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And several people have also stated very clearly (myself included) that running regular content doesn't require you to be fully slotted. Sell TOs & DOs instead of slotting them and you will have the influence you need when it gets round to SO time.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I am stating a very clear point. The Devs have clearly stated SOs are what the game is built around. If you run regular content and get to 22 and again at 27, you will not be able to afford SOs. This can cost us the opportunity of retaining new Freebs that are giving us a look. That is stupid.
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I do not bother slotting efficiently until I start buying SOs and even then I don't care about having everything. You don't need to be a brilliant player to do it, only and very experienced player will even notice the difference. Its what most players do anyway.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I suspect Snow Globe is suggesting the 3s and 8s so that you can combine with existing enhancements, rather than replace.
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Originally Posted by NekoNeko
Why would you slot new SOs at those levels? On almost all my characters, I slot new SOs at 22, 27, 32, 37, 42 and 47 (and I wonder why you'd need to slot new SOs at 50). I guess basically I'm asking for the strategy of waiting the extra level, when you *could* slot new SOs one level earlier. I somehow get the eerie feeling I'm missing something big that has somehow eluded me all this time.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Those would be the +1 levels, where you would combine new SOs with your existing ones, I guess.|
Originally Posted by NekoNeko
Why would you slot new SOs at those levels?
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Be Well!
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Then don't run the sewer trial over and over again. One of the big boosts to influence in the early levels comes from the end of arc bonuses, so run lots of story arcs and make sure both of you take the missions so that you both get the arc bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
In the City you can do a day or so worth of sewer trials and be flat broke, 20+ level, and have no chance of enhancing.
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Once I learned how to generate all the inf I needed via the market, it became my practice to always kit out every character with the best possible enchancements as soon as they become available. At level 12, I fill every slot with level 15 DOs. At 17 they they all get replaced with level 20 DOs. At level 22, each characer is completely decked out with SOs. Then I start replacing those with IOs. Etc etc.
I admit I find it hard to imagine playing a character that doesn't have a full set of DOs after level 12 or a full set of SOs/IOs after level 22. I haven't had to do so in a long time. I'm spoiled.
But this wasn't always the case. There have been a few times that I've logged on to a lowbie that I haven't played since my first few months of subscription--characters I haven't played since before I knew how to earn from the market or even knew how to slot efficiently--and I've been amused to see things like level 18 characters with lots of TOs, or level 27 characters rocking plenty of DOs (even quite a few empty slots or slots with outleveled enchancements)
The thing is, I remember having fun playing those characters. It didn't matter that I didn't have the best possible enchancements. Sure, the game was harder then and I died more. But what game isn't more difficult when you're new than when you're more experienced?
For a vet that goes freebie, the downgrading of enchancements will likely be a bit of a shock. But new freebie players won't know the difference. They won't know that their playing experience is supposed to be "horrid" just because a mission which is a breeze to us vets may be a little challenging to them (many may actually enjoy the challenge). So I'm not too worried about the newbies playing on their free accounts. If I enjoyed the game in my early days with no huge bankroll of inf and a stable of mostly crappy enchancements, I'm sure they can too.
As for not wanting to spend any money on the game, I can certainly appreciate waiting until a player is sure that he/she actually likes playing. But for anyone who decides to stick around, the experience will be very limited unless you are willing to buy something at some point. That's deliberate. NCsoft doesn't want people playing completely for free--they make zero money from that. Think of a totally free account as an extended trial. You CAN keep the trial going forever if you really want to, but NCsoft is hoping you won't. Eventually they want free players to either subscribe or at least engage in a few market transactions from time to time. It was never their intention, nor their promise, to give players a full gaming experience for absolutely nothing.
I still feel very strongly that the Devs have made a big mistake in marketing. In my eyes I want a new player to be able to move right from TOs to DOs to SOs, and LUST after what the VIPs are using.
You guys have made some good points about how most videogamers expect to be dirt poor. Many of you are way smarter than me, some of you are about as smart but really educated on game mechanics. To both those groups the cities seem pleasantly difficult.
My wife is a very sharp cookie. She can take really horribly written stories and work with an author to create very fun reads. (Much like what some of you nice folks have done helping me take my, er, interesting build concepts and turning them into something that can roll on 50 MO TFs) However, the city is overwhelming to her. Using maps, trains, jet packs, slotting powers. All new to her. I look at her and consider the play experience of all new players in the game. I want to remove as much frustration as is easily doable, in order to lure people in with what the cities does great.
