FPvPL11: Proposal to change the structure of the playoffs
By
Artic Keeper,
Posted on: 2011-11-01 02:19 in Everything about PvP
Also, I know some people feel that if playoffs are set up this way, that regular season wins don't mean anything, which isn't true at all.
First of all, in order to even get in the playoffs in the first place, you have to be one of the top 4 seeds, which is determined by regular season record.
On top of that, getting 1st seed is a pretty big advantage over 2nd seed, as is 2nd a pretty big advantage over getting 4th. Since 1st seed will fight 4th seed, they are fighting the weakest team in their first round, meaning the best of reg. season vs. the worst of the playoffs, meaning that the odds are greatly in the 1st seed's favor. 2nd and 3rd seed would be a much tougher fight for both teams because according to the regular season, they are closer in record, which would most likely mean closer in skill as well. Also, 2nd/3rd seed is a pretty big advantage over 4th for the same reason 4th seed has such a disadvantage over 1st seed.
Just thought I would bring that up as that was also part of the original argument for our current setup.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
I've always preferred an elim playoff system if you're going to have a playoff at all. I don't see the point in a point based playoff system. But, that's how it was voted. So one of three things should happen.
1) Stays as is. We voted, we tallied, this is how it was decided.
2) We change it. Have elim playoffs as suggested.
3) Remove the playoffs completely and end the regular season with a point total leader board with any ties being played to determine position.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
We can just have another Captains vote to change it. Seems like a good idea to me.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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That's what I was thinking, I would definitely prefer we switch to an elim style playoff over just keeping it as is or removing the playoffs completely.|
Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
I've always preferred an elim playoff system if you're going to have a playoff at all. I don't see the point in a point based playoff system. But, that's how it was voted. So one of three things should happen.
1) Stays as is. We voted, we tallied, this is how it was decided. 2) We change it. Have elim playoffs as suggested. 3) Remove the playoffs completely and end the regular season with a point total leader board with any ties being played to determine position. |
Elimination playoffs are generally how playoffs work, I don't think I've ever seen a playoff run the way it is now, and the current system causes a lot of confusion. I've been asked by a lot of people to clarify how the current system works, because it doesn't make that much sense.
If we want to go the route of Captain's vote, just send me a tell in-game or an in-game email or both letting me know what your team would rather do.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
So this is all about ware ruining the league by destroying everything?
Since you are railroading us by figuring out you can't beat us we move to be allowed to choose our opponent in the playoffs since now a team can intentionally throw games to drop rank and some teams aren't willing to put up competitive matches with us. And some teams may be much weaker now.
Also best of 5 ftw.
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For me it has nothing to do with that, I meant to run it this way from the beginning but for some reason this format was outvoted by what we have now. I don't think anyone wants to do this just to "railroad" you. If you're so confident that you can beat anybody then this shouldn't really even bother you. I don't think any teams are going to throw games because most teams aren't so worried about winning that they would do something like that just to put them in a better position in the playoffs. I also don't know any teams barring maybe Shenanigans that are just intentionally not putting forth the effort to beat you. Even teams that are just getting stomped by you are trying to win, even if it is fairly unsuccesful. |
Originally Posted by Daknah
So this is all about ware ruining the league by destroying everything?
Since you are railroading us by figuring out you can't beat us we move to be allowed to choose our opponent in the playoffs since now a team can intentionally throw games to drop rank and some teams aren't willing to put up competitive matches with us. And some teams may be much weaker now. Also best of 5 ftw. |
As I said before, I'm not confident that this will really impact the outcome of this league, and that's not the purpose behind this change. I just think it makes more sense and will make the final matches better matches.
Also, I'm never going to give any team some kind of special privilege in this league such as handpicking opponents, the only exception I have made so far was to save Casual Champions from falling apart, even though they are still managing to fall apart due to non-existant leadership.
They also never really took advantage of the exception I was giving them (offering them to switch people to their core to avoid being DQ'd in week 1 minutes before the matches, which was only allowed because FAP said it was fine.)
I would like to do best of 5 also, but it's possible some teams may have time constraints regarding that, which if that's the case we could also push the start time of matches back a half hour or so to make sure everyone can make it, just for the playoffs.
It should also be noted that this change hasn't actually been made yet, I'm waiting on feedback from more people, Captain's in particular.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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I am curious and it may be that I am just not seeing it but how would droping in rank help someone in the playoffs? Since it's 1st v 4th and 2nd v 3rd droping to 4th offers no benefit at all as far as I can see. What am I missing?|
Originally Posted by Daknah
So this is all about ware ruining the league by destroying everything?
