FPvPL11: Proposal to change the structure of the playoffs
By
Artic Keeper,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 02:19 in Everything about PvP
I'm not sure why WARE needs to fight two teams, one of which they would not normally be fighting anyway.
Right now it's looking like:
1.WAREwolves
2.Exile
3.Shenanigans/FAp
4.Honey Badgers/FAP/?
So WARE meets us in the playoffs, all things fall in place they advance to the second round and face Exile/whomever, then likely win (barring upsets, new starts/lineups, clutch plays, etc. etc. etc).
WARE would NEVER be fighting the 3 seed...so why have them fight again?
It should be:
Team 1 vs. 4
Team 2 vs. 3
Winner of 1 vs. 4 vs. winner of 2 vs. 3
Final winner declared.
If you want all teams in the playoffs just have the best teams face each other and the lower seeds face each other them figure it out from there.
Not really seeing any reasons to change current format...teams just need to gel/step their games up to get higher rankings.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
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Quote:
That's probably just smallz she uses tk when we practice with them as well. I agree since it's a banned power it kinda makes it a dumb practice but you can't label a whole team because of one player.
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Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
The points being a continuation of the reg season in the playoffs was what we voted to do, and was brought up by Mage if I am remebering correctly. That vote passed, and then we moved to vote how the matches would be weighted, which was either 1 for semi-finals and 2 for the finals (per win) or both rounds being 2 points per win. 1 semi-final/2 finals was the version that was passed.
You sound a little hostile, so let me explain what I said: Shenanigans refused to practice with WARE almost entirely until fairly recently, and in your last practice with us some of your team mates were using incarnates and TK, both of which are banned, so it wasn't really much of a practice. That's not me trying to be insulting or offensive, it's just how it is. If your team really is trying to compete and win, then I suppose I misjudged, and I would rather that be the case than not. I was not trying to turn this into some kind of e-peen war or debate, I just want to know what people think about changing the playoffs to what I proposed. |
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Quote:
I was trying to strike a balance between competition and giving teams as much playtime as possible, which is why I had losers of 1v4/2v3 fighting in the finals to find 3rd place, while the winners would go on to determine 1st/2nd. If I could figure out a way to do something like that but also have a losers bracket type of deal that would be ideal, but I'm sort of afraid that would force the league to go another 1-2 weeks longer.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
I'm not sure why WARE needs to fight two teams, one of which they would not normally be fighting anyway.
Right now it's looking like: 1.WAREwolves 2.Exile 3.Shenanigans/FAp 4.Honey Badgers/FAP/? So WARE meets us in the playoffs, all things fall in place they advance to the second round and face Exile/whomever, then likely win (barring upsets, new starts/lineups, clutch plays, etc. etc. etc). WARE would NEVER be fighting the 3 seed...so why have them fight again? It should be: Team 1 vs. 4 Team 2 vs. 3 Winner of 1 vs. 4 vs. winner of 2 vs. 3 Final winner declared. If you want all teams in the playoffs just have the best teams face each other and the lower seeds face each other them figure it out from there. Not really seeing any reasons to change current format...teams just need to gel/step their games up to get higher rankings. |
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
So the first 7 weeks of this league was a waste? Did anyone honestly think that ware Shen and exile wouldn't finish top 3? So really it was all to decide who gets 4th spot and fed to the wolves.
Want to know why I want pick of opponent? So we can get 6 matches vs Shen and exile in during this league. Steam rolling the other teams is only mild enjoyment. I don't want exile having an excuse that they could have slain the big bad wolves when Shenanigans knocks them out of the playoffs.
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This is laudable.|
Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
I was trying to strike a balance between competition and giving teams as much playtime as possible, which is why I had losers of 1v4/2v3 fighting in the finals to find 3rd place, while the winners would go on to determine 1st/2nd. If I could figure out a way to do something like that but also have a losers bracket type of deal that would be ideal, but I'm sort of afraid that would force the league to go another 1-2 weeks longer.
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However, you don't want to get into how the old NHL was with the Adams/Patrick/Norris/etc. diviisions and you had really bad teams making the playoffs because 4 out of 5 teams made it in each year....and they were basically speed bumps (I'm looking at your Hartford and 1980s-early 90s Toronto) for the teams that would be perennial contenders. Unlike irl sports there aren't really injuries/media/etc here...it's a video game. Sure you have people with better rigs, teams, skill and that's 100% fine.
If you want everyone to be in it, do it like this:
1 fights 2.
3 fights 6.
4 fights 5.
Winner of 1 vs. 2 gets a bye into finals.
Winner of lower matchups play off.
Top team (1) fights remaining team (3-6).
Winner is declared.
