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1) The definition of hardcore gamer changes from person to person. Very few people tend to think of themselves as hardcore gamers. Most people have definitions of "casual," "average," and "hardcore" gamer that goes something like this:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Your position is you are not a hardcore gamer. You state this because at one time you were new to the game? Is that pretty much it?
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A casual gamer is someone that plays less than I do.
An average gamer is someone who plays about as much as I do.
A hardcore gamer is someone that plays more than I do.
As such, there's really no way to tell what anyone means with this phrase, which makes it useless.
2) What he was actually saying, if you had read it, was that at one point he was new to this game, and MMOs in general, as are some new players now. And AT THAT TIME, it was harder to do what you're suggesting is harder now, and we could STILL DO IT, which kind of invalidates your point.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
1) The definition of hardcore gamer changes from person to person. Very few people tend to think of themselves as hardcore gamers. Most people have definitions of "casual," "average," and "hardcore" gamer that goes something like this:
A casual gamer is someone that plays less than I do. An average gamer is someone who plays about as much as I do. A hardcore gamer is someone that plays more than I do. As such, there's really no way to tell what anyone means with this phrase, which makes it useless. 2) What he was actually saying, if you had read it, was that at one point he was new to this game, and MMOs in general, as are some new players now. And AT THAT TIME, it was harder to do what you're suggesting is harder now, and we could STILL DO IT, which kind of invalidates your point. |
I agree with the first part of that completely Aett. its like speed on a freeway. Anyone faster than you is a maniac, anyone slower than you is a moron.
However, what I am talking about is marketing. Not game experience 7 years ago. NCSoft should be setting up a situation where Freemiums have a fun easy jaunt in the cities. A very fun casual experience, as much as possible. But with signs out everywhere that if you start giving NCSoft cash the experience goes to 11.
I have heard dozens of testimonials in this thread about how easy it is to get SOs and DOs at 15-30. Or, that they are completely unnecessary. Both of these positions have merit, yet in the end are untenable in the context of this conversation, since we are discussing marketing, not gameplay. Set it up so the Freemiums can get what they need to enhance at the SO level easily. Then make it blatantly obvious how much better the VIPs have it.
See what I am doing? Freemiums are having fun, and its cool and easy. VIPs are having much more fun. Dont you want to be a VIP?
Instead, the Freemiums experience can indicate something which is absolutely not true in the cities, that it is very hard to kit out any character at the basic level. Why do we want to show that to them, especially when it is blatantly untrue unless you really strive to make it difficult on yourself? (not marketing, noe e-mailing a new toon cash, etc.) Give them a taste of the good life, but then let them see the mansions soaring just over that hedge.
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Once again, what he actually said was that he was not a hardcore gamer when he was new.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Your position is you are not a hardcore gamer. You state this because at one time you were new to the game? Is that pretty much it?
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Blue, please answer me this:
If the ride is completely easy and carefree as a free player, why would you pay money for it?
Right now, a free player is challenged, but not overly so, in my opinion. If they pay a bit of money, they can eliminate that challenge. That seems to be a better business model than letting the free players just get everything they want for no challenge at all.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Excellent question Aett. The challenges in the game are variable, and largely player controlled, thanks to being able to vary mission difficulty. What would not change with the very small tweak I have suggested is that VIPs still get so much more than Freemium players. And Freemium players can see it. All of the incarnate content, the invention system, SG membership, and hundreds of small benefits, custom tailored to a VIPs preferences. And Freemiums should know this, explicitly.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Blue, please answer me this:
If the ride is completely easy and carefree as a free player, why would you pay money for it? Right now, a free player is challenged, but not overly so, in my opinion. If they pay a bit of money, they can eliminate that challenge. That seems to be a better business model than letting the free players just get everything they want for no challenge at all. |
What the change I have suggested would do is one thing. It would patch the "you are so broke" feeling from 12-30. I do not see what that adds to the game. My position is that can be frustrating for a Freemium player, and there is no reason to needlessly frustrate potential paying customers.
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I don't understand that last sentence. I just looked back over this thread, your posts especially, and it seems to me the conversation is squarely about gameplay. The only marketing you've discussed is in the context of how gameplay is used to (or fails to) market the game to new players. I don't understand drawing a distinction between the two, since no non-gameplay based marketing has been brought up in this thread. So the question remains, if enhancements are not necessary to gameplay, how does that negatively affect marketing? |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I have heard dozens of testimonials in this thread about how easy it is to get SOs and DOs at 15-30. Or, that they are completely unnecessary. Both of these positions have merit, yet in the end are untenable in the context of this conversation, since we are discussing marketing, not gameplay.