Cities selling points: Great character generation, very complex world (feels real), great teaming, great story content. And these days practically level at your own pace, whatever that is for you.
Cities problems: (in my opinion) Very complicated enhancement system. Very complicated rewards system at the Incarnate level. (How many reward forms, sheesh?) In some ways those of us who enjoy tinkering with builds love this. I am horrid at it, yet I still love it. Takes me back to my years playing the Armored Core series. Which my wife hated even watching me do lol.
The reason I am bringing this up is it seems kind of silly to shut new Freeb players testing us out away from SOs, just to make a point about how tough levels 15-30 are. Come, join our game, fun to play. Oops, level 15-30, you are broke. Haha. Hey level 30, money flows like water, enjoy. Erm, why?
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Yes, I've emailed a bunch of costume salvage to freebies over the past few weeks.
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Originally Posted by Jagged
Can you email attachments to free accounts?
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OK, look at it this way: If you can easily afford to deck yourself with DOs and SOs at every point in the game that you want to be able to, without having to pick your content or sell your drops in the right places, then why bother with inf at all? Why not just make enhancements free?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
The reason I am bringing this up is it seems kind of silly to shut new Freeb players testing us out away from SOs, just to make a point about how tough levels 15-30 are. Come, join our game, fun to play. Oops, level 15-30, you are broke. Haha. Hey level 30, money flows like water, enjoy. Erm, why?
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There has to be some degree of difficulty involved or there's no point in putting any barrier in place. The whole point of the system is so that at early levels you have to make choices; do I fully deck myself out with DOs at 12? Or do I just slot a few into key powers and save up for 17? Or skip DOs entirely and make do with drops until 22 when I can start slotting SOs?
Even once you have your first 50 and can help fund your lowbie alts, you still have to make choices about what to buy as you probably won't be able to afford to keep everyone in green DO/SOs for their whole career even if you wanted to.
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Frankly, since the whole problem you are having revolves around a barrier put into place to block griefers, and the solution to your "problem" is only a minimal investment into the game, I can't see how the dev team will care about losing someone who is not planning on paying. The email method should be more than enough of a workaround, not to mention that with careful slotting there really shouldn't be too bad of a enhancement shortage. Furthermore, the early game is NOT based around SO enhancements. You can go from 1-20 with nothing slotted at all, and 20-30 with just DOs. I've done it, and still do, to save money.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
For those of you who are trying to compare your experience rationally to the experience of people we are trying to market to in today's game market, please take a moment to consider carefully. You are hardcore gamers. By my definition. You have been in the cities for the whole time. We are trying to get those people who started when you did. AND QUIT. Quit because the game made things way harder than it needed to be to play at the basic level. I am not talking about soloing AVs, or even soloing story arcs on +0/x1. I am talking about having the very basic stuff the Devs say the game was based around. Look around at the gaming world, people expect that. If you do not meet your customer's expectations THEY LEAVE. They do not write a e-mail like this, or post to the boards, they just stop playing your game and go play somebody elses where they have fun and can succeed.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I am specifically not talking about making the game super easy, or raising any inf caps, or real money transactions, or any of the other cross talk that keeps coming up.
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I can sypathize with that. This was my first (and still my only) MMO. A lot of the game was overwhelming to me when I started, and I still feel shakey on some aspects of it. But having more inf to spend on enchancements won't fix any of that. In fact it would probably only make the game more complicated.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
However, the city is overwhelming to her. Using maps, trains, jet packs, slotting powers. All new to her.
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The enchancement system is a bit complicated. I was confused by it when I started, and didn't want to spend a lot of time figuring it out right away. So I didn't worry much about enchancements, I just went out there and fought stuff, and mostly slotted whatever dropped. The last thing I wanted to do was jump head first into buying and slotting the right enchancements, even had I the inf to do so (which I didn't). Even as a very casual gamer, I didn't find playing the game with poorly slotted chracter particularly frustrating. Challenging at times, but always fun. Learning how to slot properly was never something I felt necessary, just the next step in the evolution of my playing experience. One I didn't take until I was ready for it.
So really, I don't think not having the funds to fully take advantage of the enchancement system is a drawback for newbies. It may even be a good thing. Let them figure out things like maps, trains, and jetpacks first and worry about slotting enhancements later.
