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Then why didn't she talk? |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think the point that the TV show did not bring up any overt "communication problems" pretty much proves she was not mute and was never supposed to be.
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| I would think based on how much of a P.O.S. the husband was in the TV show it would have been painfully obvious to all the other characters (and should have it to the audience as well) that Sophia was in a sad family situation to begin with. I don't think it would have been a shock to anyone to understand (especially in light of the ZA) why she would likely be fairly unresponsive and extremely introverted toward nearly everyone. It's also completely understandable why such a girl might be more willing to be open with another child like Carl because like her Carl is not an "evil adult" so she could more easily relate to Carl than any other adult in that situation. |
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I understand (based on some of the things you've written) that you might be upset that the Sophia character was significantly changed when they ported her from the comic book to the TV show. But just because you don't like what happened to her does not mean that they did not adequately establish the background of the TV version of the character on the TV show. You've got to remember that the creators of the TV show (which include's Kirkman) has firmly established that the comic book is -not- canon for the TV show. Again I can understand liking one version of a character more than another, but there was absolutly no reason why TV Sophia had to be anything like comic book Sophia. To be honest the TV version of Sophia seemed far more realistic to me than the comic book version because based on everything that's happened to the character it made a lot more sense for her to have been withdrawn and untalkative than to be almost blissfully flirty with Carl like she was. |
I'm not upset because they changed it. It's just irritating that they can't preserve storytelling strength as they're making the changes.
Also, in the comic we meet Sophia after her father's gone when her and her mother probably became more free-spirited or didn't face abuse to the degree they implied in the show.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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I honestly don't understand why this is such a sticking point with you. It's pretty safe to say she was talking at least to Carl on the show. The fact that we didn't see her enough to have her deliver Shakespeare-like soliloquies directly to the audience didn't automatically make me jump to the conclusion that she must be mute or had to have her silence explained to me.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Then why didn't she talk?
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Clearly the TV show never really intended her to be much more of a character beyond being a tragic symbol that was going eventually be put down by Rick in a tragically climactic scene. That kind of character doesn't really have to be "Chatty Cathy" to serve their purpose.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
The thing is, though, that's just speculation to supplement the lack of aforementioned groundwork.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Oy, this again.
I'm not upset because they changed it. It's just irritating that they can't preserve storytelling strength as they're making the changes. Also, in the comic we meet Sophia after her father's gone when her and her mother probably became more free-spirited or didn't face abuse to the degree they implied in the show. |
And as far as "preserving storytelling strength" goes I would actually argue that by showing her abusive father (instead of just hinting about it like the comic did) the TV show actually did a BETTER job of defining the Sophia character and giving her a solid justification for acting the way she did.
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Uh, it's not a "sticking point" (since we're clearly into the using-air-quotes-to-annoy-stage of this discussion). I just said it was something I noticed and I asked if anyone remembers her talking.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I honestly don't understand why this is such a sticking point with you. It's pretty safe to say she was talking at least to Carl on the show. The fact that we didn't see her enough to have her deliver Shakespeare-like soliloquies directly to the audience didn't automatically make me jump to the conclusion that she must be mute or had to have her silence explained to me.
Clearly the TV show never really intended her to be much more of a character beyond being a tragic symbol that was going eventually be put down by Rick in a tragically climactic scene. That kind of character doesn't really have to be "Chatty Cathy" to serve their purpose. |
I didn't say she should talk everyone's ear off. I said if they went the whole show without her talking it would've been a missed opportunity for the writers--at minimum--to touch on why she never talked and use this as part of her character rather than rely solely on the fact that she's a child to make her death and turning into a zombie tragic.
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| It's not really pure "speculation" when we directly know her father was a nasty guy and it's very common for children in abusive situations to have social problems of one kind or another. Her being an untalkative introvert didn't seem "out of character" at all for her. |
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| You realize you just answered your own question with this don't you? Yes perhaps in the comic we see Sophia at a point where she's gotten past being influenced by her bad father and has become more social. But in the TV show we still have her father around to keep her shut down. With her abusive father right there of course she's going to be more repressed - exactly the way we saw her. Why is this so mysterious to you? |
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| And as far as "preserving storytelling strength" goes I would actually argue that by showing her abusive father (instead of just hinting about it like the comic did) the TV show actually did a BETTER job of defining the Sophia character and giving her a solid justification for acting the way she did. |
- CaptainFoamerang
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CF has stated more than once that he doesnt enjoy the direction the show has taken. I think this is another reason to help confirm for him how poorly the show is being done. For me, the point of Sophia not speaking is as much of a non issue as the 3 pages of discussion about how to properly gut an animal or some of the other ideas that have floated around the thread about things that werent done very realistically.