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You've suggested that Ironblade and others can't properly relate to the experience of new players because they are now veteran gamers. But I actually think your view may be skewed by your veteran experience. Consider the possibility that you are so used to always having plenty of inf that you can no longer imagine the game even being playable without being constantly equipped with the best enhancements available. But as has already been stated, new players don't come into the game with that assumption. They don't know that their build "sucks" because they don't have all SOs by the time they are level 23. To a newbie, a character that a vet would consider "unplayable" may indeed be very playable (and fun). I cringe when I look at the slotting and builds of some of my older characters and wonder now how I muddled through, but I didn't have any problem playing them at the time. I enjoyed playing them. Nobody told me I wasn't supposed to.
You started this thread talking about your wife. At one point, you mentioned a few specific things that she had issues with, but nothing that really had anything to do with not earning enough inf to spend on enhancements. Has she complained about not having enough inf or enhancements? Does she get frustrated because the enemies seem too difficult for her? You mentioned she was having fun, that sounds like a possitive experience.
What I'm asking is, does she, the new player, think there is a problem, or did you, the veteran, decide there is a problem because she can't slot her character like you think she should?
I decided to create a new character on a Free account today and see how much money I could get after a few hours of playing. I chose Justice server because it's a lower pop server and there would be fewer people online to make it harder to get big teams together than on Virtue or Freedom, and I ran a mix of DfB's and regular missions when those trial teams broke up.
As you can see I managed to get her up to level 15 so far.
And from these pics you can see she doesn't have any special powers or a Market license to sell her drops.
And here you can see that she is fully slotted out with DO's So please answer me this question.
Despite being fully slotted out with DO's and having a remaining balance of over 300k influence. Where is this feeling of frustration I'm supposed to have because I can't afford to buy the top line stuff for my character?
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Or, i guess, talk them into turning off experience for a few days while they grind some farms/story arcs in the twenties.
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| Instead, the Freemiums experience can indicate something which is absolutely not true in the cities, that it is very hard to kit out any character at the basic level |
- Sell your TOs. Don't buy any of them.
- Sell the DOs you can't use. Use your map to find the correct store.
- Start paying attention to what groups drop what. If they drop stuff of your origin, try to fight them more (in newspapers.)
Hmm. Same advice I was given when I started, before we had inventions or markets. Worked then. Works now.
When I made newbie mistakes (when I was, y'know, a newbie,) trying to do things like fully fill up on TOs, getting new ones each time I had a new power and stuff, yeah, money was hard to keep up on and it was hard to slot. When someone told me the things I have under "Advice to a new player," it became worlds easier. I don't believe I ever had a problem after that. I may have gone a level or two with an empty slot, but that really didn't hurt.
It's not hard to "kit out" a character at all when you either find out or have someone tell you those three bits.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
Thanks for the test, Forbin! You just helped me answer a question in another thread. Hope you don't mind me copying your post and putting it there.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Go for it. I hope it helps people out.
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Cite as many as you like. You are still wrong. You plainly stated your description and conditions and I fit them. I know this to be the case.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Your position is you are not a hardcore gamer. You state this because at one time you were new to the game? Is that pretty much it?
I'm trying to talk about the experience of lightweight gamers. People who will happily pay 15 a month and play a weekend here and there. (the people the game should be focused on like a laser) While it is true at one point in time you created your first CoH character and were "new" to the game, you are specifically not the kind of person I was talking about. Your post count is merely one of the examples of this. The other is that you have been a steady customer for 7 years. If i knew more about you I could probably cite 5 other examples of why you are not the target market pretty quickly. |
I was not just new to this game; I was new to online and multi-player games and really not terribly interested in them. That changed over time. But, back then, I was EXACTLY the target market you were describing.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Those positions are NOT untenable and it WAS fun when we were playing 'back in the day'. Everything you say is based around the premise that it is hard or frustrating or impossible to equip your characters without hitting the market or getting external funding. Your premise is FALSE. All those 'testimonials' that you so casually dismiss prove that you are wrong. If it had actually been a problem to us, we would no longer be here.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I have heard dozens of testimonials in this thread about how easy it is to get SOs and DOs at 15-30. Or, that they are completely unnecessary. Both of these positions have merit, yet in the end are untenable in the context of this conversation, since we are discussing marketing, not gameplay. Set it up so the Freemiums can get what they need to enhance at the SO level easily. Then make it blatantly obvious how much better the VIPs have it.