Since you are railroading us by figuring out you can't beat us we move to be allowed to choose our opponent in the playoffs since now a team can intentionally throw games to drop rank and some teams aren't willing to put up competitive matches with us. And some teams may be much weaker now. Also best of 5 ftw. |
Also barring a real upset chaning this probably won't change the outcome of the finals, again unless I am missing something.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Quote:
Not a Captain so this really isn't my place, but I can guarantee that Shenanigans is competing honestly. Also not my place but an elimination based play off makes much more sense than the current one.
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Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
I also don't know any teams barring maybe Shenanigans that are just intentionally not putting forth the effort to beat you.
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Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Well, that really makes my point more than hurts it, and I'm glad to hear that Shenanigans is still trying to compete, and even if you're not a Captain anybody can give feedback on it, but when push comes to shove it will probably come down to a Captain's vote, which I would hope is representative of the majority of their respective teams.|
Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
Not a Captain so this really isn't my place, but I can guarantee that Shenanigans is competing honestly. Also not my place but an elimination based play off makes much more sense than the current one.
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Also, I wasn't trying to take a potshot at Shenanigans or anything like that, it's just that some of your teams practices and lackthereof sort of lead me to believe that that is the case.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
I like the sound of this as it would keep things competitive.
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking/hoping for. I think it will make the rest of the season more competitive, and also make the playoff matches the best matches of the league, which is what they should be.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
I like the sound of this as it would keep things competitive.
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@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
You could change around all the league rules, make a ton of new proposals, or instead of wasting your time just crown ware.gov victors of fpvpl11.
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
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Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
Well, that really makes my point more than hurts it, and I'm glad to hear that Shenanigans is still trying to compete, and even if you're not a Captain anybody can give feedback on it, but when push comes to shove it will probably come down to a Captain's vote, which I would hope is representative of the majority of their respective teams.
Also, I wasn't trying to take a potshot at Shenanigans or anything like that, it's just that some of your teams practices and lackthereof sort of lead me to believe that that is the case. |
I don't recall any instance of points being awarded during playoffs which then are added to the total from the current season.
As far as your posts about Shenanigans. According to your own GP site we have practices 3 days a week against Ware, Exile and HB, you have practices 3 days a week against Ware, Us and FAP. So I think you must be a little loopy from the loss of blood per the MOTD in your backup channel.
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| I think it's pretty safe to assume Exile would not beat WARE 3 times in a row, nor would Shenanigans beat Exile 3 times in a row. |
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oh damn
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
We will have to see wont we?
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http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
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My point which is not easy to make via phone, (no hot I will not text with you) is that we should get something out of finishing first in the regular season thus picking our opponent first round. Seems only fair to me that since you are trying remove our auto win we should get something in return. And yes we will still win this league no matter what scoring format we use, in fact want to decide it by KDR? If so we have a demanding lead (17.47 Shen 2nd with 2.28). That was a joke btw except the numbers that's real talk. It would not benefit us to win the regular season with the proposed change give us a choice of opponents for the first round. Unless you are afraid we would pick you.|
Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
For me it has nothing to do with that, I meant to run it this way from the beginning but for some reason this format was outvoted by what we have now. I don't think anyone wants to do this just to "railroad" you. If you're so confident that you can beat anybody then this shouldn't really even bother you. I don't think any teams are going to throw games because most teams aren't so worried about winning that they would do something like that just to put them in a better position in the playoffs. I also don't know any teams barring maybe Shenanigans that are just intentionally not putting forth the effort to beat you. Even teams that are just getting stomped by you are trying to win, even if it is fairly unsuccesful.
As I said before, I'm not confident that this will really impact the outcome of this league, and that's not the purpose behind this change. I just think it makes more sense and will make the final matches better matches. Also, I'm never going to give any team some kind of special privilege in this league such as handpicking opponents, the only exception I have made so far was to save Casual Champions from falling apart, even though they are still managing to fall apart due to non-existant leadership. They also never really took advantage of the exception I was giving them (offering them to switch people to their core to avoid being DQ'd in week 1 minutes before the matches, which was only allowed because FAP said it was fine.) I would like to do best of 5 also, but it's possible some teams may have time constraints regarding that, which if that's the case we could also push the start time of matches back a half hour or so to make sure everyone can make it, just for the playoffs. It should also be noted that this change hasn't actually been made yet, I'm waiting on feedback from more people, Captain's in particular. |
Masque both the fpvpl and the FML were points through playoffs.
Earning points in the playoffs is stupid. Either have elimination playoffs, or let everyone play in the last 2 weeks.
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You do get something by seeding first... You play the 4th seed in the semi-finals. |
Originally Posted by Daknah
My point which is not easy to make via phone, (no hot I will not text with you) is that we should get something out of finishing first in the regular season thus picking our opponent first round. Seems only fair to me that since you are trying remove our auto win we should get something in return.
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On a different note, I still like my proposal for a 6 team, dual-tier bracket final.
