Low level common salvage really high?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

First, and foremost, those prices are highly volatile and vary immensely, even
over course of a few minutes, let alone days... If you don't like the prices you
see, throw in a bid you're willing to pay, and let it sit -- if it is at all reasonable,
it will fill (probably in a few minutes).

Don't assume the last 5 is in any way representative of the average price.

Also, before we get too complacent attributing things to blatant stupidity, keep in
mind there are several other possibilities (some of which are actually rational)

Here are a few, just off the top of my head...

* Just got a nice recipe drop that will sell as is for 3M, but once crafted, would
sell for 20M... So, if I look at that 150,000 Circuit Breaker as a function of the
18M profit (after fees) I'll get for the sale, that salvage is 0.8% of cost -- ie. insignificant

* Just dinged a level, got a new power and I want an IO for it before I start
the tf my team is planning to run next. Normally, I'd put in a low bid, and get it
tomorrow - but they're waiting for me now - so, I'll overpay to grab it NAO.

That Circuit Breaker may overpriced currently, but... how much inf will I get
from just that tf? Will my new power help? As a point of interest, even substandard
L50's will make more than 1M an hour (not counting drops)... Most probably,
I'll make that 150K back easily in ~10 minutes or so in the tf even on a non L50.

* Some of us have made a LOT of inf over time. I'd conservatively guess I have ~20B
on hand (and I'm a lightweight compared to some folks)...

In that picture the 150K overpay is 0.00075% of my holdings, not only insignificant,
but barely even measurable.



Obviously, it all distills down to the value of your time in relation to the amount
of inf you can make in that same time.

More often than not, you'll lose (ie. miss out on) far more inf stewing over that
Circuit Breaker than you would if you bought it, and got back to killing things.

Of course, using other avenues (ie. AE tix, building up base storage over time etc.)
to obtain stuff is smart also, but I definitely wouldn't assume the person who
paid 150K for that Circuit Breaker did so purely because they're a moron...


Regards,
4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

But none of that provides a convincing rationale for the Must Have It Now point of view. There are very few, if any, cases I'm aware of in which a new IO or two will make such a significant difference in the immediately upcoming gameplay that IT MUST BE HAD RIGHT NAO.

And I don't get this whole "play time vs. inf cost" comparison. How does it consume "valuable playing time" to just drop in a buy order and then go off and continue doing what you were doing? Go pick up the item when the buy order is filled and get on with playing again. What's all this about waiting around for low bids to be fulfilled? That's completely unnecessary since the game doesn't stop, or prevent you from doing missions while you have outstanding market transactions.

And if you are trying to coerce fast purchases of particular bits of salvage in order to craft an IO that has a momentary, unusually high selling price, then one can hardly claim to regard inf as meaningless "play money" with no value. Playing the market in this manner is hardly the behavior of someone who values their playing time above petty inf-accumulation concerns.


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
Um, how does one outlevel an IO?
I'm sure he means SOs or DOs.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "holding up the group". Surely you don't mean running off to play marketeer or fill or upgrade enh slots
Like you, I let my Enh go red and keep playing, or I drop from the team and Enh up on my own time. Kinda depends on how useless I am w/o proper enhancements.

I'll even avoid leveling up and picking slots or new powers while I'm on a team if I'm not sure what to choose. Trying to rush new levels is a good way to end up regretting a hasty choice later on.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
I'm sure he means SOs or DOs.
But why would he be talking about DOs or SOs in a thread about IO salvage and the cost of creating IOs (both in terms of inf and ancillary playing time)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
I'll even avoid leveling up and picking slots or new powers while I'm on a team if I'm not sure what to choose. Trying to rush new levels is a good way to end up regretting a hasty choice later on.
Word.


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller

 

Posted

Quote:
But none of that provides a convincing rationale for the Must Have It Now point of view.
To You.

Quote:
There are very few, if any, cases I'm aware of in which a new IO or two will make such a significant difference in the immediately upcoming gameplay that IT MUST BE HAD RIGHT NAO.
Again, that's your subjective opinion. Others have different opinions.

My subjective opinion for instance, is that I prefer to enhance powers rather than try
to use them unslotted. I'm also of the opinion that some IOs DO matter - procs, for instance
(Karma -KB, Kismet Acc etc.) can make an immediate improvement in a build.