See what I am doing? Freemiums are having fun, and its cool and easy. VIPs are having much more fun. Dont you want to be a VIP? |
The average player is not stupid, incompetent or helpless. Tasks like maximizing your income, managing your endurance, etc are part of the game. If everything is easy, it's not fun because it's not challenging.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I guess "lower pop server" is relative. Yeah, Justice's population is lower than Virtue or Freedom, but it's almost always in the top five, sometimes even #3, more often #4.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I chose Justice server because it's a lower pop server and there would be fewer people online to make it harder to get big teams together than on Virtue or Freedom
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I thought a middle of the road server was an appropriate test. I also conducted the test during the morning to mid afternoon hours in the US when there are fewer players online overall.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I guess "lower pop server" is relative. Yeah, Justice's population is lower than Virtue or Freedom, but it's almost always in the top five, sometimes even #3, more often #4.
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Nicely done just goes to prove that you can do it with out the market|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I decided to create a new character on a Free account today and see how much money I could get after a few hours of playing. I chose Justice server because it's a lower pop server and there would be fewer people online to make it harder to get big teams together than on Virtue or Freedom, and I ran a mix of DfB's and regular missions when those trial teams broke up.
As you can see I managed to get her up to level 15 so far. And from these pics you can see she doesn't have any special powers or a Market license to sell her drops. And here you can see that she is fully slotted out with DO's So please answer me this question. Despite being fully slotted out with DO's and having a remaining balance of over 300k influence. Where is this feeling of frustration I'm supposed to have because I can't afford to buy the top line stuff for my character? |
Prof Radburn controller,Celtic Ice Maiden,blaster,Miss Knockout scrapper,Mistress Davina controller,Stone Hart,tank Split Personality PB.Queen Lostris controller,Fridgid Mary blaster,Shocking Fire blaster Future Elfling defender, Little Weed controller,Capo Angelo MM, Commander Buzzsaw MM, Justice Tank tank all 50,s
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There was never any doubt.|
Originally Posted by Prof_Radburn
Nicely done just goes to prove that you can do it with out the market
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By the way, it wasn't necessary to quote all the pictures, too.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
I've decided to keep the character. It was refreshing to play old style without all the perks I've earned. Tho my power tray felt distressingly empty.
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And I have an even better point, that completely refutes your claim that it will "cost the opportunity of retaining new Freebs"|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I am stating a very clear point. The Devs have clearly stated SOs are what the game is built around. If you run regular content and get to 22 and again at 27, you will not be able to afford SOs. This can cost us the opportunity of retaining new Freebs that are giving us a look. That is stupid.
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The ONLY reason your wife is even AWARE of the discrepancy between her cash flow and a VIP's is because she can look over and see how much money your characters have.
A free player who is not in the same room with a VIP will not be at all aware that they are broke, because they will never have seen what it is like to have millions of influence and rolling in fancy Inventions.
As far as a truly new player will know, they are playing the game just like anyone else. They will not feel the need to have everything enhanced up as much as it can be, because they don't know the difference between a fully enhanced character and a partially or non enhanced character.
In short, the game didn't ruin your wife's play experience. You did, by showing her how much money a VIP player has access to. If she were starting from scratch like a true newbie, she would be playing along blissfully unaware that she is broke by the standards of other players.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
1 year vet here. on my first level 50, I only slotted drops and didnt buy any enh from vendors. It took me 2 months to get to 50. I even did itf with 50+ empty io slots.
is it possible to play the game without any Sos?
Yes.
SOs are nice to have but not necessary for free, premium or vip players.
Your wife has you, so just email her inf like suggested before. As a lady, I would also advise to not worry about SOs and do something special for her today.
I do have f2p friend. I suggested the following:
- logout at ferry for enhancement bonus
- logout at vault/city hall for inf bonus
I said I was comparing myself as a new player to current new players. This was my first online game, my first MMO, etc.
I'm trying to talk about the experience of lightweight gamers. People who will happily pay 15 a month and play a weekend here and there. (the people the game should be focused on like a laser)
While it is true at one point in time you created your first CoH character and were "new" to the game, you are specifically not the kind of person I was talking about. Your post count is merely one of the examples of this. The other is that you have been a steady customer for 7 years. If i knew more about you I could probably cite 5 other examples of why you are not the target market pretty quickly.
This whole thread is about trying to set up a situation where Freemium players get very excited and want to throw cash at NC Soft.