FPvPL11: Proposal to change the structure of the playoffs

Originally Posted by Evo_X

Sooo for what it's worth, I'm thinking elimination would be the easiest.
Point system seems ok for getting to playoffs, but I dunno about during.
It's to messy it seems. Keep it simple.
Sooo elimination mebe?? =P

blo0p

Originally Posted by IronFlag

In The League, U2BG was in 2nd place and the chances of us winning relied on us pulling off something ridiculous..

Originally Posted by The Katalyst

I would would like to have a setup where all the teams got to play in the playoffs, but still put some kind of bearing on the regular season. The round robin thing sounds like it would work, but it would be partially dependent on other teams and what they want to do.

Originally Posted by The Katalyst

So, as it stands, the playoffs aren't really playoffs, but more of an extension of the regular season with some of the matches being more weighted. We're already running into issues where we are being faced with certain mathematic impossibilities because of regular season losses/wins. The outcome of the league as I see it, should not be determined by the regular season before it's even halfway through, which at this point is where it is headed somewhat.

This is the current setup for the playoffs, as stated in the rules thread:
Playoffs will continue the points of the regular season, but only the top 4 teams may participate. The top 2 teams after the semi-finals will faceoff in the finals with each match being worth 2 points, while the 3rd and 4th seed will play in another set of finals only worth 1 point each. During the semi-finals of the playoffs, matches will still only be worth 1 point across the board.
Semi-finals 12/4: 1v4, 2v3
Finals 12/11: 1v2, 3v4

This is not neccesarily the way I wanted to do the playoffs, but for some reason this was the way that people voted to do it.

The problem with this is, regular season messups are much more of a problem under this ruleset than if we go by how playoffs are normally run. Also, this current ruleset is kind of confusing to some people, and can allow for some really dumb situations.

For instance (this scenario is hypothetical), if one team goes into the playoffs with a record of 17-4, gets the second seed, and faces off with the third seed, which has say, a record of 16-5. The second seed wins 2 out of 3 of those matches, putting them at 19-5, and the other team ends up with 17-7. Now the second seed moves to the finals, and loses all 3 matches, but the third seed wins all 3 matches against their team in the third place battle during the finals, putting them at 20-7, meaning even though they lost to the 2nd seed they still somehow get 2nd place even without participating in the finals. This is just one of the inherent problems with this setup. There are a lot of ways that mathematical impossibilites weigh in heavily in this ruleset, like I said before.

Now, the other problem with this, holding that same theme is, certain teams might not even have to win ANY matches in the finals or in some cases, the semi-finals, in order to advance/win. Let's say Exile finishes the season with only 3 losses, and Shenanigans goes on to lose all 3 matches with WARE in the reg. season, putting Shenanigans at 6 losses total by the end of the season assuming they don't lose any other matchups. What this means is if Exile/Shenanigans are the 2v3 semi-final, Exile can lose 2 out of 3 matches but still have a better record than Shenanigans, and would then move onto the finals. At this point, this would mean WARE would have a perfect record assuming they won their semi-finals matchup, while Exile would have 5 losses. This would mean that in order for Exile to beat WARE they would have to win 3 matches in a row against WARE to win, even losing one match would be the end of the season. This scenario is also fairly hypothetical although some of it is based on what we are seeing now.

I think it's pretty safe to assume Exile would not beat WARE 3 times in a row, nor would Shenanigans beat Exile 3 times in a row. Even if Shenanigans did beat Exile 3 times in a row in the semi-finals, they would have to win a 4th match in a row in order to break the tie, then would have to go on to beat WARE 4 times in a row to win the league, which is also very, very unlikely.

IMO, this system is kind of dumb, it allows for regular season mishaps to mean far too much and really stacks the odds in favor of teams that are already winning to keep winning with less effort...

It would make more sense to do it how playoffs are normally run, which is single elimination, and in this case best of 3 or maybe 5 matches. If this isn't how it is done than it isn't really a playoff and we may as well just remove the label of playoff from it.