EndRdx, Acc, Dmg, Rch IO's can also make an appreciable difference in a power -
particularily if it's new or underslotted currently.

Quote:
And I don't get this whole "play time vs. inf cost" comparison. How does it consume "valuable playing time" to just drop in a buy order and then go off and continue doing what you were doing?
Go pick up the item when the buy order is filled and get on with playing again. What's all this about waiting around for low bids to be fulfilled?
To you, obviously it doesn't. Nothing wrong with that.

To me though, particularily when I'm selling things, listing sooner means I get paid
sooner - if I need a component to complete that process, NAO can be worthwhile
timeframe, depending on the cost/benefit ratio.

If I'm buying something, *convenience* has value to me there as well.

How often to you drop by a RL store to pick up an item on backorder? *

Far liklier you'll stop by the store, learn they don't have the item you want in stock,
and go elsewhere -- most folks usually won't say "Ok, order it for me and I'll
come back and pick it up when you get it".

Instant Gratification (like it or not) is an accustomed way of doing things...

Again - those are personal tradeoffs and priorities, not uninformed stupidity.


Regards,
4

* Edit: meant to say backorder, not layaway (got Xmas shopping on the brain)


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimus View Post
Did someone flip the market or is it always like this?
Neither. "Flipping" doesn't generally produce stuff like this. Active attempts to drive prices up are normally based on destroying items in bulk. Mostly, though, it's just sort of random fluctuations.


 

Posted

The market. When I go shopping, I put a low bid in for all the salvage I need, and swap toons and continue leveling other chars. When I level that toon, and want to IO it out, I repeat...bid low, swap toons. By the next time I play, I usually have all my salvage purchased and I didn't have to pay those ridiculous prices.

Patience is a virtue.


Justice
Everwood

Triumph
The Trust

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genetic Freak View Post
By the next time I play, I usually have all my salvage purchased and I didn't have to pay those ridiculous prices.
Except for Alchemical Silver. ;D


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
I'm also of the opinion that some IOs DO matter - procs, for instance (Karma -KB, Kismet Acc etc.) can make an immediate improvement in a build.
Most IOs make "an immediate improvement", but that's not really saying much besides the obvious. The question, I think, is whether or not the improvement is so significant that getting it NOW versus getting it a little later (even a day or three later) has any serious gameplay impact in the mean time. I believe the rational case for GETTING IT NAO is vastly overstated, merely to make it sound logical and reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
Instant Gratification (like it or not) is an accustomed way of doing things...
Instant Gratification is at the core of this, I think. And it is an expensive vice, in real life or anywhere else. Just because it is common doesn't mean it makes good sense or is worth endorsing as a "reasonable" philosophy. And before you ask what that has to do with this thread, I'll point out that the OP is basically asking if anyone thinks these unnaturally high spikes in common salvage prices are reasonable. I think they are not, no matter what commonplace psychological motivator is behind it, and especially not if said price spikes are due to the Instant Gratification crowd competing for (momentarily) scant resources.

"But I don't want to wait, and if I have the inf, why should I?" No reason you should, but for the players who don't have billions of inf to throw around (or who simply can't abide personal conspicuous consumption even when it is only virtual), it is useful, I think, to point out that they really aren't missing out on anything vital by simply waiting a little while for sanity to return to the salvage market. It's not like their toons will starve to death and be deleted from the servers if they don't slot the next IO in their latest build experiment RIGHT NAO.


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
And I don't get this whole "play time vs. inf cost" comparison. How does it consume "valuable playing time" to just drop in a buy order and then go off and continue doing what you were doing? Go pick up the item when the buy order is filled and get on with playing again. What's all this about waiting around for low bids to be fulfilled? That's completely unnecessary since the game doesn't stop, or prevent you from doing missions while you have outstanding market transactions.

The characters I marketeer on are often not the characters I'm going to play that night. I get my marketeering over at the start, then go play on another character. I don't plan on spending the time to log back into them later. And when I'm making anywhere from 5-10 million profit per IO, 100k means almost nothing.


Culex's resistance guide

 

Posted

Quote:
I believe the rational case for GETTING IT NAO is vastly overstated, merely to make it sound logical and reasonable.
Yes, I fully get it that you think there is in fact only one *right* way to do things.

Practically speaking, that supposition is inaccurate.


