FPvPL11: Proposal to change the structure of the playoffs
By
Artic Keeper,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 02:19 in Everything about PvP
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Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
Would extending the playoffs to 4 weeks be bad? If we can do that we can do a setup that allows 6 out of the 7 teams to play in the playoffs, and it could either be setup so that the top 3 teams have decent matches all the way through, with maybe a couple exceptions, or it could be setup to where the better teams start off fighting the weaker teams, whichever people would prefer.
The problem with the first option is it does in some ways diminish the value of seeding a lot more, but would make most of the playoff matches more evenly matched, and would probably make the playoffs more fun. Every team would be able to play, at the very least, until week 3 (Except the 7th seed), with week 3 knocking it down to 4, and week 4 knocking it down 2 (finals) in either bracket setup. In week 4 the 2 teams who got knocked out in week 3 would play off for 3rd, and whoever got knocked out in week 2 would then faceoff for 4th in week 3 or 4. The reason I think this makes more sense is it would allow most of the teams maximum playtime through the playoffs, with the only team getting none being the 7th seed. It's a good mix of competition and maximum playtime for all of the teams, the only problem is it would absolutely require us to extend the playoffs from 2 to 4 weeks. I already have brackets drawn up for it in mspaint if people want to look at them, though they are hard to read. |
Personally I would rather not extend the playoffs as that approches the holidays and we are already seeing attrition on teams. This will only increase closer to the christmas holiday and you will have teams that won't be able to field 8.
I understand you are trying to get more play time for other teams but CC is already having trouble fielding 8, not sure the state of HB and CN. My team had 8 on to start on Sunday and 9 shortly after, though some of that was because of the freeky oct snow storm, it's much closer than I would have liked though.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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You seem to have read that right however you don't seem to read the rest of my posts. You are completely destroying the need for a regular season. Hell ware could make a new team right now and if somehow able to join the league this late, get two weeks of matches in and make the playoffs and then win it on that team that just won 6 games. Keep it to 2 weeks, top 4 teams and let us pick our opponent as the reward for winning the regular season. Drawing out this league is not in the best interest of all pvpers. Honestly we are in a good position right now to start a new league right after this one. That would be nice.
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Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
The problem is we don't have enough teams to have the seeds be a minority no matter what method we do it in, so I'm less worried about that and at this point, more worried making sure everyone gets the most out of this league. At this point that to me seems like trying to give all of the teams maximum playtime while trying to keep it somewhat competitive. With the current setup I have for that 6 team playoff, you would be fighting all of the better teams basically the whole playoffs, which is what your concern was if I'm understanding correctly, right? You don't want to fight a bunch of matches where you fight the lower seeded teams and what not, but would rather fight teams that put up a better fight, or maybe I just read that wrong.
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That tourney had 8 teams participating. Granted, there were qualifiers, but there were more than 24 teams participating in the qualifiers. One way or another, valid logic may dictate that the playoff system we choose (no matter what it is) is flawed. For that reason, arguing that one type of playoff is logically superior to another is moot. What's left is a matter of who you want to please. To please WARE, possibly the best option is to give them their pick of opponent. To please the most people, possibly the best option is to include the most teams in the most matches. To please Exile/Shenanigans, the best option may be to pit seed 2 versus 3. |
Originally Posted by Daknah
Hemm that tourney also had 24 teams in it during group play if I remember correctly.
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Dex, you don't like my system because you don't like the amount of time away from playing it proposes. I like it because it arbitrarily eliminate teams from competition. I don't like the idea of finals being played off of a point system because it allows for mathematically eliminating a team from winning before the finals are even played.
But that's just, like, my opinion, mannn.
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This is a serious concern influencing this discussion? Really? My team just wants to have fun playing for the most part. If we thought we had a surefire thing to beat you, but somehow lost the opportunity due to another team ousting us...we would just challenge you to a non-league match. Anyone else could do the same.
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Originally Posted by Daknah
1 word. Gunrock.