There are a lot of permutations you can go through. I mean MLB has what...four or six teams making the playoffs, NHL has 16 of 30, NFL has ?. Playoffs should be attained on merit, not parity.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daknah
So the first 7 weeks of this league was a waste? Did anyone honestly think that ware Shen and exile wouldn't finish top 3? So really it was all to decide who gets 4th spot and fed to the wolves.
Want to know why I want pick of opponent? So we can get 6 matches vs Shen and exile in during this league. Steam rolling the other teams is only mild enjoyment. I don't want exile having an excuse that they could have slain the big bad wolves when Shenanigans knocks them out of the playoffs. |
OIC
So you don't want an easier pic you want a harder one.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Quote:
4 on each side out of 30 total in MLB|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
This is laudable.
However, you don't want to get into how the old NHL was with the Adams/Patrick/Norris/etc. diviisions and you had really bad teams making the playoffs because 4 out of 5 teams made it in each year....and they were basically speed bumps (I'm looking at your Hartford and 1980s-early 90s Toronto) for the teams that would be perennial contenders. Unlike irl sports there aren't really injuries/media/etc here...it's a video game. Sure you have people with better rigs, teams, skill and that's 100% fine. If you want everyone to be in it, do it like this: 1 fights 2. 3 fights 6. 4 fights 5. Winner of 1 vs. 2 gets a bye into finals. Winner of lower matchups play off. Top team (1) fights remaining team (3-6). Winner is declared. There are a lot of permutations you can go through. I mean MLB has what...four or six teams making the playoffs, NHL has 16 of 30, NFL has ?. Playoffs should be attained on merit, not parity. |
6 on each side out of 32 total in NFL
I don't have a problem with the top seed picking their first round opponent. You'd still need to have others play off somehow though, and that would leave one or two teams in the cold that did not make it in.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
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R1:
1 v 3
2 v 4
R2:
Winner v Winner
Loser v Loser
Is more competitive, achieves the same result, and ensures that the top spot is rightly earned. (As 1 would most likely have to beat off 2 & 3.)
Quote:
This ^.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
R1:
1 v 3 2 v 4 R2: Winner v Winner Loser v Loser Is more competitive, achieves the same result, and ensures that the top spot is rightly earned. |
Makes the matchups a little less lopsided.
Caps should really have a vent meeting and vote on it though.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Quote:
It would be silly to set it up so we were forced to fight seed 3 instead let us pick which seed we fight so as to reward us for earning that top seed. Top 4 make playoffs 1vs any other team of thier choice in the top 4 then the other two teams fight winners fight for first losers fight for 3rd.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
R1:
1 v 3 2 v 4 R2: Winner v Winner Loser v Loser Is more competitive, achieves the same result, and ensures that the top spot is rightly earned. (As 1 would most likely have to beat off 2 & 3.) |
Quote:
I'd personally just do it like this. It's simple and makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
It should be:
Team 1 vs. 4 Team 2 vs. 3 Winner of 1 vs. 4 vs. winner of 2 vs. 3 Final winner declared. |
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Would extending the playoffs to 4 weeks be bad? If we can do that we can do a setup that allows 6 out of the 7 teams to play in the playoffs, and it could either be setup so that the top 3 teams have decent matches all the way through, with maybe a couple exceptions, or it could be setup to where the better teams start off fighting the weaker teams, whichever people would prefer.
The problem with the first option is it does in some ways diminish the value of seeding a lot more, but would make most of the playoff matches more evenly matched, and would probably make the playoffs more fun.
Every team would be able to play, at the very least, until week 3 (Except the 7th seed), with week 3 knocking it down to 4, and week 4 knocking it down 2 (finals) in either bracket setup. In week 4 the 2 teams who got knocked out in week 3 would play off for 3rd, and whoever got knocked out in week 2 would then faceoff for 4th in week 3 or 4.
The reason I think this makes more sense is it would allow most of the teams maximum playtime through the playoffs, with the only team getting none being the 7th seed. It's a good mix of competition and maximum playtime for all of the teams, the only problem is it would absolutely require us to extend the playoffs from 2 to 4 weeks. I already have brackets drawn up for it in mspaint if people want to look at them, though they are hard to read.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
The other option if we wanted to go that route would be if we could squeeze in 2 sets of matches every weekend come playoff time, so you might have 1 set Saturday and 1 Sunday, which would keep the league at it's current length, but would mean you would have 2 sets of officials during the weekend instead of 1, only during playoffs.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Quote:
Yeah (1v2)v(3v4) works as well. My issue was with Kat's suggestion of (1v4)v(2v3) in that it would be placing unbalanced teams against each other, and would make it even easier for WARE to retain the top spot. (Because the 2v3 match would eliminate a potential threat for them. This would, as you have already mentioned, allow whoever lost it to claim that "WARE didn't beat them" and thus claim a moral victory BattleWraith style.)|
Originally Posted by Daknah
It would be silly to set it up so we were forced to fight seed 3 instead let us pick which seed we fight so as to reward us for earning that top seed. Top 4 make playoffs 1vs any other team of thier choice in the top 4 then the other two teams fight winners fight for first losers fight for 3rd.