In fact, taking that mindset to it's logical conclusion, why would you ever buy
*anything* in this game? Surely, if you're patient, it will drop ... eventually...

So, on one extreme, we have the "Buy it Nao" position where players value
time over easily obtained pretend money, and on the other extreme would be the
"Buy it Never" position where players would slot just drops, valuing pricepoint
over time.

Clearly there's a lot of room between those two positions.

Given the typical Levelling times from L1-L50, I think we'd find a pretty large
statistical sample of players buying between Now and Tommorrow for most
commodities in game if we could mine the market transaction data.

With the notable exception of PvP and Purple IO's, the lower limit is probably
four days (ie. run tips enough to get 2 A-Merits). While there are a small handful
of IO's you can't buy with merits, the vast majority would be available for no
inf at all...in four days...

So, why would you ever wait longer than 4 days for any "normal" stuff?
If it's "insane" pricing, why wouldn't you grab it with tix or merits instead?


You're basically arguing the tradeoff between paying more for extended use
(from having it sooner) versus getting it for the lowest price possible even if that
means waiting for X amount of time.

Further, the position you're taking labels any players that don't take the
second approach as stupid rather than a simple player choice.

I find this somewhat amusing in a game whose purpose is leisure entertainment,
and possibly a bit self-righteous, self-centered and maybe even mildly offensive
as well.

Quote:
"But I don't want to wait, and if I have the inf, why should I?" No reason you should, but for the players who don't have billions of inf to throw around (or who simply can't abide personal conspicuous consumption even when it is only virtual), it is useful, I think, to point out that they really aren't missing out on anything vital by simply waiting a little while for sanity to return to the salvage market. It's not like their toons will starve to death and be deleted from the servers if they don't slot the next IO in their latest build experiment RIGHT NAO.
The point that seems to continually sail over your head in all this is simple.

How exactly, can you *quantify* what I'm missing or not missing by buying
or not buying a particular item at a price I'm *willing* to pay?

Who appointed you to define "conspicuous consumption" on the part of *other* players?
Spending 0.00075% of my wealth on an item is excessive? Really?

What qualifies you to label the salvage market as "insane" for other players?
Especially given that *every* player who paid for salvage (or anything else
on the market for that matter) did so voluntarily and willingly?

Who made you the arbiter of the game *I* play?


One of the primary benefits of the Market imho is that it accommodates everyone,
regardless of their motivation, wealth, or in your rather narrow view, intelligence.

Need a bargain? Bid low and wait - There's a good chance you'll get what you
want, given sufficient time.

Need to improve Nao? No worries - the 0 key is Your Friend.

Can't buy what you want? Still no problem - with tickets or merits you can
still get what you're looking for with a little time and effort.


In short, there's more than one way to do it, and more than one reason to account
for it.

Anyway, that's enough of a threadjack for me...

To the OP - don't sweat the prices... Bid what you're willing to pay.
If you need more inf - it's unbelievably easy to earn it - check out a guide or two.
If nothing else, when prices seem high ... SELL!!!


Regards,
4


PS> So, of all the times you've been in an actual RL store in November, how
many times did you (Wing Leader) buy something on backorder? Seriously.


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

There seems to be a lot of hostility for people that overpay for stuff on the market. I don't really understand why. If I don't care why should you? I regularly pay 1,500,000 for all my salvage even if it is currently selling for 10. I'm not breaking the market. I just don't care. Why let the inf just sit? It doesn't do me any good. I figure at least some of the time some low level early player will get a nice surprise. I know I got one back when I started my new account. I thought it was the best night ever. Shrug, toons I dont use sitting on hundreds of million or in a couple cases a billion plus. Why would I not over pay?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aipaloovik View Post
There seems to be a lot of hostility for people that overpay for stuff on the market. I don't really understand why. If I don't care why should you? I regularly pay 1,500,000 for all my salvage even if it is currently selling for 10. I'm not breaking the market. I just don't care. Why let the inf just sit? It doesn't do me any good. I figure at least some of the time some low level early player will get a nice surprise. I know I got one back when I started my new account. I thought it was the best night ever. Shrug, toons I dont use sitting on hundreds of million or in a couple cases a billion plus. Why would I not over pay?
The hostility you are perceiving isn't directed entirely at the people that overpay for things at the market. To be more accurate it is directed at the subset of that group that insist on overpaying and then subsequently complain that everything is too expensive while childishly demanding changes so they can pay less (They still want to be able to sell their stuff for millions tho) instead of learning to place reasonable bids and waiting for them to be filled.