You dont have to be a fan of the show to be involved in the conversations here, but I dont see why you (Lothic) would go back and forth with him. CF already has it set in his head how he feels about this deal and no in depth explainations or commom sense approach from anyone that enjoys the show is likely to change his opinion.
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That's assuming, of course, that common sense can be used to defend this show's missteps.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
CF has stated more than once that he doesnt enjoy the direction the show has taken. I think this is another reason to help confirm for him how poorly the show is being done. For me, the point of Sophia not speaking is as much of a non issue as the 3 pages of discussion about how to properly gut an animal or some of the other ideas that have floated around the thread about things that werent done very realistically.
You dont have to be a fan of the show to be involved in the conversations here, but I dont see why you (Lothic) would go back and forth with him. CF already has it set in his head how he feels about this deal and no in depth explainations or commom sense approach from anyone that enjoys the show is likely to change his opinion. |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to the episode where Sophia talks so I can shut up about this. 
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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Eh, maybe I just think people should hate thing for substantive reasons, not semi-silly nit-picky one. One more time I'm willing to accept when the two stories (comic and TV) do both good things and bad things. I suppose it's just very hard for me to think of one version being 100% bad and the other being 100% good. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
CF has stated more than once that he doesnt enjoy the direction the show has taken. I think this is another reason to help confirm for him how poorly the show is being done. For me, the point of Sophia not speaking is as much of a non issue as the 3 pages of discussion about how to properly gut an animal or some of the other ideas that have floated around the thread about things that werent done very realistically.
You dont have to be a fan of the show to be involved in the conversations here, but I dont see why you (Lothic) would go back and forth with him. CF already has it set in his head how he feels about this deal and no in depth explainations or commom sense approach from anyone that enjoys the show is likely to change his opinion. |
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That's all I'm using here. Better luck with your next argument...|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
That's assuming, of course, that common sense can be used to defend this show's missteps.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to the episode where Sophia talks so I can shut up about this.
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Regardless I already agreed she effectively says nothing that I can recall, but there might have been a few times when she acknowledged someone with a quick "yes" or "no" or the like. I just for the life of me can't understand why effectively no dialogue from a relatively minor character had to become a question of muteness or not. If you want to harp on this show there are probably dozens of different ways to rip it apart better than this.
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You can if you want.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I still have the first season on my TiVo so I could bother to skim back though it if you'd like.
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Regardless I already agreed she effectively says nothing that I can recall, but there might have been a few times when she acknowledged someone with a quick "yes" or "no" or the like. I just for the life of me can't understand why effectively no dialogue from a relatively minor character had to become a question of muteness or not. If you want to harp on this show there are probably dozens of different ways to rip it apart better than this.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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Sophia was a cute little innocent girl who didn't deserve to be zombified and put down.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
The fact that they blew up the significance of her being missing and dead, thereby increasing her profile without any characterization to prop it up is simply indicative of what's wrong with the show. If the people behind the show are going to invite scrutiny by having a show to discuss the show and proclaim it as character-driven, then they should put their money where their mouth is, that's all.
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Did you have to have that "explained" to you?
Her character was simplicity itself.
She served as a living (then undead) symbol of everything bad about the ZA.
It was a very important and climactic purpose and the show didn't have to "explain" her inner workings as a person to accomplish that.
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I think I'll just post my comprehensive assessment of this show rather than give you what seem like small elements of it that tie into other ones that just lead to small expansions on what I've already said.
I'll say this before, though: You seem to be lumping me in with those previously mentioned folk who think the show is all bad and the comic is all good without recognizing the times I've pointed out the things I liked about episodes or realizing that in threads for shows that I generally like, I don't refrain from pointing out weaknesses in storytelling and characterization.