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E.g.
Option1
1v2 - difference 1
3v4 - difference 1
Option2
1v3 - difference 2
2v4 - difference 2
Option3
1v4 - difference 3
2v3 - difference 1
As you can see. The last option is by far the worst. The other two are reasonably balanced. Having WARE pick their opponent in the final round would be alright, as long as they weren't allowed to pick the fourth seed.
The only reason I'd be against the Option 1 would be because I don't like the idea that either the third or the fourth seed automatically makes it to the final. But as this is a two-horse race for second, I don't see that mattering.
As long as both Shenanigans and Exile have to face WARE, and whichever is the weaker of the two has to face FAP/HB, then I think the playoffs would be both competative and fair. Kat's suggestion of (1v4)v(2v3) wouldn't allow for that.
I think the only way to settle this matter is through a panel meeting.
Since I know that no one actually read this, I'm gonna go ahead and re-post it from the GuildPortal:
Quote:
I only see two drawbacks to this kind of final bracket (and one doesn't really count as a drawback). 1. This is a complicated system... but I figured it out easily enough. 2. This would extend the duration of the league by adding extra matches. Some people seem to want to extend the league, however, so I'm not sure that's a bad thing.|
Originally Posted by Hemmingway3
There is the option of having a winners'/losers' bracket. Similarly to how the losers of the semi-finals would vie for 3rd place in a separate match, one could open the bracket to all teams and have winners advance in the winners' bracket, but losers fall to the losers' bracket. Depending on how one arranged the brackets, the losers' bracket could end in a match for 1st place, or the winner of the losers bracket could go to the finals. This way, losing a match earlier in the playoffs would not knock you out of the running, but make going forward much more challenging.
Here is an image demonstrating the idea This is the finals bracket for a League of Legends tournament. This tournament was started with a seeding tournament in which there were 4 teams in each group A and B. In each group's seeding tournament, each team faced each other team once. The first seeded team from the seeding tournament was automatically placed in the semi-finals. On this image, that is Team SoloMid and Team Epik Gaming. The 2nd and 3rd seed from each group faced off in a relegation match, in which the winner advanced to the Semi-finals and the loser was dropped to the lower bracket for the 5th place match (the winner of which took 5th place). The winners of the semi-finals then advanced to the upper bracket finals and the losers of the semi-finals dropped to the lower bracket for the 4th place match. The loser of the 4th place match left the tournament with 4th place. The winner of the upper bracket finals advanced to the Grand Finals, while the loser of the upper bracket finals dropped to the 3rd place match, in which they faced the winner of the 4th place match. The loser of the 3rd place match left the tournament with 3rd place. The winner of the 3rd place match then advanced to meet the winner of the upper bracket finals for the Grand Finals. Note that in this tournament, the upper bracket finals, semi-finals, and 4th place match were the only matches that were standard best of three. The relegation matches were weighted best of 3 (where if the higher seeded team wins even 1 of the first 2 matches, they advance, but the lower seeded team must win 2 matches in a row with no losses in order to advance). The 3rd place match and Grand Finals were also weighted best of 3s. The 5th place match was a best of 1. Also note that the 4th seed from both groups do not appear in this bracket, as they were eliminated after losing the seeding tournament. One more thing: if one enters this tournament as 3rd seed from either group, you may not lose your first match, and after reaching the semi-finals, you may only lose one match. After falling to the lower bracket, if you lose, you are out. Certainly some people will not be fond of the over-complication of this type of final/bracket, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Also, while the tournament I discuss above had 8 teams, you only need 6 teams for that type of bracket, and as you can see, seeding from the seeding tournament (or in our case the standard league season) is very important. Points certainly do not cease to matter after the playoffs have begun. |
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Originally Posted by DaveMebs
I think the only way to settle this matter is through a panel meeting.
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Presumably every team would have played and lost to Ware by the time the playoffs even occured, so I don't see how anyone could logically make such a claim. If you're just looking to make some lame dig towards me, don't clog this thread with it. If you're genuinely acting as an errand boy for their concerns, make sure the captains settle any complaint about lineups so that we can avoid any further pissing and moaning down the line.
| This would, as you have already mentioned, allow whoever lost it to claim that "WARE didn't beat them" and thus claim a moral victory BattleWraith style. |
www.battlewraith.deviantart.com
As, I confess, it is my nature's plague
To spy into abuses, and oft my jealousy
Shapes faults that are not.
