Forced teaming makes me sad
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2011-11-04 07:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
The Kahn and Barracuda TFs can be started with four players. I find it hard to accept that they are that much easier than the Winter Lord's realm. And it's worth mentioning that there's no warning on them that four is a bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I feel that solution would be more problematic, despite any warning. Which will bring in posts about "if we can start solo, we should be able to finish solo." It'll just more of the "can't please everybody" schtick.
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Blue
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Red
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Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
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Yes, but neither of them are timed like the Winter Lord Realm and various pulling can let 4 people succeed with the Reichs TFs if they aren't what would be called "optimal." Though I'm not sure about the temp powers on Barracuda...I did it twice, got my Master's badge and was done with it because I hated how long and tedious it was. Also, Reich's being a big sack of hit points doesn't help...
if they lifted the time limit on WLR...I'd say let one person have at it if they wanted.
So we should set the threshold such that the odds of failure are minimal?
I've seen TF teams of eight give up on Reichsman. Deciding you'll never overcome his regen is failing by another name, even if the big red letters "Task Force Failed" don't flash on screen. I contend that a "trial" size minimum of 12 is too conservative for Lord Winter.
If people go in and fail, they can try to find more and try again.
The biggest problem I have is that the current settings impose an a priori failure criteria - if you can't find 11 other people, you never even get to try the actual content.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
not saying we should set anything
I'd like to know why, just like anyone else, why they increased the minimum, because unless they made Lord Winter harder...it makes no sense.
I soloed through the old Positron TF in Ouroboros on my MA/SR Scrapper. The minimum team requirement it used to have seemed completely superfluous, as there was nothing there that you don't see in standard soloable content.
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Quote:
You're possibly totally happy with everything current about CoH. You'll possibly be happy with every single addition, change, nerf, tweak, everything they decide to do to the game from now on. If you find something that you're not happy with, however, and decide to make a post about it, 'be grateful for the way it is now' isn't going to be recieved well by you, i would venture.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
We're on to this again.
This is an MMO. While that doesn't mean a team is required to play, that does mean that some content will require it. Optional content, however. "Solo friendly" does not mean that the entire game will be solo- or even duo-able. If that's a problem for you, you're playing the wrong game genre. As it stands, there's a crapton more solo-able content than nearly any other MMO offers. This is probably the most solo friendly MMO by a long shot. Be grateful for that. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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If the Reichs TF is the one with the 4 AVs trapped in force fields ina big room at the end, I've done that once, and that's basically all I know about it because the rest of the team had all doje it before and they weren't there to sightsee, so I basically got TPed to various places and at one stage I recall told 'DON'T go in this room - the tank will sort it out'. I got the badge, but it was awful. I'll never bother with that content again. If the minimum start req was removed, I would start it right now, and probably stay in the TF for a good few days, slowly working my way through the stuff I could defeat and taking screenshots etc. I'd have a go at the AVs, but I wouldn't moan at my probable defeat.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Yes, but neither of them are timed like the Winter Lord Realm and various pulling can let 4 people succeed with the Reichs TFs if they aren't what would be called "optimal." Though I'm not sure about the temp powers on Barracuda...I did it twice, got my Master's badge and was done with it because I hated how long and tedious it was. Also, Reich's being a big sack of hit points doesn't help...
if they lifted the time limit on WLR...I'd say let one person have at it if they wanted. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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If you wouldn't beat an AV, you wouldn't be able to finish the first mission. Just saying.
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I soloed Sister Psyche on my Emp/Sonic defender, with a break to go get some Shivans. It took me a few sessions to do the TF, and a few more to defeat Clamor. She wasn't particularly uber at all, I recall, against a Shivan with me healing it.|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
I soloed through the old Positron TF in Ouroboros on my MA/SR Scrapper. The minimum team requirement it used to have seemed completely superfluous, as there was nothing there that you don't see in standard soloable content.
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One of the most fun CoH times I've ever had, that TF. As was duoing Katie with my SG-mate. The last AV fight took us about 3 hours. When we succeeded, man, we felt like superheroes.
Compare those times to the absolute 'meh' of a 'don't stop to look at the scenery, don't bother with anything not essential for TF completion' run through the ITF or STF, or the whack-a-mole BAF...