Please stop spelling it "enchancement", it's "enhancement", not to be confused with "enchantment". Enchancement is not a word, it is the ******* child of the other two.
And while I'm ranting, there's no "h" in Exalted either.
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You're doing it wrong. Again:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I am stating a very clear point. The Devs have clearly stated SOs are what the game is built around. If you run regular content and get to 22 and again at 27, you will not be able to afford SOs. This can cost us the opportunity of retaining new Freebs that are giving us a look. That is stupid.
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- Don't buy Training Origins. Either use what drops, or better yet, sell them to the vendors.
- In the 20s, use Dual Origins. Only slot at 22-23 and 27-28. Sell everything you can't use, and sell any Training or Single Origins to the vendors.
- In the 30s start using Single Origins. This does not mean replacing all your Dual Origins, only supplementing them. Again only slotting at 32-33 and 37-38. Don't slot everything to max. Sell everything you can't use to the vendors.
- At 42-43 and 47-49, yes slot only Single Origins. Do so when you can, combine with drops when you can, and don't expect everything to be slotted to +3.
- At level 50, start slotting to 50++, and do TFs to get 51-53 Single Origins.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Use Dual Origins below level 30, use a mix between 30-40, and Single Origins after level 40. Combine what you have with drops.|
Originally Posted by NekoNeko
Why would you slot new SOs at those levels? On almost all my characters, I slot new SOs at 22, 27, 32, 37, 42 and 47 (and I wonder why you'd need to slot new SOs at 50). I guess basically I'm asking for the strategy of waiting the extra level, when you *could* slot new SOs one level earlier. I somehow get the eerie feeling I'm missing something big that has somehow eluded me all this time.
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If you are combining enhancements, you get a bit more life out of some of your enhancements, and save Inf.
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Originally Posted by Jagged
I suspect Snow Globe is suggesting the 3s and 8s so that you can combine with existing enhancements, rather than replace.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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That highlighted portion is basically what I've done since I first started playing the game in Beta. I really haven't gotten into using the Auction House that much since it was introduced, so most of my new characters still use the same enhancement strategies I've used for 7+ years.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Frankly, since the whole problem you are having revolves around a barrier put into place to block griefers, and the solution to your "problem" is only a minimal investment into the game, I can't see how the dev team will care about losing someone who is not planning on paying. The email method should be more than enough of a workaround, not to mention that with careful slotting there really shouldn't be too bad of a enhancement shortage. Furthermore, the early game is NOT based around SO enhancements. You can go from 1-20 with nothing slotted at all, and 20-30 with just DOs. I've done it, and still do, to save money.
No, you're specifically ignoring the reasons why such methods exist and complaining you want it your way. |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You're doing it wrong. Again:
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On my current new character, I'm forcing myself to use the Auction House to sell things off rather than just selling them at vendors, but I'm only doing that with recipes and salvage. Enhancements still get sold at the appropriate Origin stores and the sales of the salvage and recipes makes it easier to slot earlier and better, but none of my characters in the past has missed out on anything by not having the top level enhancements available at all times.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Seriously? I can agree with the first point, I rarely bother to use TOs myself but not using DOs until level 22 or SOs until the 30s sounds like a horribly painful way to play, especially if you solo.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You're doing it wrong. Again:
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Yes, maybe this is how it worked when the game was new but given the way that the game has changed over the years I think it's unreasonable to expect a new player to function that way. Additionally, it does not present the best impression for the game, playing with underpowered enhancements creates the impression that the game is a lot harder than it is which will turn off some potential players.
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There is a hidden accuracy bonus until level 20. Slotting accuracy before then gives a worse impression.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Seriously? I can agree with the first point, I rarely bother to use TOs myself but not using DOs until level 22 or SOs until the 30s sounds like a horribly painful way to play, especially if you solo.
Yes, maybe this is how it worked when the game was new but given the way that the game has changed over the years I think it's unreasonable to expect a new player to function that way. Additionally, it does not present the best impression for the game, playing with underpowered enhancements creates the impression that the game is a lot harder than it is which will turn off some potential players. |
Dual Origins are available to the mid-late 30s, so it is reasonable to conclude that the game is still balanced for them to that point.
Lastly, this is an MMO, you're not expected to solo.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Originally Posted by HexDuke
Run DFB.
Collect 6 leveled SOs. Repeat as needed. You dont have to buy every enhancement on your character. people used to take what dropped as part of the process of deciding what to slot when money was tight, and fill in the really important ones from the stores. |
This is what I did with a new toon on Exalted.