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The points being a continuation of the reg season in the playoffs was what we voted to do, and was brought up by Mage if I am remebering correctly. That vote passed, and then we moved to vote how the matches would be weighted, which was either 1 for semi-finals and 2 for the finals (per win) or both rounds being 2 points per win. 1 semi-final/2 finals was the version that was passed.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
I don't recall any instance of points being awarded during playoffs which then are added to the total from the current season.
As far as your posts about Shenanigans. According to your own GP site we have practices 3 days a week against Ware, Exile and HB, you have practices 3 days a week against Ware, Us and FAP. So I think you must be a little loopy from the loss of blood per the MOTD in your backup channel. We will have to see wont we? |
You sound a little hostile, so let me explain what I said: Shenanigans refused to practice with WARE almost entirely until fairly recently, and in your last practice with us some of your team mates were using incarnates and TK, both of which are banned, so it wasn't really much of a practice. That's not me trying to be insulting or offensive, it's just how it is. If your team really is trying to compete and win, then I suppose I misjudged, and I would rather that be the case than not.
I was not trying to turn this into some kind of e-peen war or debate, I just want to know what people think about changing the playoffs to what I proposed.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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There's a benefit to getting 1st seed and that is that you would fight the 4th seed in the first round, and whether or not you see that as irrelevant or not, it's an advantage. You fight the weakest team in the playoffs, as the strongest team in the playoffs, which would give you the easiest possible win in the first round.|
Originally Posted by Daknah
My point which is not easy to make via phone, (no hot I will not text with you) is that we should get something out of finishing first in the regular season thus picking our opponent first round. Seems only fair to me that since you are trying remove our auto win we should get something in return. And yes we will still win this league no matter what scoring format we use, in fact want to decide it by KDR? If so we have a demanding lead (17.47 Shen 2nd with 2.28). That was a joke btw except the numbers that's real talk. It would not benefit us to win the regular season with the proposed change give us a choice of opponents for the first round. Unless you are afraid we would pick you.
Masque both the fpvpl and the FML were points through playoffs. |
Also Hemm, I don't remember what your idea for the 6 team bracket was, I'm pretty sure it was in a long confusing post on the GP but I don't remember what post that was, so if you want to link it here feel free.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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I disagree Honey Badgers will not be the weakest team in the playoffs. So you are afraid we will pick you?
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Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
There's a benefit to getting 1st seed and that is that you would fight the 4th seed in the first round, and whether or not you see that as irrelevant or not, it's an advantage. You fight the weakest team in the playoffs, as the strongest team in the playoffs, which would give you the easiest possible win in the first round.
Also Hemm, I don't remember what your idea for the 6 team bracket was, I'm pretty sure it was in a long confusing post on the GP but I don't remember what post that was, so if you want to link it here feel free. |
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Originally Posted by Daknah
Masque both the fpvpl and the FML were points through playoffs.
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Good to know, there is the precedence then.
Kat- if you think the system is flawed then just change it or call for a capt's vote.
Honestly, I don't care I just want to play.
So Exile ****** up, Ware won the league, and now Exile want a second chance?
@Psycho Jas
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No, I generally don't get scared about losing on a video game. I don't think this is somehow doing your team injustice, so I'm not granting your team some kind of special privilege in return. Like I said before, this change really has nothing to do with WARE winning the regular season, but I sort of doubt I can convince any of you that is the case, and is also fairly irrelevant to this discussion.|
Originally Posted by Daknah
I disagree Honey Badgers will not be the weakest team in the playoffs. So you are afraid we will pick you?
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I've still only had a few people directly answer the question which is basically pick one of these three choices:
1. Keep it as is
2. Change it to my proposal
3. Remove the playoffs entirely
Or if you have other ideas feel free to post those. It would also be nice to hear reasoning behind people's choices.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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The Captain's vote was offered in the first few posts, after Philly's post I believe.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
Good to know, there is the precedence then.
Kat- if you think the system is flawed then just change it or call for a capt's vote. Honestly, I don't care I just want to play. |
I don't know why people are so hung up on the idea that this is somehow all about Exile wanting to stack the deck against WARE. Hypothetically, Exile could beat WARE even under the current scenario provided we don't lose any more than 1 match before then, but we would have to win 3 in a row when we fight them again.
I don't think there's any instance where I have made decisions or done anything in this league just to do something like that, in fact, I didn't even vote on any of the previous rules , despite not agreeing with some of the outcomes.
Anyways, Captain's should send me an in-game e-mail or tell or both with your vote, unless you would rather sit around and continue to argue about it.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
My choice would be whatever keeps the league going the longest as it will be months (if ever) before someone forgets how big of a headache it is to run one of these and wants to run another one.
So
1 or 2.
I would also suggest you don't limit the play offs to the top 4 teams as perhaps some of the other teams would still like to participate in pvp.
