Going to break off a little tangent here. (But I loved the episode)
So Sunday nights are getting to be my cluttered night of TV watching: The Walking Dead, Dexter, OUAT, Homeland, Boardwalk Empire etc etc etc. Dexter and Walking Dead are both on at the same time (8 CST). I DVR the Walking Dead because it has commercials and Dexter doesn't, so I can just fastforward through them and don't have to worry about breaks during Dexter. I watch Dexter live, then just kind of flip around channels after because I'm about to log into CoH for an hour or so and I'll watch the Walking Dead later (around 11 CST). My phone is on the end table, so I decide to check (around 9:15) and see what's going on with Facebook. Then I see this post from someone I don't even really remember from like junior high or something: "OMG the Walking Dead fans....Sophia was in the barn!!!!" One line, too short to avert my eyes before I read something spoilery. ARG!!!
Uh yeah, totally spoiled it for me. The episode was still powerful, but lacked the punch because I was waiting for it to happen. Don't know if I would have been shocked or not. I'll never know. So thank you, to whoever you are from junior high for @!%#$ing up my evening.
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1) I think its a case of digging under the surface a little to figure out why good ol god fearing Herschel wants the group to leave the farm; everyone may have their own take on it. Before the group came, Herschels world/faith had been rocked severely, but had started to settle down to a "normalcy". They were farming and doing all the things farm people do being in a secluded location. Basically what I said in an earlier post, realists VS theorists...Herschel is very much the theory/creative driven personality type.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think the problem both the comic and TV show has had is that neither of them has really given us a clear-cut LOGICAL reason why Hershel wanted Rick's group to leave other than he just arbitrarily wanted them to. Yes it's his farm and he can make the rules, but still after Rick made the obvious good case that the two groups could work together better than apart Hershel still couldn't come up with a good counter-argument to that.
I think we're just suppose to believe that Hershel's full commitment to his delusional idea that "zombies are people too" is suppose to adequately explain every motivation he has as a character and it's just hard, as the audience, to buy that point of view. *shrugs* The "magic" of Hollywood makes many shorter guys look taller on screen. Tom Cruise is the classic example of that.  |
The group brought with them:
- a realistic focus point of what was happening outside the farm
- a challenge to the common thought that if they just minded their own business, they could live day to day and get by
- a challenge to the farm's concept that zombies were sick people that needed to be cared for until a cure was magically found
- reasons for his "lil girl" to grow up and be interested in some of the studs that arrived
- a drain on resources?
- basically the group would "infect" the farmers with their crazy, real ways
2) yeah, I forgot ...Tom Cruise is a little cutie pie shorty short
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lol |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
So thank you, to whoever you are from junior high for @!%#$ing up my evening.
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Im sorry but I dont get all the Shane hate. Yes he is clearly a little unhinged at this point, but the guy has had it really really rough. This isnt the same world they lived in, that point has been made clear. He is adapting in order to not only preserve his own life but the lives of those around him. Should he have capped Ottis? Well no hes a person, but lets face it, he was going to outrun him anyway and the rule is "I dont have to outrun them, I just have to outrun YOU!".
The fact is that without Shane, Ricks family would be dead more than once. Actually alot of people would be. Every group has this guy. Can you honestly tell me that out of your group of friends that you dont, at this very second have a guy figured out that would pretty quickly become your groups Shane. LOL my little brother is mine. Before Ottis even went down my phone rang I picked up and my bros voice said "Whats he waiting for, just drop the fat guy."
Then bang lol. I think they are playing this perfectly, the Shane vs Rick dynamic is wonderful. They clearly love each other, but are going to have to come to terms with how different they have become, and well.......... lets not forget the whole "baby" issue.
This show is a masterpiece.
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I'm finding the way the TV show has handled how Rick and Shane view the idea of "leadership" to be very interesting. It's not just a simple question of one being totally right and the other being totally wrong - both men are struggling with the grey area of morality versus the primal caveman instinct for survival.|
Originally Posted by Psynder13
Im sorry but I dont get all the Shane hate. Yes he is clearly a little unhinged at this point, but the guy has had it really really rough. This isnt the same world they lived in, that point has been made clear. He is adapting in order to not only preserve his own life but the lives of those around him. Should he have capped Ottis? Well no hes a person, but lets face it, he was going to outrun him anyway and the rule is "I dont have to outrun them, I just have to outrun YOU!".
The fact is that without Shane, Ricks family would be dead more than once. Actually alot of people would be. Every group has this guy. Can you honestly tell me that out of your group of friends that you dont, at this very second have a guy figured out that would pretty quickly become your groups Shane. LOL my little brother is mine. Before Ottis even went down my phone rang I picked up and my bros voice said "Whats he waiting for, just drop the fat guy." Then bang lol. I think they are playing this perfectly, the Shane vs Rick dynamic is wonderful. They clearly love each other, but are going to have to come to terms with how different they have become, and well.......... lets not forget the whole "baby" issue. This show is a masterpiece. |
In a very real sense both of them are the two sides of the same coin. Shane has been kind of the "dark" version of Rick all along. It's almost like that classic Star Trek episode where Kirk was literally split into two separate men by the transporter beam, one having the "good" qualities of Kirk and the other having the "evil" qualities.