1. Run DFB starting from level 1. Pick Fly ASAP at level 4. Fly to Steel Canyon and sell SOs to the store that matches your origin. (I actually used the rocket board.)
2. Now while standing in store, just enter the queue for DFB. When you exit the DFB, you'll be back at the store and can sell immediately.
3. Keep doing that until level 15 or so. By then, it's worth it to start slotting the Enhc you can use. They're good SOs, and it's cheaper than buying.
4. By level 17 I had half of a dozen SO Enhc slotted and 150k in the kitty.
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I don't think anyone here is trying to build an argument for "the good old days" or "new players should be thankful for what they have." The argument being presented is that the system has been the same since then, and the methods used then are still viable now. Whether you choose to use them to your advantage is your choice, however.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, I get it. It was very hard in the old old (old?) days. I've been playing just over 4 years, so the City I know has always had markets. A lucky drop set me up in SOs until 50. But I also stopped playing characters that didn't get lucky drops...
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
My original concern, as hyperbolic as I was in stating it, is that new players are going to encounter something unexpected in the city of heroes game, being very poor. Think about it, I do not recall any video game where at least basic equipment is not always available to a character. In the City you can do a day or so worth of sewer trials and be flat broke, 20+ level, and have no chance of enhancing.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
For those of you who are trying to compare your experience rationally to the experience of people we are trying to market to in today's game market, please take a moment to consider carefully. You are hardcore gamers. By definition. You have been in the cities for the whole time.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I am stating a very clear point. The Devs have clearly stated SOs are what the game is built around. If you run regular content and get to 22 and again at 27, you will not be able to afford SOs. This can cost us the opportunity of retaining new Freebs that are giving us a look. That is stupid.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I still feel very strongly that the Devs have made a big mistake in marketing. In my eyes I want a new player to be able to move right from TOs to DOs to SOs, and LUST after what the VIPs are using.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
The reason I am bringing this up is it seems kind of silly to shut new Freeb players testing us out away from SOs, just to make a point about how tough levels 15-30 are. Come, join our game, fun to play. Oops, level 15-30, you are broke. Haha. Hey level 30, money flows like water, enjoy. Erm, why?
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Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Except that the bonus accuracy from SOs also kicks in around the the time the to hit bonus drops off. I find that my average chance to hit from 1 DO at level 12-16ish is similar to my to hit chance at level 22 with one SO. The 16-22 part is the tough one.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
There is a hidden accuracy bonus until level 20. Slotting accuracy before then gives a worse impression.
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| Dual Origins are available to the mid-late 30s, so it is reasonable to conclude that the game is still balanced for them to that point. |
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| Lastly, this is an MMO, you're not expected to solo. |
I'll also add that one of the big advantages of CoX compared to other MMOs is that it is very solo friendly. We can debate whether it's worth playing an MMO solo but that doesn't change the fact that for CoX soloing is a valid playstyle.
I wanted to add something about my previous comments in regard to when and what to slot.
Before they gave us the option to turn off earning XP in the Options menu, I regularly would intentionally die to accrue debt so that I had a higher inf earning potential during each 5 level range and also so that I didn't outlevel some of the content.
Now the debt penalty is so trivial (and so quickly paid off) that I have to turn off earning XP to increase early inf earnings and not outlevel some of my favorite arcs and contacts.
There is so much content now in the 20's that it's easy to stock up on inf by turning off XP earnings and running the First Ward, Striga, early Croatoa, Talos and IP missions as well as the Midnighter missions, the FBSA missions and the rest of the newer content that's been added to that level range over the past few years. Not only am I getting to run some fun missions that I enjoy, but I also build up inf and get some nice temp powers along the way.
Doing this has allowed me to start getting my SO's a bit earlier and slotting more fully than I used to and with each set of new 20-30 content they add it just gets easier to build up inf at those levels.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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This is fine if you want to run those missions. However, I feel that it's not the best suggestion to give to a new player.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
There is so much content now in the 20's that it's easy to stock up on inf by turning off XP earnings and running the First Ward, Striga, early Croatoa, Talos and IP missions as well as the Midnighter missions, the FBSA missions and the rest of the newer content that's been added to that level range over the past few years. Not only am I getting to run some fun missions that I enjoy, but I also build up inf and get some nice temp powers along the way.