So, as it stands, the playoffs aren't really playoffs, but more of an extension of the regular season with some of the matches being more weighted. We're already running into issues where we are being faced with certain mathematic impossibilities because of regular season losses/wins. The outcome of the league as I see it, should not be determined by the regular season before it's even halfway through, which at this point is where it is headed somewhat.
This is the current setup for the playoffs, as stated in the rules thread:
Playoffs will continue the points of the regular season, but only the top 4 teams may participate. The top 2 teams after the semi-finals will faceoff in the finals with each match being worth 2 points, while the 3rd and 4th seed will play in another set of finals only worth 1 point each. During the semi-finals of the playoffs, matches will still only be worth 1 point across the board.
Semi-finals 12/4: 1v4, 2v3
Finals 12/11: 1v2, 3v4
This is not neccesarily the way I wanted to do the playoffs, but for some reason this was the way that people voted to do it.
The problem with this is, regular season messups are much more of a problem under this ruleset than if we go by how playoffs are normally run. Also, this current ruleset is kind of confusing to some people, and can allow for some really dumb situations.
For instance (this scenario is hypothetical), if one team goes into the playoffs with a record of 17-4, gets the second seed, and faces off with the third seed, which has say, a record of 16-5. The second seed wins 2 out of 3 of those matches, putting them at 19-5, and the other team ends up with 17-7. Now the second seed moves to the finals, and loses all 3 matches, but the third seed wins all 3 matches against their team in the third place battle during the finals, putting them at 20-7, meaning even though they lost to the 2nd seed they still somehow get 2nd place even without participating in the finals. This is just one of the inherent problems with this setup. There are a lot of ways that mathematical impossibilites weigh in heavily in this ruleset, like I said before.
Now, the other problem with this, holding that same theme is, certain teams might not even have to win ANY matches in the finals or in some cases, the semi-finals, in order to advance/win. Let's say Exile finishes the season with only 3 losses, and Shenanigans goes on to lose all 3 matches with WARE in the reg. season, putting Shenanigans at 6 losses total by the end of the season assuming they don't lose any other matchups. What this means is if Exile/Shenanigans are the 2v3 semi-final, Exile can lose 2 out of 3 matches but still have a better record than Shenanigans, and would then move onto the finals. At this point, this would mean WARE would have a perfect record assuming they won their semi-finals matchup, while Exile would have 5 losses. This would mean that in order for Exile to beat WARE they would have to win 3 matches in a row against WARE to win, even losing one match would be the end of the season. This scenario is also fairly hypothetical although some of it is based on what we are seeing now.
I think it's pretty safe to assume Exile would not beat WARE 3 times in a row, nor would Shenanigans beat Exile 3 times in a row. Even if Shenanigans did beat Exile 3 times in a row in the semi-finals, they would have to win a 4th match in a row in order to break the tie, then would have to go on to beat WARE 4 times in a row to win the league, which is also very, very unlikely.
IMO, this system is kind of dumb, it allows for regular season mishaps to mean far too much and really stacks the odds in favor of teams that are already winning to keep winning with less effort...
It would make more sense to do it how playoffs are normally run, which is single elimination, and in this case best of 3 or maybe 5 matches. If this isn't how it is done than it isn't really a playoff and we may as well just remove the label of playoff from it.
So the rule would be changed to something like this:
Playoffs will run for 2 weeks following the end of the regular season, after seeds have been decided, with seed 1 vs 4, and seed 2 vs 3. It will be single elimination rounds, with best of 3 (Maybe 5?) matches, with the winner of 1 v 4 facing the winner of 2 v 3 in the finals to decide 1st/2nd place. The losers of the semi-finals will face off on the same night to determine who gets 3rd/4th place.
Semi-finals 12/4: 1v4, 2v3
Finals 12/11: 1v2, 3v4
I know the original concern with this was a supposed good team losing to a supposed bad team with a supposed surprise lineup. The problem with this argument is, if you lose enough rounds in a playoff to be eliminated, then you lost. If a team is truly so much worse than you than you should be able to eliminate them no problem. If they beat you then they are just better, no ifs ands or buts about that. If it would make the people arguing about this feel better, it can be best of 5 instead of best of 3 to allow for maximum leg room for losing matches.
Also, setting up playoffs in this fashion makes for better matches. The matches tend to be more competitive, and teams will generally try a lot harder as each win/loss means the same for both teams fighting. Under the current system, I think the playoff matches will be less exciting for some teams, and will be rather anti-climactic and just overall, less fun.
It should also be noted that I don't think this will neccesarily change the outcome of who wins and who loses the league ultimately if we change it, but it will at least make the playoffs more exciting and make more sense.
tl;dr the current setup for playoffs sucks, isn't really a playoff, and should be changed to how a playoff is normally set up.
I would like to hear what people think about this and what their arguments for/against are for this proposal. Thanks.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.