Discussion: Announcing Issue 21: Media Blitz!

It just tells part of the playerbase that they are second class citizens.

You ARE. Know your role, peon, and get in the back of the line where you belong, or I'll have the guards escort you back to your impoverished hut! If you're lucky and I'm feeling merciful, you may be the recipient of extra gruel.

Oh, wait, we're talking about not being able to get extra powers in a video game because you're not willing to do what it takes to get said powers? Yeah, okay, totally the same thing!

Why would anyone do content they don't like over and over again for virtually no benefit? There's no requirement to do that.

Well, one might suggest that sitting around doing nothing while waiting for the queue to fill or for a raid to form is more a problem not be willing to not do the same work.

Soloing allows for more activity, but less produced from that activity under the current system.

And in any future system

Probably. But it amuses me in a way (and frustrates me a bit in another) that engaging more in "productive activity" actually results in less production.

Well I think part of it is that the rest of the game can be solo'ed but there's no solo endgame content.

And it's more about choice. Do I feel like joining a huge crew to go through this multi-part event or do I want to just run around by myself and get some similar (albeit lesser) reward? Or even if I do *want* to go into the Trials, can I find a group? It's easy at peak activity but if I'm stuck at odd hours I might not be so lucky.

Really I think this is mostly growing pains. We stand at a bottleneck right now, because the game hasn't *had* endgame content before, so now that we're getting some people expect it to be fully developed, when we're really just seeing it grow step by step. I'm not really worried about it getting to 'what everyone wants' in time, people will just have to be patient. The developers are still laying out the ground work and it's a labor intensive process, so it's doling out in steps.

It's not the "benefit," it's the fact I'm locked out of it if I don't have the time or am not available when my server does the "Right, let's get 24 people together for this and waste a bunch of time doing so before we can start."

With a solo path, I can make progress even if everyone's concentrating on the new-shiny (say, the holiday event) or is burned out on the latest trial, or I only have X amount of time and want to go through it at my own pace (as opposed to "OK, everyone, rush around and hope you know what you're doing.")

MMO does not mean YOU MUST TEAM. You *can* play with other people. MMO means nothing more than you share a persistent world with a large number of other people (as opposed to, say, L4D, Dead Island, etc. where you're severely limited.) That is ALL "MMO" means.

Besides, the *majority* of content in this game is soloable. Or they can be done with *small* teams - note how the old TFs tend to be ignored, and the new (or redone) ones have smaller requirements, no more "Must have 8 people (and keep them throughout - hello, Cavern)" for the most part. No other system locks you out of it completely if you don't have 30 people with you. (And no, shard conversion is not in the *slightest* bit a 'realistic' alternative.) AE? Find something soloable. Inventions? Can get them solo. There's no "need to team" to get from 40-50, for instance... and then we hit the Incarnate system, the Puddle of Annoyance, and the "Must team, must grind raids" design.

Besides, this is supposed to be your character reaching their ultimate power. I SHOULD be facing off against gods and such solo. It just seems a bit *ridiculous* to say "Yes, you've soloed archvillains, you've fought against the worst odds and come out ahead, you're now going to be even more powerful - but you can't do jack without at least 15 other people as powerful as you are." Eh? Sure, there are a few threats I could see taking that sort of power ("Defeat Ruularu, once and for all" for instance,) but not "That's the only way you have open to you."

See my Guides and Tutorials

You will get some solo Incarnate content eventually - but it's going to be a lot slower progression, which means that if you think that he Trials are a "grind", then the solo Incarnate content will be even more of a "grind" to you.

Given that the problem with the raid grind is based on repetition rather than time taken, I'd say that it's not necessarily going to be the same problem. Then I remember that a 20 minute (if your the type that actually takes the time to read the text), three mission story arc is apparently worth $5 and realized that, yes, the solo path will be a grind too.

Well, it's unlikely they'll make dozens of Incanrate arcs - it's more likely that there'll be 2-3 to start with, and a few more added over time - so thre solo path will be the constant replaying of the same handful of arcs, hoping that the random reward table at the end gives you the rare/very rare component you're looking for, and if it doesn't, you've got a 20 hour cooldown timer on each arc before you can try again.
And considering that there have been 20+ streaks of common drops for some people during the Trials, a similar streak like that on the Incarnate arcs would be just as likely - plus, with the need to make the arcs challenging, that will mean ambush and EB heavy missions that not every AT or power set can solo.

They're unlocked as a rare reward drop on the TPN Trial.