Obviously there's no 23th century technology involved in the Walking Dead, but it'll be cool to see how they deal with each other's opposing views. Obviously the whole "Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere" styled love triangle will generate on-going drama as well.
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Exactly, I see them using Shane as a foil for Rick's transition/internal struggles in the written material.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm finding the way the TV show has handled how Rick and Shane view the idea of "leadership" to be very interesting. It's not just a simple question of one being totally right and the other being totally wrong - both men are struggling with the grey area of morality versus the primal caveman instinct for survival.
In a very real sense both of them are the two sides of the same coin. Shane has been kind of the "dark" version of Rick all along. It's almost like that classic Star Trek episode where Kirk was literally split into two separate men by the transporter beam, one having the "good" qualities of Kirk and the other having the "evil" qualities. |
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They even literally had that talk in the woods a few episodes ago where Rick admitted that he "vicariously lived" through all of Shane's dates and shenanigans he had during high school. It's as if Shane represents everything Rick would do if he didn't have a strongly developed sense of morality and honor. As you imply Shane is indirectly serving as the TV version of Rick's comicbook thought-bubbles. |
Originally Posted by Chyll
Exactly, I see them using Shane as a foil for Rick's transition/internal struggles in the written material.
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Who knows? Maybe he did some bad stuff in his past. Or perhaps he's never had the chance to connect with someone who wasn't Merle and this is (was) his opportunity. Or he sees a bit of his abandonment issues in Sophia and didn't want her to end up like him.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
What does Darryl need to atone for?
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I guess we could learn that Daryl was a genuinely bad guy who's trying to make amends.|
Originally Posted by Dark One
Who knows? Maybe he did some bad stuff in his past. Or perhaps he's never had the chance to connect with someone who wasn't Merle and this is (was) his opportunity. Or he sees a bit of his abandonment issues in Sophia and didn't want her to end up like him.
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But it really seems more like he might have just been under Merle's thumb and maybe never had a chance (pre-ZA) to make his own decisions or be his own man. Sure the circumstances for the rest of the world are pretty bad in light of the zombies. But in Daryl's case it's probably been a good chance for him to start over and make a name for himself that has nothing to do with being someone's little brother.
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I would say that he needs to atone for being a racist redneck who probably beat woman in the past, he is trying to be a better person, he was like his brother now that he sees that it was wrong to act that way he is trying to change.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
As much of an ahole Shane may be in the new world, hes been right more times than not (as someone said) and if he hadnt gone off the deep end, the group may possibly never found Sophia.
What does Darryl need to atone for? |
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Not genuinely bad, just a guy who made some bad choices. Someone who thought he might never get the chance to make up for it and was destined to walk a bad path. He now has the opportunity to become the person he might've wanted to be, rather than the person he was.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I guess we could learn that Daryl was a genuinely bad guy who's trying to make amends.
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He strikes me as someone who had a sense of honor, but was forced by circumstances to become a person he didn't truly want to be.
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I didn't really find it to be powerful so much as forced. That zombie Sophia would wait until all of the other zombies came out first made everything the writers were trying to do too obvious, which didn't help on top of the lingering stupidity of Shane ranting about how dangerous all the zombies in the barn are and then busting the place open right in front of everyone.
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune
I dunno, that ending to the Sophia arc was pretty damn powerful. I applaud them for that. Although, I knew it was coming from the spoilers I happened upon in the beginning of the week. It was definitely worth watching.
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Like I said if it's revealed in the show that Daryl was willingly just as much of a "racist misogynistic redneck" as Merle was then yes I can agree with the whole idea that he's trying to "atone" for his past sins. But so far the evidence we've seen (like Dark One just implied) points more towards someone who at best "played along" with his brother to make him happy but perhaps never felt those negative ideas as his own. He's never had a problem with T-Dog and even risked himself to save T-Dog back at the beginning of the season.|
Originally Posted by 2short2care
I would say that he needs to atone for being a racist redneck who probably beat woman in the past, he is trying to be a better person, he was like his brother now that he sees that it was wrong to act that way he is trying to change.
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I think the whole point of Daryl as a character was to be the "misunderstood redneck". You look at him once and you automatically ASSUME he's -just- a racist redneck like his brother was but what we've seen throughout this season is that Daryl on his own is much more sophisticated in his own way than that.
I suspect that's part of why he's become such a fan-favorite amongst the audience of this show.