 

Posted

There is always flipping going on when a niche is profitable enough, but the main reason it can and does spike is as others said, very low supply.

With the speed people blaze through the lower levels, only so much low level common salvage gets generated, and even then, it's likely many don't even put them on the market.

Issues with low level common salvage:
A) People tend to blaze through the levels

B) People tend to just 'let it remain full' and continue working towards their next level without unloading/selling salvage

C) A lot of it regularly and almost always sells for less than vendor price because their is no demand, so they get in a habit of just vendoring low level salvage. Myself, I often just delete it, unless I know the price is spiked on something, to save myself time.

D) Even when the price is high, it's often less valuable to try and sell 1-2 pieces of 50k salvage than being able to use that market slot for something else. 50k inf or leave a bid on a IO or piece of salvage I need for my build. Myself, I usually have all of my market slots working for me, and tend to either dump all my salvage quick on the market for 1 inf just to clear it or I vendor/delete it.

Anyways, those are some of the reasons, many of which others have stated too.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
The hostility you are perceiving isn't directed entirely at the people that overpay for things at the market. To be more accurate it is directed at the subset of that group that insist on overpaying and then subsequently complain
This.
Seriously. No one cares if someone overpays. Well, maybe the seller cares, but in a positive way. No one has any hostility toward people who overpay. At worst, they might feel amusement or mild contempt. Mostly, though, no one cares.

However, when someone comes in here and complains about how they had to pay too much for something.... "Had to"? Was someone holding a gun to your head? Was there a timer on your money? You can have it *NOW* or you can have it at a reasonable price. And let's keep in mind that supply and demand determine a reasonable price - not the skinflint who screams the loudest.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
This.
Seriously. No one cares if someone overpays. Well, maybe the seller cares, but in a positive way. No one has any hostility toward people who overpay. At worst, they might feel amusement or mild contempt. Mostly, though, no one cares.

However, when someone comes in here and complains about how they had to pay too much for something.... "Had to"? Was someone holding a gun to your head? Was there a timer on your money? You can have it *NOW* or you can have it at a reasonable price. And let's keep in mind that supply and demand determine a reasonable price - not the skinflint who screams the loudest.
Now, *this* I can agree with.

Categorically claiming people are "stupid" if they willingly overpay for an item,
is rude and narrowminded.

Willingly overpaying and then publicly complaining about the prices is pretty
hypocritical.

The prices are fully governed by players (through the economic principles of
Supply & Demand). Additionally, there's more than 1 way to obtain items, and
some of them don't even require inf.

My own rule of thumb is to bid *only* what I'm willing to pay based on the priority
I attach to having the item. Sometimes, that is 11 and sometimes it's 1,111,111.


Regards,
4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
No, this is stupid and/or impatient people. This isn't waiting between gluts. I will regularly watch my bids and sales go one right after the other. Ten seconds apart, "You have bought Luck Charm!" (at 15k) followed by "You have sold Luck Charm!" (at 50k!)
Puts in bids for stacks of Luck Charms at 15002, sale price at 49998...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
Now, *this* I can agree with.

Categorically claiming people are "stupid" if they willingly overpay for an item,
is rude and narrowminded.

Willingly overpaying and then publicly complaining about the prices is pretty
hypocritical.

Regards,
4
If you only could have seen some of the harebrained logic the overpaying complainers have used over the years to justify why they should be allowed to pay the lowest price possible while everyone else continues to ridiculously overpay them you'd understand why they keep getting called stupid.

Imagine a person in a bathing suit who is insisting that he won't get wet if he jumps in a pool of water while it's raining.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
Puts in bids for stacks of Luck Charms at 15002, sale price at 49998...
Puts in bids for stacks of Luck Charms at 15003, sale price at 49997...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
Puts in bids for stacks of Luck Charms at 15002, sale price at 49998...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
Puts in bids for stacks of Luck Charms at 15003, sale price at 49997...
Even if you did this, there is actually enough supply for everyone's bids to fill and MORE THAN enough demand for everyone's sales to sell. It'll take a little longer, but Coyote's would deplete first, then Mike's, then mine... meanwhile, sales will also take a little longer, but they'll eventually all sell. Luck Charms move fast.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
Puts in bids for stacks of Luck Charms at 15002, sale price at 49998...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
Puts in bids for stacks of Luck Charms at 15003, sale price at 49997...
...I see where this is going...