Now some more words. He/they/it could try to say they could have beaten the wolf pack if they had only not been eliminated by Shenanigans (which is very likely to happen) |
www.battlewraith.deviantart.com
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The 6 team playoff would greatly diminish the value of the regular season, that is true, it was kind of an alternative idea I threw out there to see if I could somehow work all 6 teams into the playoffs, and we could still keep it to 2 weeks long if we did 2 sets of officials on the weekends, but that might be sort of hard for some people.|
Originally Posted by Daknah
You seem to have read that right however you don't seem to read the rest of my posts. You are completely destroying the need for a regular season. Hell ware could make a new team right now and if somehow able to join the league this late, get two weeks of matches in and make the playoffs and then win it on that team that just won 6 games. Keep it to 2 weeks, top 4 teams and let us pick our opponent as the reward for winning the regular season. Drawing out this league is not in the best interest of all pvpers. Honestly we are in a good position right now to start a new league right after this one. That would be nice.
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The other thing that would make the 6 team playoff still dependent on seeding would be to offer some kind of advantage to higher seeds...
For example, 1st seed might get the first 3 rounds or something weighted in their favor, like Hemm said, where they would only have to win 1 match to advance or something along those lines, while 2nd seed would get any rounds not played against the 1st seed before finals weighted, and 3rd anything below their seed, and so on and so forth, down to 5th seed who only gets the weight benefit over the 6th seed or something like that. That would put a fair amount of value in higher seeding, but still allow all of the teams to participate in the playoffs.
It would give higher seeds the advantage of only needing to win 1 match per round against any seed lower then them up until the finals which would not be weighted.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Also, the only team that would not potentially hurt from the weighted playoffs would be WARE, as they would be the only team that would have the weight in their favor against every team until the Finals.
I think the only glaring flaw with that setup provided we also did the weighted seeding would still be the extended length, if it were impossible to either extend the league to 4 weeks or have each team play 2 rounds every weekend, then that 6 team bracket would be impossible no matter what.
If we could get people onboard to do 2 rounds every weekend, it would probably be either Friday and Sunday or Saturday and Sunday, probably at 9 PM est on both days.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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I don't want to extend the season and asking people to give up 2 weekend nights will be bad. You will have teams loosing simply because of no shows, which isn't fair.
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Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
Also, the only team that would not potentially hurt from the weighted playoffs would be WARE, as they would be the only team that would have the weight in their favor against every team until the Finals.
I think the only glaring flaw with that setup provided we also did the weighted seeding would still be the extended length, if it were impossible to either extend the league to 4 weeks or have each team play 2 rounds every weekend, then that 6 team bracket would be impossible no matter what. If we could get people onboard to do 2 rounds every weekend, it would probably be either Friday and Sunday or Saturday and Sunday, probably at 9 PM est on both days. |
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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Agreed, the wolves drink on those nights. And extending the season is a bad idea. GJ Philly ^5
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Originally Posted by Phillygirl
I don't want to extend the season and asking people to give up 2 weekend nights will be bad. You will have teams loosing simply because of no shows, which isn't fair.
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That would definitely be a pretty big issue if a lot of people would have that problem, which is possible. If that's the case then we would just have to go back to either the current setup or the 4 seed playoff.|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
I don't want to extend the season and asking people to give up 2 weekend nights will be bad. You will have teams loosing simply because of no shows, which isn't fair.
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Another thing to consider is if teams can work it out, to have round 1 of the matches scheduled team by team, as in, 1v2 and 3v4 would possibly be on different days depending on what each matchup can agree to, as long as they are done before Sunday, at which point round 2 could happen for every team on the Sunday of week 1, and then round 3 back to the team specific schedule, and then round 4 (finals) on Sunday for the remaining 2 teams as well as the 3rd place matchup... the 4th place matchup could happen at any point between round 3 and and the Sunday of finals.
I would find it hard to believe that teams would not be able to find agreeable match nights for playoff rounds, even if it means possibly skipping a practice or something. It would also allow for flexibility that we don't usually get with the league setup.
If that if also unpopular then we have no choice but to just keep it to the 4 seed playoff, which would probably be changed to single elimination based on what most teams have told me.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
If you pit seed 1 versus seed 2 in the semi-finals of a single elimination final, then either seed 3 or seed 4 is guaranteed 2nd place. That's dumb.
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sounds good to me, seed 2 should've stepped their game up. although I may be bias because i'm on seed 1.
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Originally Posted by hemmingway3
If you pit seed 1 versus seed 2 in the semi-finals of a single elimination final, then either seed 3 or seed 4 is guaranteed 2nd place. That's dumb.