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It seems like common sense to me that the kid comes from an abusive environment explaining why she isnt an extrovert or even talkative at all. Im not defending the show, its producers or the storytelling, all I can say is that I enjoy The Walking Dead. I have been critical of this and other shows but if my criticisms start to outweigh my enjoyment...Ill just stop watching. |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
That's assuming, of course, that common sense can be used to defend this show's missteps.
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I know you feel strongly about your opinion of this and other elements...thats whats so great about opinions, everyone has them. I dont see the point though in debating opinions...all people can do is express their own and if that doesnt convince someone otherwise, there doesnt seem like much of a point in going back and forth for two+ pages about why Sophia doesnt talk. Im not saying you shouldnt go on about this or anything else you dont like, but I just didnt think the thread was going to focus on stuff like this as much.
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That's the connection that we are forced to make to supplement their lazy storytelling. One of the more general issues with the show is the lack of commitment to things, and in this instance they didn't commit to making us care about Sophia any more than they did the red shirts that were killed on the night of the fish fry, because we care about the ones we know and we didn't know her. And, if there was a commitment to simply using her death as a symbol and a device to drive the characterization of others, the plotline would have been over sooner, affording more time for the fallout.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
It seems like common sense to me that the kid comes from an abusive environment explaining why she isnt an extrovert or even talkative at all. Im not defending the show, its producers or the storytelling, all I can say is that I enjoy The Walking Dead. I have been critical of this and other shows but if my criticisms start to outweigh my enjoyment...Ill just stop watching.
I know you feel strongly about your opinion of this and other elements...thats whats so great about opinions, everyone has them. I dont see the point though in debating opinions...all people can do is express their own and if that doesnt convince someone otherwise, there doesnt seem like much of a point in going back and forth for two+ pages about why Sophia doesnt talk. Im not saying you shouldnt go on about this or anything else you dont like, but I just didnt think the thread was going to focus on stuff like this as much. |
Also, if you'll notice, I've not been jumping on people for disagreeing with them about their opinion of the show. I asked a question then remarked on how they missed out on character moment opportunities.
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Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you can call them not explicitly stating why Sophia's not chatty as lazy storytelling. I still can't conceive of any scenario where it *could* be explained, and not come off worse than just ignoring it.
If one of the character's asked her directly, she'd most likely just shrug. If one of them asked her mother about it, she'd also likely just shrug, and maybe add "oh...she's just a quiet girl". She's certainly not going to say "Oh...well, her father beats us, so she's withdrawn". Or after the father reverts to type, are you wanting one of the group to turn to the others and say "I bet he's the reason she's so quiet"? At that point it's obvious to anyone that's watched "a very special episode" of a sit-com...explaining it outright then is almost insulting.
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I hope I didnt imply that you were jumping on anyone in disagreement with their opinion.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
That's the connection that we are forced to make to supplement their lazy storytelling. One of the more general issues with the show is the lack of commitment to things, and in this instance they didn't commit to making us care about Sophia any more than they did the red shirts that were killed on the night of the fish fry, because we care about the ones we know and we didn't know her. And, if there was a commitment to simply using her death as a symbol and a device to drive the characterization of others, the plotline would have been over sooner, affording more time for the fallout.
Also, if you'll notice, I've not been jumping on people for disagreeing with them about their opinion of the show. I asked a question then remarked on how they missed out on character moment opportunities. |
You call it lazy storytelling and missed opportunities, others say otherwise pointing towards strong storytelling vs nitpicking. It is what it is.
What do you enjoy about the show? Thats what Id rather focus on.
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Perhaps I'm not expressing myself in a manner to properly convey my line of thinking so I'll just lay it out like this:|
Originally Posted by Furio
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you can call them not explicitly stating why Sophia's not chatty as lazy storytelling. I still can't conceive of any scenario where it *could* be explained, and not come off worse than just ignoring it.
If one of the character's asked her directly, she'd most likely just shrug. If one of them asked her mother about it, she'd also likely just shrug, and maybe add "oh...she's just a quiet girl". She's certainly not going to say "Oh...well, her father beats us, so she's withdrawn". Or after the father reverts to type, are you wanting one of the group to turn to the others and say "I bet he's the reason she's so quiet"? At that point it's obvious to anyone that's watched "a very special episode" of a sit-com...explaining it outright then is almost insulting. |
Sophia talking = Sophia's personality taking shape = Characters forming relationship with Sophia = Audience forming relationship with Sophia = Audience caring about her fate
It seems like the writers just glossed over nearly all of it and took the last part for granted. They didn't even bother to swap out her dialogue for any meaningful moments with her. It's lazy writing.