You are silly and willfully misreading me if you for even a second thought I was talking about anything other than the way we are treated by the game. It's dumb to even jump to that obvious strawman.

Did you bother to even read the post I responded to, or did you simply reply to my post as if it were in a vacuum?
Just for your convenience, here is the post I responded to...
So, no, I didn't say that I do content I don't like. I will never get any of these new powers on any character that already has one. (note the subtle difference between grinding for a first incarnate power and grinding for a replacement one) All, I said I expected the developers to produce content I do like in exchange for my money. And then I explained why the content they did make (in this case the new incarnate trees) does not fulfill that requirement.

Clear now?

The problem is convenience.

I can get together a half dozen of my friends and play a real RPG and have 10 times the fun I have ever or will ever have in this game.

What I can't do is all that in the half hour I have before I need to go to work on a Wednesday morning. MMOs provide a compromise. Convenience in exchange for the experience not being perfectly customized to what I would like.

Gating the content behind getting 2 dozen people ready removes the convenience without giving anything in return.

I read everything in threads I respond to.


Thanks for reminding me what you quoted. Now let me remind you what you actually said:

You said the problem is "end game grinding that requires a dozen people and has virtually no benefit". How can end game grinding with no benefit be a problem, because no one would do *any* grinding that had no benefit.

Any content with no benefit and feels like grinding when you do it has a trivial way to respond to it: you ignore it. There is zero impact on a player that ignores content that feels like grinding when they do it, and has no benefit when they do it.

By definition, grinding and lack of benefit are incompatible for rational people. Rational people do not grind content that they perceive to have no benefit. They ignore content they don't like with no benefit, and they grind content they perceive to have a benefit that is high enough to warrant grinding. So your statement about "grinding for no benefit" is illogical.

What you perceive "grinding" for is different from what other people perceive is worth "grinding" for. So the correct response to content you don't like and don't see the value of running repetitively is to not run it repetitively. But its there for other people who have different values than you, so its not problematic that it exists, because the game isn't designed only for you.

I would think this was so obvious I would only need to hint at it for most rational people to get the point. I can see you are someone for whom explanations need to be much more thorough, and I will file that away for future reference.

And you are treating this like it is just 1 or 2 new things. It isn't. This is the entire theory behind the endgame. The decision to make many, mutually exclusive powers cannot help but make duplicate, repetitive content.

The Trials have all been pretty unique so far.

I am treating what you said as if it was what you meant. The "entire theory behind the endgame" I subscribe to says that creating options tends to be a good thing, even if the side effect is that completists will have to execute vastly more repetitions of the same content to acquire it all. The alternative to is reduce the number of options to the maximum allowable without repeating content, which limits repeat play. I've already seen what that does to standard content in another superhero MMO, and I wouldn't support it here myself.

An "entire theory" of the endgame would account for this.

Shush, second-class citizen! You don't have Tier4s in all the incarnate abilities, you're not entitled to an opinion! I mean obviously, because you have some limitation which prevents you from engaging in large-scale team content (whether that limitation is real or self imposed), you are a lesser being.

Now return to your hut, knave! I've revoked your extra gruel for daring to speak back to me! Pray that I don't revoke your standard rations on top of that!

...But no, "the game" (...aw dammit, just lost >_<) doesn't treat you like a second class citizen. There's no content in the game that is now harder for you because you're not as powerful as other players. That's a manifestation of your own ego. If you feel like a second class citizen because you don't have the explodey power that kills 32 guys at once, that's YOUR issue.

I am going to have disagree here. While I have nothing against BaFs/Lambdas they are just overrun I think the Devs should continue making harder and more challenging trials, like the UG showed us the harder they are the bigger the reward. Ive done so many BaF's and Lams now that I don't even want to do trials any more and sadly no one does UGs or Keyes cause they are more difficult. In reality though they aren't very hard at all if you follow the simple instructions posted in giant red letters pasted across the screen and I say this even after failing countless UG's because of the the Grasp of Geja healing Hamidon to 100%, but those problems will be fixed with time as players get more use to these kind of trials. The BaF is a great way to get your powers started for the new level 50 but once you get 50+(1-3) it is nice to move on to something more challenging and that isn't being farmed 250 times a day. I support the idea to make challenging trials that require team work and the full attention of the players instead of just a wave of 24 players flooding nearby enemies. Although I think every player should get at least a piece of the pie and so I also support the idea of new short and not too hard of trials for the players that just want to do it quick, fast, and painless trial; I just fear them becoming like the BaFs/Lams where you can do them in your sleep they have been ran so many times.