, with pieces we already have.
But the main issue so far that keeps getting brought up over and over is the potential for misuse. If the potential is so bad, then remove the option, since apparently the people abusing it can't read the rules, nor can they use a functioning brain when given the chance to abuse/misuse something.

 

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Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan View Post
Or a little of both after making some sound judgement calls regarding the branding. i.e. if you make a princess, also make soft unarmored princely pieces with royal cloak, spotted fur collar, various crowns and doublets for him.

If you make a saloon girl, balance it out with a wild west gambler
(snipped some pics)

Makes me think of this guy:



I rather like that dress, too.

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Originally Posted by JoyRock View Post
But the main issue so far that keeps getting brought up over and over is the potential for misuse. If the potential is so bad, then remove the option, since apparently the people abusing it can't read the rules, nor can they use a functioning brain when given the chance to abuse/misuse something.
Admittedly it's a fine line the Devs have to balance with this. If the Devs took the hyper-strict path of "removing any option that could be abused" then we'd be playing this game with 100% hardwired pre-generated characters with zero options of customization.

It's really just a question of how much freedom the Devs are willing to give us factored by how much time and effort the Devs can spend providing us these options. My serious suspicion is that if resources were not an issue our Devs would be far more willing to provide us with potentially "questionable" options than most people realize.

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Well there is that too. But that particular ad shows a very distinct disparity in how the male and female costumes are presented. The preview clearly shows that this set will make your male characters look badass and your female characters look sexy. The heels do not help.
I just wish the they gave females the chest details (the straps) for females as well. I'd love the assemetrical chest detail they gave males/huge for my main. I'd have replaced the chain detail she currently uses and went withthe strap.

I continue to think they didnt give it to females more for the line of thought there's people who complain that female avatar gets more costume pieces than male avatars.

Which all leads back to the devs can't win. I'm sure if they made a gunslinger outfit for females, and put the current saloon girl outfit in with a male saloon outfit, there is likely some piece to the male salooon outfit that would sell well.

But then giving the male avatars access to the female pieces just wouldnt sell as well, and be a waste of their time and money.

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The last three packs have had nothing but corsets in them. Steampunk, Barbarian, Gunslinger. Corsets, Corsets, Corsets.

It's really, really hard to take any claims of "Not wanting to encourage people to sexualise their female characters" seriously when they're giving us nothing but options to do exactly that. The brain needs to tell either the mouth or the hands that one of them is not on message.

 

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
Admittedly it's a fine line the Devs have to balance with this. If the Devs took the hyper-strict path of "removing any option that could be abused" then we'd be playing this game with 100% hardwired pre-generated characters with zero options of customization.

It's really just a question of how much freedom the Devs are willing to give us factored by how much time and effort the Devs can spend providing us these options. My serious suspicion is that if resources were not an issue our Devs would be far more willing to provide us with potentially "questionable" options than most people realize.
So what we need is for a player to give the devs a serious financial grant and say "Go nuts!"

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The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by Fanservice View Post
The last three packs have had nothing but corsets in them. Steampunk, Barbarian, Gunslinger. Corsets, Corsets, Corsets.

It's really, really hard to take any claims of "Not wanting to encourage people to sexualise their female characters" seriously when they're giving us nothing but options to do exactly that. The brain needs to tell either the mouth or the hands that one of them is not on message.
Which goes a long with people asking for such pieces.

BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
I already allowed for the "naughty factor" to be a SECONDARY Dev excuse/concern in this regard. Basically the Devs didn't have the time or resources to give us something like customizable MM pets and since some people might abuse it anyway they decided they might as well not pursue it. Somewhere along the line the secondary idea that people might abuse these features in sexist ways became the PRIMARY reason in the eyes of many as to why the Devs decided against them. I just don't like Posi focusing in on that like it's the only reason in play.

All I'm saying is that based on how sexy they've allowed player costume options to become that the idea that the Devs would avoid anything for the -primary- reason of reducing the potential for abuse is highly suspect at the very least.
Makes sense, sorry if it seemed to be correcting ya-- the thread's a bit of a mess to see who argued what when.