- CaptainFoamerang
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Didn't she ask to go with Rick, Lori and Carl to the Grand Canyon in like episode 1 of this season? And the response was basically "of course sweetie, we'd never go anywhere without you". Perhaps some ominous foreshadowing haha.
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Unfortunately I can't check. I went to look at my DVR and it looks like the first episode or two of this season was swapped out because of the 5-episode-maximum per series option. Anyone know where I can find them?
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Originally Posted by mrfurious76
Didn't she ask to go with Rick, Lori and Carl to the Grand Canyon in like episode 1 of this season? And the response was basically "of course sweetie, we'd never go anywhere without you". Perhaps some ominous foreshadowing haha.
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I'd agree with that were she an adult. Lost little girl = people care. Check the news media anytime a little girl goes missing....especially cute little white girls.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Perhaps I'm not expressing myself in a manner to properly convey my line of thinking so I'll just lay it out like this:
Sophia talking = Sophia's personality taking shape = Characters forming relationship with Sophia = Audience forming relationship with Sophia = Audience caring about her fate It seems like the writers just glossed over nearly all of it and took the last part for granted. They didn't even bother to swap out her dialogue for any meaningful moments with her. It's lazy writing. |
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To me it applies so long as the character is old enough to have developed a personality. They shouldn't take it for granted. It's why I didn't really care when Jaqui or Sophia died and why I doubt I'll care when T-Dog dies.
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Originally Posted by Furio
I'd agree with that were she an adult. Lost little girl = people care. Check the news media anytime a little girl goes missing....especially cute little white girls.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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Agreed, T-Dog said like 3 words last episode. One criticism I have is that some characters get so much to work with while others are barely touched (daryll VS T-Dog for example). I figured he would have been killed off along time ago along the lines of the old school, unwritten movie rules of black guys in movies dying first.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
To me it applies so long as the character is old enough to have developed a personality. They shouldn't take it for granted. It's why I didn't really care when Jaqui or Sophia died and why I doubt I'll care when T-Dog dies.
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I think it would pretty funny if they keep him alive for a really, really long time without ever developing his character for just that reason.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Agreed, T-Dog said like 3 words last episode. One criticism I have is that some characters get so much to work with while others are barely touched (daryll VS T-Dog for example). I figured he would have been killed off along time ago along the lines of the old school, unwritten movie rules of black guys in movies dying first.
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your = Belonging to you.
you're = Contraction meaning "You are."
Ur = The name of an ancient Mesopotamian city.
ur = This is not a word.
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It would be better if he referenced that trend at some point and then never spoke again, but still showed up every episode.
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I think it would pretty funny if they keep him alive for a really, really long time without ever developing his character for just that reason.
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lol x2
This is all fun and stuff, but can we PLEASE get back to Sophia being a def mute and looking for other poor story development/lazy writing techniques? 
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"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
I would think based on how much of a P.O.S. the husband was in the TV show it would have been painfully obvious to all the other characters (and should have it to the audience as well) that Sophia was in a sad family situation to begin with. I don't think it would have been a shock to anyone to understand (especially in light of the ZA) why she would likely be fairly unresponsive and extremely introverted toward nearly everyone. It's also completely understandable why such a girl might be more willing to be open with another child like Carl because like her Carl is not an "evil adult" so she could more easily relate to Carl than any other adult in that situation.
I understand (based on some of the things you've written) that you might be upset that the Sophia character was significantly changed when they ported her from the comic book to the TV show. But just because you don't like what happened to her does not mean that they did not adequately establish the background of the TV version of the character on the TV show.
You've got to remember that the creators of the TV show (which include's Kirkman) has firmly established that the comic book is -not- canon for the TV show. Again I can understand liking one version of a character more than another, but there was absolutly no reason why TV Sophia had to be anything like comic book Sophia. To be honest the TV version of Sophia seemed far more realistic to me than the comic book version because based on everything that's happened to the character it made a lot more sense for her to have been withdrawn and untalkative than to be almost blissfully flirty with Carl like she was.
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