So the rule would be changed to something like this:

Playoffs will run for 2 weeks following the end of the regular season, after seeds have been decided, with seed 1 vs 4, and seed 2 vs 3. It will be single elimination rounds, with best of 3 (Maybe 5?) matches, with the winner of 1 v 4 facing the winner of 2 v 3 in the finals to decide 1st/2nd place. The losers of the semi-finals will face off on the same night to determine who gets 3rd/4th place.
Semi-finals 12/4: 1v4, 2v3
Finals 12/11: 1v2, 3v4

I know the original concern with this was a supposed good team losing to a supposed bad team with a supposed surprise lineup. The problem with this argument is, if you lose enough rounds in a playoff to be eliminated, then you lost. If a team is truly so much worse than you than you should be able to eliminate them no problem. If they beat you then they are just better, no ifs ands or buts about that. If it would make the people arguing about this feel better, it can be best of 5 instead of best of 3 to allow for maximum leg room for losing matches.

Also, setting up playoffs in this fashion makes for better matches. The matches tend to be more competitive, and teams will generally try a lot harder as each win/loss means the same for both teams fighting. Under the current system, I think the playoff matches will be less exciting for some teams, and will be rather anti-climactic and just overall, less fun.

It should also be noted that I don't think this will neccesarily change the outcome of who wins and who loses the league ultimately if we change it, but it will at least make the playoffs more exciting and make more sense.

tl;dr the current setup for playoffs sucks, isn't really a playoff, and should be changed to how a playoff is normally set up.

I would like to hear what people think about this and what their arguments for/against are for this proposal. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Neuronia

Why run a regular season at all then? There is no incentive for winning if you are guaranteed a spot in the post-season. Just go as is and do 1-4 are in, move on.

Round robin would be fine though...as long as the qualified teams are involved.



3/5 wouldn't be bad, not so hot on double elim. Couldn't it end up in basically the same result? There should be a 2-0 team, a 0-2 team and two 1-1 teams...I'd rather allow WARE to pick their first round opponent for the initial round and go from there.

Still not getting why we need to reinvent the wheel. If Exile are confident they can beat WARE they will get out of round one and do so. If WARE picks Exile as their preferred opponent you get your potential round two lineup up front. Not to mention the longer this goes on the more apathy and boredom will set in...shorter leagues >> longer ones.

Originally Posted by The Katalyst

Exile wanting to beat WARE has nothing to do with the change, not sure how many times I have to say that before people get it.

In the double elim setup the league would only be longer for the final 2 teams, as the other 2 would both be eliminated by the 2nd round, Silit showed me a pretty simple bracket for it.

In any event, with any of the options currently offered in the vote, the league would not be extended, and the option to keep it as is is still there.

Originally Posted by SmokeSignal

Let's just have a spelling contest!

Originally Posted by Phillygirl

I will loose that smakesignal!!

Originally Posted by The Katalyst

We will have a Captain's vote for it on Sunday before officials, Captain's should send me a tell or preferably an in-game e-mail with the following:

1. In a single elim style playoff, would you prefer best of 3 or best of 5?
2. Would you prefer to keep the points system as is or:
a. Change it to an elimination playoff starting with 1v4 and 2v3
b. Change it to an elimination playoff giving top seed their choice of opponent?

In between now and then I would encourage Captain's to get with their teams and figure out what your team wants to do, please don't send me your vote until Sunday, before officials.

Each team will get 1 vote, majority rules.

Originally Posted by Phillygirl

I think Dex already pointed this out but I would like to know the results of #1 before answering question #2 as it could effect the way a team wants to vote.

Originally Posted by The Katalyst

That's fine, if people want to vote on that sooner then Sunday we can just post it before Sunday after we receive a majority either way.

In all honesty, I don't feel all that strongly about any of the options at this point. I think no matter what gets picked people will be upset about it.

Originally Posted by Phillygirl

Perhaps at this point it would be better to just leave it as is then? With the points method we voted on at the start of the league?

That might lead to less drama.

Originally Posted by The Katalyst

I don't really care. If everybody is fine with that then it's fine with me.

Originally Posted by Daknah

With CC dropping I would assume they dont vote.

Originally Posted by Emo_Bitter

You guys are just bad...just bad. Minus Ware.gov.

I seriously don't plan to put any more effort into this League when the "runners" of the League realize halfway through they made some bull ***** rules and now want to change them. You should apply for congress because you are all idiots.

Originally Posted by Daknah

I am very glad that the majority of the captains were level headed enough to look at this change not in a sense of how can we get an upper hand but instead what is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by Silit

They can't stay for one more week to play us? Rofl.