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
Even if you did this, there is actually enough supply for everyone's bids to fill and MORE THAN enough demand for everyone's sales to sell. It'll take a little longer, but Coyote's would deplete first, then Mike's, then mine... meanwhile, sales will also take a little longer, but they'll eventually all sell. Luck Charms move fast.
I have 16 characters on Virtue alone, most of which have 25 to 27 market slots each.

With my dozens of alts on other servers, I can make chump bids of 1 inf each on all their slots to artificially inflate the apparent demand for Luck Charms.

No, I don't do this...

...with Luck Charms... >.>


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourSpeed View Post
Now, *this* I can agree with.

Categorically claiming people are "stupid" if they willingly overpay for an item,
is rude and narrowminded.

Willingly overpaying and then publicly complaining about the prices is pretty
hypocritical.
The way I see it, how much I choose to pay for something and why is none of anyone else's damn business.

I overpay all the time, as mentioned before, mostly because I like to finish what I'm doing before I log off a given character. I have numerous characters, and it could be weeks before I log that one in again. There is a decent chance I will have forgotten what I was doing before I logged off in the intervening time.

If overpaying for a piece of salvage means I can be done with what I was doing now, rather than later, I can live with that. 50,000 influence one way or the other isn't going to make a huge difference in anything, especially when I can earn it back in the course of fighting a single spawn at level 50.

I think that little fact is commonly forgotten. How ridiculously easy it is to earn influence just by playing the game. My level 50 characters can earn 50,000 influence literally in less than a minute. Why should spending that much bother me when I can make the same amount back so quickly?

Like I said, it's play money, and the amount of it you have is completely irrelevant in terms of things that really matter. Now, if a car dealership would accept influence as a valid means of payment for a new Mercedes, maybe my opinion would differ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
I think that little fact is commonly forgotten. How ridiculously easy it is to earn influence just by playing the game.
You mean like that one guy from last month that tried to claim F2P accounts couldn't earn enough inf to buy DO's and SO's and thus were at a disadvantage to ViP's?

Then someone went and created an alt on a F2P account and in a few hours leveled it up to DO range and had it fully slotted with DO's and still had 300k left over and provided screenshots to back up his test.

Odd how that OP never returned to that thread to dispute that post.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
If you only could have seen some of the harebrained logic the overpaying complainers have used over the years to justify why they should be allowed to pay the lowest price possible while everyone else continues to ridiculously overpay them you'd understand why they keep getting called stupid.

Imagine a person in a bathing suit who is insisting that he won't get wet if he jumps in a pool of water while it's raining.
I don't hold the position that "stupidity" doesn't exist, or is even particularly rare,
after all, I DO hang out in the Market Forum section and the Market Channel.

We have seen some unbelievably clueless folks rant in there over the years.

In fact, the guide in my signature is the direct refutation of an especially clueless
(imo) poster.

The point I did make however (in my first post) is that I wouldn't automatically assume
stupidity is the only reason, or even the primary/default reason for overpaying,
and some of the reasons are (again imho) perfectly rational in many cases, if/once
all the factors are considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The way I see it, how much I choose to pay for something and why is none of anyone else's damn business.

I overpay all the time, as mentioned before, mostly because I like to finish what I'm doing before I log off a given character. I have numerous characters, and it could be weeks before I log that one in again. There is a decent chance I will have forgotten what I was doing before I logged off in the intervening time.

If overpaying for a piece of salvage means I can be done with what I was doing now, rather than later, I can live with that. 50,000 influence one way or the other isn't going to make a huge difference in anything, especially when I can earn it back in the course of fighting a single spawn at level 50.

I think that little fact is commonly forgotten. How ridiculously easy it is to earn influence just by playing the game. My level 50 characters can earn 50,000 influence literally in less than a minute. Why should spending that much bother me when I can make the same amount back so quickly?
Yep. No argument from me...

I have a tendency to stop into the market for a particular task, and sometimes
that involves purchases at the NAO price.

For me, it's always a cost/benefit decision based on the price, the time and
what else I want to get done in that game session.


Regards,
4


I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.