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One thing I've seen people complain about in other MMOs is feeling that in order to be able to continue leveling they have to stop leveling and spend time "grinding" lower level content for the cash to get the gear they need to continue leveling. Turning off XP to get inf for enhancements is essentially the equivalent of that in CoH. While it isn't a problem for an experienced player who wants to do it in order to experience more content it is the sort of thing that could potentially turn off a new player.
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TJ, I always enjoy reading your posts. I do not always agree with them, but they always add something.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
I wanted to add something about my previous comments in regard to when and what to slot.
Before they gave us the option to turn off earning XP in the Options menu, I regularly would intentionally die to accrue debt so that I had a higher inf earning potential during each 5 level range and also so that I didn't outlevel some of the content. Now the debt penalty is so trivial (and so quickly paid off) that I have to turn off earning XP to increase early inf earnings and not outlevel some of my favorite arcs and contacts. There is so much content now in the 20's that it's easy to stock up on inf by turning off XP earnings and running the First Ward, Striga, early Croatoa, Talos and IP missions as well as the Midnighter missions, the FBSA missions and the rest of the newer content that's been added to that level range over the past few years. Not only am I getting to run some fun missions that I enjoy, but I also build up inf and get some nice temp powers along the way. Doing this has allowed me to start getting my SO's a bit earlier and slotting more fully than I used to and with each set of new 20-30 content they add it just gets easier to build up inf at those levels. |
You play the way I do, when I really want to enjoy the ride. My playstyle is to experiment around with builds/concepts/archtypes until I find something I really really like. Now,during this 'testing' phase I am leveling ASAP, 50 in days, sometimes stripping billions off other toons and running it at 50 to see if I really love it. Once i am sure I park it. Then I make the same character at 1st, and slowly creep thru all content on redside or blueside, every contact, every arc, every side mission. And of course you have to turn off exp. As I am leveling I will strip the billions off the 'test' toon and drop it on the 'story' toon as soon as it levels up to the enhancers.
But the way I do it, and the way you do it, are completely unlike how most new Freemium customers are gonna do it. Things like shutting off experience will not even occur to them.
Freemiums just be a 20 after a weekend playing and realize they are broke. And no matter how many times you say, or anyone says "you do not 'need' SOs, or even DOs" these "Potential Customers" are gonna look at a very unenhanced character and know something is missing. The stuff turning red and the unfilled slots as they level will keep reminding them.
So yes, they deserve nothing, they pay nothing. On the other hand I give a lot of my business to a local coffee shop because they treat me nice, even when its someone I never seen before. They just hire nice people, treat you nice. A similar coffee shop that had grumpy clerks with a "you didnt pay much don't expect much" attitude would not be getting my dollar. -and I just order black coffee. ever. always.
PS, can I get sequential? I'm a neat freak.
I've recommended it over the years to a few friends that, like me, are wanting to experience the content and not pass it up. The additional inf is a bonus for doing that.
Some of us don't play just for the fastest levelling speed. If we were running the exact same missions over and over and over it would be a grind, but since it is different missions and different arcs, we are experiencing the content we like. That is in no way a grind.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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And all the new mid-level content is built for teams. Your point?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The original content maybe but not so much the newer stuff. Mid-level content has gotten noticeably harder over the years. A dramatic increase in the use of ambushes has been combined with foes that are, on average, more powerful than the older ones. The combination
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Again, I have to wonder where you are coming from with this? Given the number of threads on this forum regarding the teaming in Incarnate content I think it's reasonable to assume that we have a significant number of players who do prefer to solo. I'll also add that given the restrictions on free players it's not unreasonable to assume that an even higher percentage of them spend most of their time solo. I know when I started I didn't really team at all until I was past level 45.
I'll also add that one of the big advantages of CoX compared to other MMOs is that it is very solo friendly. We can debate whether it's worth playing an MMO solo but that doesn't change the fact that for CoX soloing is a valid playstyle. |
I team from level 1, except in Praetoria. No one seems to be there. Given the constant stream of Death From Below trials announced on the help channel (even on a server like Triumph), I don't think the lack of teaming is a problem.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Why would you slot new SOs at those levels? On almost all my characters, I slot new SOs at 22, 27, 32, 37, 42 and 47 (and I wonder why you'd need to slot new SOs at 50). I guess basically I'm asking for the strategy of waiting the extra level, when you *could* slot new SOs one level earlier. I somehow get the eerie feeling I'm missing something big that has somehow eluded me all this time.