 

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Originally Posted by Fanservice View Post
The last three packs have had nothing but corsets in them. Steampunk, Barbarian, Gunslinger. Corsets, Corsets, Corsets.
To be fair, the halloween pack came out in the midst of this. While there weren't any complete outfits in that pack, it was robust enough IMO to indeed call it a pack on the same scale as these. I've gotten tons of mileage out of it, on all three models, making use of at least 70% or more of the items in the pack.

Additionally, the CoT pack has come out amidst these releases as well. Despite any disappointments that have been articulated about that pack (lack of funny hats in particular), it was entirely gender neutral.

This is not to say I don't see the trend others are seeing. It is certainly a current trend amongst the "full costume genre packs" that are being released. This trend, though self evident is not the entire kit and caboodle.

Edit to add: I will also remain a firm advocate of the Barbarian pack simply because of the adaptability of three of the female shoulder pieces: the leather arm bands, arm bands with fur and the metallic rings. The metallic rings are especially nice. They take tinting colors very well. I've been able to use them not only as the intended Barbarian arm bangles but also as detailing on: cosmic outfits, classic spandex outfits, and formal wear. The cloth belt and ring from this set is equally adaptable. These detail pieces are examples of how the various bits and baubles from these sets ought to be done. Additionally, the corsets and several of the other details have two skins per geometry. This adds a load more diversity to the set. I wish the saloon girl bustle, for all it's flaws, at least had a second skin that was sans candy stripes on the front bib as I was hoping to maybe adapt it to a Marie Antoinette inspired villain look. But no. Anyways, for the reasons stated above, the Barbarian set gets a thumbs up from me. Scantily clad or not, in many ways, it represents the sort of modularity I prefer and desire from these specifically themed full outfit packs.

 

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I still don't know. The female costume might look, well, to be blunt, slutty. If Techbot showed the back of the male jacket and used the hat that goes with the Gunslinger set, guys end up looking like a moron whose sole source of info on 'the old west gunslinger' consisted of reruns of Bonanza or Marty McFly's costume in the third Back to the Future.

Edit: it's not to say that it's not annoying, or that the Gunslinger pack isn't a bit disappointing (though the female shirt is nice for casual wear like a sundress) I just can't help but think that it's at least gender equal in the respect that neither gender ends up looking good.

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Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan View Post
To be fair, the halloween pack came out in the midst of this. While there weren't any complete outfits in that pack, it was robust enough IMO to indeed call it a pack on the same scale as these. I've gotten tons of mileage out of it, on all three models, making use of at least 70% or more of the items in the pack.

Additionally, the CoT pack has come out amidst these releases as well. Despite any disappointments that have been articulated about that pack (lack of funny hats in particular), it was entirely gender neutral.
Oh I forgot about the Haloween pack as it was rather brief and hugely underwhelming. The CoT one though is valid to fill the gap and it was actually pretty good! More like that would be great.

 

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I'm not buying the Gunslinger and Prostitute Pack.


To Second Measure and Brian Clayton: Your art department is out of control.

  • They don't check in with the patch note process (e.g., beneficial changes to the character creator never got advertised in the patch notes nor advertised as an Issue feature... so, Marketing should be pretty ticked off about that).
  • When they interact with the players on the boards, they simply defend the way things are instead of bringing that feedback to the whole team. Complaints of sexism ain't new here. If anyone at Paragon Studios is surprised at this reaction, then there are some serious gaps with your player-communications. And there is just as much anger over the pre-tinting issue as with the sexism issue.
  • Jay approaches costuming like a frat boy ("Bunny tails ain't for guys!"). David still thinks he's drawing for 14 year old boys and not for a more diverse audience. Don't know why the women on the art team aren't championing a change the sexism being denounced here. And Positron, who used to have a say over the art department, is still harping on female henches as harems, despite the fact that we already have female 'pets' (Fortunatas, Seers, and the harloty harlequins) and YOU GAVE US A PROSTITUTE COSTUME FOR PLAYERS.

Not happy with this. I hope everyone boycotts this set until there's a real female gunslinger costume added to it.

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Edit: it's not to say that it's not annoying, or that the Gunslinger pack isn't a bit disappointing (though the female shirt is nice for casual wear like a sundress) I just can't help but think that it's at least gender equal in the respect that neither gender ends up looking good.
Oh, don't get me wrong. The female options all being inspired by prostitutes is only the most glaring issue with the pack. Frankly, I think the whole thing is ugly, and the pre-tinting just makes it worse.

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