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http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
We're making a simple issue more complicated than it needs to be. Either keep it point based or move to single elim. If we move to single elim I honestly don't think it matters if Ware gets to pick their opponent. They're going to play 2 out of the 3 anyway. I've played in more than 1 league/tournament of various kinds where the #1 seed got to select their opponent come the semi's. It's not unheard of. Again.. whether that's allowed doesn't really matter either.
What we should not do is extend the season or add more teams. It's great to let more teams play, but everyone got to play during the regular season. The playoffs are for the top 4 teams to finish things.
I'd also rather do the semis and the finals in the same night. I really don't see the point of stretching 2 sets of matches over 2 weeks. Run them back to back and call it a day.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
Who the **** cares how the playoffs are set up? The only real question at this point is whether Exile or Shenanigans will take second. So I don't think it really matters who plays who so long as Exile and Shenanigans play each other.
Shut up.
Who cares? The League's won. Points are irrelevant now because of dominant/garbage performances in the past. The statement that "AT THIS POINT - the League is already decided" means little to nothing as an argument to change the play-off structure. Had games gone differently and WARE wasn't working the broom on everyone, it wouldn't matter. Don't bother changing anything because it's a waste of time.
Over-complicating a small, simple league is silly. Just finish it, so I can claim I'm a Champion from the bench and resume perma-banning Hot from Mumble.
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you will do anything for attention.
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Originally Posted by Dexington
Shut up.
Who cares? The League's won. Points are irrelevant now because of dominant/garbage performances in the past. The statement that "AT THIS POINT - the League is already decided" means little to nothing as an argument to change the play-off structure. Had games gone differently and WARE wasn't working the broom on everyone, it wouldn't matter. Don't bother changing anything because it's a waste of time. Over-complicating a small, simple league is silly. Just finish it, so I can claim I'm a Champion from the bench and resume perma-banning Hot from Mumble. |
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
It's disappointing that we won't be able to play against every possible team in the playoffs. I enjoyed doing that last year all in one sitting.
I also feel like a single elimination set up is going to cause teams to lean towards more gimmick-based BS in order to earn wins, but it's whatever.
My only request would to make it either best of 5, or make the matches 20 minutes by default if they are best of 3.
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Originally Posted by Borderline Boss
you will do anything for attention.
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WAT
o
YA
I do like best of 5.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
Going for single elimination I would also advocate best of 5, even if we had to maybe push playoff round starting times back a half hour or so.
I also still like the 6 team playoff better, but it seems like there's little support for it. There is a post on the GP about it that I made that has that idea on a consolidated post as well as the other options if anyone is interested in it still.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Oh wait, Nuggets' opinion doesn't matter, unless Casual fields a whole team.
The way I see it currently, I don't see the point of extended 'playoffs'. If you are planning to do this extension, remember that you are getting closer to Nov/Dec which can lead to holidays/weather conditions (it does snow here once in awhile).
If you are going to have this six team elimination round thingie, I would advise having multiple 'round' fights a night, instead of having the league last six weeks later.
Side note: I just glimpsed over this thread, I am not a 'Football' playoff junkie, I am not a rocket scientist, either way I just do what I am told (especially for you Philly <3) and make a good showing. The Nuggets are fine with whatever decision that is made in regards of 'playoffs', if we even make it out of some crazy apocalyptic circumstance.
"I'M THE TARGET! I'M THE TARGET! THE STALKER HAS SHARKS! AP...AP!!"
@Sepultura
'You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.'
@Sepultura
'You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.'
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12/4 and 12/11 I believe
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Originally Posted by vindizzLe
What's the date for playoffs again?
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"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
The problem is we don't have enough teams to have the seeds be a minority no matter what method we do it in, so I'm less worried about that and at this point, more worried making sure everyone gets the most out of this league. At this point that to me seems like trying to give all of the teams maximum playtime while trying to keep it somewhat competitive. With the current setup I have for that 6 team playoff, you would be fighting all of the better teams basically the whole playoffs, which is what your concern was if I'm understanding correctly, right? You don't want to fight a bunch of matches where you fight the lower seeded teams and what not, but would rather fight teams that put up a better fight, or maybe I just read that wrong.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.