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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That seems to be a really convoluted tactic for the Hero version...Nemesis, that Malta Guy...Vanessa DeVore and Mistress Crey aren't really that big of a threat...|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
If the Reichs TF is the one with the 4 AVs trapped in force fields ina big room at the end, I've done that once, and that's basically all I know about it because the rest of the team had all doje it before and they weren't there to sightsee, so I basically got TPed to various places and at one stage I recall told 'DON'T go in this room - the tank will sort it out'. I got the badge, but it was awful. I'll never bother with that content again. If the minimum start req was removed, I would start it right now, and probably stay in the TF for a good few days, slowly working my way through the stuff I could defeat and taking screenshots etc. I'd have a go at the AVs, but I wouldn't moan at my probable defeat.
Eco |
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
I soloed through the old Positron TF in Ouroboros on my MA/SR Scrapper. The minimum team requirement it used to have seemed completely superfluous, as there was nothing there that you don't see in standard soloable content.
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If the thing I'm not happy with is an MMO being an MMO, then I'd say I'm the problem here, not the MMO.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
You're possibly totally happy with everything current about CoH. You'll possibly be happy with every single addition, change, nerf, tweak, everything they decide to do to the game from now on. If you find something that you're not happy with, however, and decide to make a post about it, 'be grateful for the way it is now' isn't going to be recieved well by you, i would venture.
Eco |
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Not all MMOs are the same. CoH is a niche market, and as such, has license to do things differently from others in the same genre. Technically, MMOs don't have to do -anything- other than collect revenue in exchange for providing a game that makes use of an internet connection. In my opinion, your argument comes across like "All desserts should taste like chocolate, and if you don't like chocolate, you shouldn't eat dessert."
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
If the thing I'm not happy with is an MMO being an MMO, then I'd say I'm the problem here, not the MMO.
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@Valerika
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And again, not only does MMO no automatically imply teaming, even if it did, it does not imply oversized teamming. "Massively Multiplayer" does not and never has, in any MMO, automatically assumed that all those other players who were online at the same time as you, populating the game world with other characters were on your immense team.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
If the thing I'm not happy with is an MMO being an MMO, then I'd say I'm the problem here, not the MMO.
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So honestly, your constant references to MMOs as some axiomatic defense of what's being objected mean absolutely nothing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
True.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
If the thing I'm not happy with is an MMO being an MMO, then I'd say I'm the problem here, not the MMO.
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However I don't think I have ever seen a definition of MMO that includes "forced teaming" so in the context of this thread that comment is pointless.
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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This is true. But, as the case is here, if the thing you're not happy with is your MMO adding features that discourage the way you've played the game for seven years, then you're probably not the problem. At least not solely.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
If the thing I'm not happy with is an MMO being an MMO, then I'd say I'm the problem here, not the MMO.
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Thought for the day:
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No-one here is unhappy with City of Heroes being an MMO. We're unhappy with a specific definition of MMO that THIS MMO didn't always ascribe to.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
If the thing I'm not happy with is an MMO being an MMO, then I'd say I'm the problem here, not the MMO.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And there is no forced teaming. The content in which teams are required is completely optional. But, all MMOs have large team content. CoH mostly lacked this for a long time. There was a lot of clamor for it to be added. Now it's being added, but none of it is required. So, they're STILL being extremely solo-friendly.|
Originally Posted by Jagged
True.
However I don't think I have ever seen a definition of MMO that includes "forced teaming" so in the context of this thread that comment is pointless. |
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
This is true. But, as the case is here, if the thing you're not happy with is your MMO adding features that discourage the way you've played the game for seven years, then you're probably not the problem. At least not solely.
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Slapping a 'raid' label on stuff that used to be team content is a change. It might be a change you're fine with, but it might also be the indication of a trend that others want to nib in the bud.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
But..they're...not.... I don't get why adding some team-required content = "discouraging they way you've played the game for seven years". It's not discouraging anything.
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Amusingly, certain other mammoth MMOs that shall remain nameless are actually less restrictive, allowing you to enter "team only" content alone if you want. Sure, you'll probably get creamed if you don't vastly out-level the content, but you can. Personally, I don't see a reason to put a hard minimum on any content.
That said, the LFG tool probably needs a hard minimum as it stands right now. Otherwise it'd keep dumping you alone into team content, if there's not enough people in the queue.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Again a completely irrelevant tangent and discussion.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
And there is no forced teaming. The content in which teams are required is completely optional. But, all MMOs have large team content. CoH mostly lacked this for a long time. There was a lot of clamor for it to be added. Now it's being added, but none of it is required. So, they're STILL being extremely solo-friendly.