This is something I put together, this is closer to the first option I showed for this format, and would allow all of the teams to play for at least 3 rounds, 4 out of the 6 to play for all 4...
Sorry for the crappy mspaint job.
As I said earlier, this would either have to be done by extending the league to 4 weeks or doing 2 sets of officials a weekend during the playoffs.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Quote:
Perhaps Masq is hostile because of your jabs. Despite what has been said on the forums and in game by WARE , we have actually practiced with them quite a bit, not only that but at times when we were being accused of not practicing we practiced with 4 different teams the same week. Speaking of not practicing, it was Exile that didn't show up last night.|
Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
The points being a continuation of the reg season in the playoffs was what we voted to do, and was brought up by Mage if I am remebering correctly. That vote passed, and then we moved to vote how the matches would be weighted, which was either 1 for semi-finals and 2 for the finals (per win) or both rounds being 2 points per win. 1 semi-final/2 finals was the version that was passed.
You sound a little hostile, so let me explain what I said: Shenanigans refused to practice with WARE almost entirely until fairly recently, and in your last practice with us some of your team mates were using incarnates and TK, both of which are banned, so it wasn't really much of a practice. That's not me trying to be insulting or offensive, it's just how it is. If your team really is trying to compete and win, then I suppose I misjudged, and I would rather that be the case than not. I was not trying to turn this into some kind of e-peen war or debate, I just want to know what people think about changing the playoffs to what I proposed. |
Conveniently enough I don't think we should stick to the points system.
Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
Quote:
That was because it was Halloween and some of us were with RL friends, some of us have kids, and some were at parties or trick or treating (Swag). Either way it's not a regular occurence, and I wasn't trying to take jabs or anything, what I said was my understanding from what I was told, although it's very possible it was exaggerated.|
Originally Posted by Mirage_Mage
Perhaps Masq is hostile because of your jabs. Despite what has been said on the forums and in game by WARE , we have actually practiced with them quite a bit, not only that but at times when we were being accused of not practicing we practiced with 4 different teams the same week. Speaking of not practicing, it was Exile that didn't show up last night.
Conveniently enough I don't think we should stick to the points system. |
In any event, I'm glad you chimed in with your take on the playoffs issue.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Quote:
Ware does not want to have a bye, if we get a bye in playoffs that will make 3 weeks in a row of not playing. (possibly 4 if CC doesn't show up to fight us) So a month of no matches makes things stacked against us imho. Well in reality it doesn't stack them against us but instead it gives teams a glimmer of hope. **** YO GLIMMERS!|
Originally Posted by hemmingway3
Since I know that no one actually read this, I'm gonna go ahead and re-post it from the GuildPortal:
I only see two drawbacks to this kind of final bracket (and one doesn't really count as a drawback). 1. This is a complicated system... but I figured it out easily enough. 2. This would extend the duration of the league by adding extra matches. Some people seem to want to extend the league, however, so I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Summon the Jedi Council. |
Lets break this down really quick.
MLB
30 teams
8 playoff spots
26.67% make the playoffs
NFL
32 teams
12 playoffs spots
37.5% make the playoffs
FPvPL 2011
7 teams
4 playoff spots
57.14% make the playoffs
proposed 6 team playoff structure:
7 teams
6 playoff spots
85.71% make the playoffs
4 out of 7 is (for the mathematically impaired) a majority. That is far more people in the playoffs than there should be. We made a points system for a reason, which was something something make the regular season relevant giving a team a buy does not make it relevant. Hemm that tourney also had 24 teams in it during group play if I remember correctly. You must reward those that proved themselves in the regular season. We aren't even asking for an advantage we are asking to pick our opponent out of the people that make the playoffs, that is if we switch to elimination instead of points.
The fact that you waited this long to ask to change the system tilts my mind towards thinking you finally realized you had to do the impossible to win the league (Not only beat but in fact sweep the wolves).
DISCLAIMER: I am not a captain and I do not speak for my team, however I think they will agree to this compromise of losing the sure fire win in points in order to get to pick our opponent in the playoffs.
Quote:
1 word. Gunrock.|
Originally Posted by BattleWraith
Presumably every team would have played and lost to Ware by the time the playoffs even occured, so I don't see how anyone could logically make such a claim. If you're just looking to make some lame dig towards me, don't clog this thread with it. If you're genuinely acting as an errand boy for their concerns, make sure the captains settle any complaint about lineups so that we can avoid any further pissing and moaning down the line.
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Now some more words. He/they/it could try to say they could have beaten the wolf pack if they had only not been eliminated by Shenanigans (which is very likely to happen)
So
1 or 2.
I would also suggest you don't limit the play offs to the top 4 teams as perhaps some of the other teams would still like to participate in pvp.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.