But..they're...not.... I don't get why adding some team-required content = "discouraging they way you've played the game for seven years". It's not discouraging anything. |
Once again the original op:
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I see from the Beta forums that this year's Winter Event will probably require a minimum of 12 players to access, only via the LFG tab.
I'm sick of being offered content which requires huge (to me) groups. My preferred playstyle is to duo with my SG-mate.
We'll do the Winter Event once for the badge but will probably view it as a chore rather than take pleasure in it.
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He's not complaining about teaming. He's complaining about the high minimum of the Winter Event, which it NEVER needed.
The Event has been completed in the past with 8. It should have stayed that way.
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Yep, which for the Winter Event could be 8.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Slapping a 'raid' label on stuff that used to be team content is a change. It might be a change you're fine with, but it might also be the indication of a trend that others want to nib in the bud.
Amusingly, certain other mammoth MMOs that shall remain nameless are actually less restrictive, allowing you to enter "team only" content alone if you want. Sure, you'll probably get creamed if you don't vastly out-level the content, but you can. Personally, I don't see a reason to put a hard minimum on any content. That said, the LFG tool probably needs a hard minimum as it stands right now. Otherwise it'd keep dumping you alone into team content, if there's not enough people in the queue. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
To be fair, i have moved slightly off tge pure complaint in my Ozp to complain about hard minimums for anything, not just the Winter Event. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Again a completely irrelevant tangent and discussion.
Once again the original op: Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan I see from the Beta forums that this year's Winter Event will probably require a minimum of 12 players to access, only via the LFG tab. I'm sick of being offered content which requires huge (to me) groups. My preferred playstyle is to duo with my SG-mate. We'll do the Winter Event once for the badge but will probably view it as a chore rather than take pleasure in it. ---------------- He's not complaining about teaming. He's complaining about the high minimum of the Winter Event, which it NEVER needed. The Event has been completed in the past with 8. It should have stayed that way. |
I don't see any problem with removing minimum start reqs from everything. It wouldn't alter a team-loving players game, and it would allow solo and duo/trio players more access options for content they're currently not making much use of.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Did they "just slap a raid label" on it or did they actually make changes to it that make it more difficult? Don't think I've actually seen that answered yet, but I could be mistaken.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Slapping a 'raid' label on stuff that used to be team content is a change. It might be a change you're fine with, but it might also be the indication of a trend that others want to nib in the bud.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
He's not complaining about teaming. He's complaining about the high minimum of the Winter Event, which it NEVER needed.
The Event has been completed in the past with 8. It should have stayed that way. |
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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In the case of the Winter Realm, it is indeed not "required." In fact, whether or not that's team-only, I still wouldn't bother since I don't like events.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
But..they're...not.... I don't get why adding some team-required content = "discouraging they way you've played the game for seven years". It's not discouraging anything.
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However, the larger question that always comes up includes Incarnate content, as well, and right now ALL Incarnate content is forced teaming. Well, with the exception of Ramiel's arc, but that's not repeatable. That IS required if you want to progress through the system unless you want to argue that the whole of the Incarnate system is "optional," which is a really bad argument to make.
As far as I'm concerned, I really don't care what gets put into team-only content because I'm perfectly capable of ignoring it, and have been for seven years. Sure, it bugs me when the culminations of stories get shoved into a TF (Striga and Croatoa), but that's specifics. So long as I have options to go around the forced team content, I'm happy, and with the Incarnate system, that simply doesn't exist.
And, no, I don't expect that status quo to change by a meaningful amount after the Pummit.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, first off. Does it matter? Even if they bumped the Winter Lord up to raid difficulty to require 12 people, at a minimum, to succeed... why actively preventing anyone from trying it at 11? Or 8? or 2?|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Did they "just slap a raid label" on it or did they actually make changes to it that make it more difficult? Don't think I've actually seen that answered yet, but I could be mistaken.
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Secondly, even if you're right, that'd be exactly the kind of trend I don't want to see happening. I don't want to see "existing" team content turn into raid content. Add content. Don't replace content.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
If the devs feel that a team of less than 12 is unlikely to succeed, simply put that on the content in big, red letters.
Eco