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The thing is, though, it doesn't seem like they sat down and recognized which elements from the comic needed to be preserved so they could put their own spin on them. For example, with Shane they're essentially taking the survivalist elements out of Rick's character and putting them into Shane just so down the road someone (probably Lori) will pull out the "You sound just like Shane" line. It's simply too obvious. That's just one example of them forcing the drama instead of letting it happen.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
I agree to a point, Cap. I accept that the TV and comic stories will deviate. But the deviations now are drifting into completely different story land. Shane's continued survival is the fulcrum. Last night makes sense with him there, it fits nicely and was indeed quite powerful. However, his being alive has driven significant change. And now Sophia is dead which is going to have an impact on Carl certainly, and they aren't leaving the farm on schedule. And frankly, as powerful as last night's conclusion was, the actual cracking of Herschel and comic's conclusion was no less powerful....
However, the show continues to add some great stuff. There is value in the story as they are portraying it. It just isn't the same story. |
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I'll still watch in the hopes it gets better. There were some good elements in the episode prior to this one but the strength of it was still rooted in what they drew from the comics. I hope they can get the blend right with the second half of this season. But if they end up introducing Michonne and screwing up her character that'll likely be the last straw.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
Different strokes for different folks...Im still enjoying the show. I guess you wont be commenting in this post when the show picks back up in Feb since you're not liking it?
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Again, it's not so much that they're deviating; it's that the changes haven't been good. True Blood did make some nice changes and improved on the source material. Also, being an extremely close translation doesn't necessarily hurt since there are still things they can do in television and movies that they can't do with novels and graphic novels. This is evidenced in 300 and Sin City.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I've now read enough of The Walking Dead comic to see the major differences between it and the TV show.
So far I don't have a problem with it because I'm liking both for different reasons. Yes you can rightly say the TV show is "based" on the comic but the two stories are clearly becoming their own stand-alone retellings of the same overall story. A recent big example of this kind of thing working really well is HBO's True Blood which is based on the Charlaine Harris' Sookie Stackhouse novels. After four seasons of TV shows the TV "version" of that story is now very different from the original novel version. But it works because even though they are different they both have strengths and weaknesses that complement each other. In fact in interviews Charlaine Harris has mentioned that she likes all the new things the HBO TV show has done because it makes the story a surprise even to her. I don't have any problem that The Walking Dead TV show and comic are starting to diverge more and more. I'm already finding things about both versions that I like better than the way the other version handled things. And besides if by some miracle the TV show was able to be an exact clone of the comic then anyone who's read the comic would be completely bored because there would be nothing new to see. |
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I'll grant you that Sophia coming outside as the last lone zombie so they could all make sure to pay extra close attention to her was a little bit "staged" as far as the writing of the show went. It might have been interesting if she just charged out during the general frenzy of the breakout and things were so chaotic that they didn't even realize she was among them until the end.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I didn't really find it to be powerful so much as forced. That zombie Sophia would wait until all of the other zombies came out first made everything the writers were trying to do too obvious, which didn't help on top of the lingering stupidity of Shane ranting about how dangerous all the zombies in the barn are and then busting the place open right in front of everyone.
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But still she served as the lightning rod to provide clear laser-like focus to all the arguing and bickering all the people we going on about whether it was the question of whether "zombies are people too" or whether they should stay or leave the farm. None of that mattered anymore when they were faced with the stark unavoidable reality of the ZA embodied in that one little girl. She served as a turning point in the story, the point when any vague hope that there would be any chance that things would ever "get back to normal" were finally crushed.
That's what made the moment so powerful -despite- the slightly ham-fisted writing.
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In the comics it was a matter of resources. That was one of the reasons. Hershel told Rick there wouldn't be enough food for all of them for an extended period of time, and in the comic there were more people in Hershel's group and either the a fewer or the same amount in Rick's. Then there was the Glenn-Maggie relationship that was sprung on him a bit more immediately. Also, the logic of his argument did start to slip away once the barn zombies were unleashed and he lost more children, but with many of Rick's group being parents I don't think they were in the mood to tell a grieving father where to shove his eviction notice.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I think the problem both the comic and TV show has had is that neither of them has really given us a clear-cut LOGICAL reason why Hershel wanted Rick's group to leave other than he just arbitrarily wanted them to. Yes it's his farm and he can make the rules, but still after Rick made the obvious good case that the two groups could work together better than apart Hershel still couldn't come up with a good counter-argument to that.
I think we're just suppose to believe that Hershel's full commitment to his delusional idea that "zombies are people too" is suppose to adequately explain every motivation he has as a character and it's just hard, as the audience, to buy that point of view. *shrugs* |
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I would be more worried about these kinds of concerns if the guys behind the comic had absolutely no involvement with the TV show. But because people like Robert Kirkman are involved at least to some degree and they have already plainly stated that the comic will -not- serve as strict canon to the TV show it's hard for me to really be that upset with the deviations.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
The thing is, though, it doesn't seem like they sat down and recognized which elements from the comic needed to be preserved so they could put their own spin on them. For example, with Shane they're essentially taking the survivalist elements out of Rick's character and putting them into Shane just so down the road someone (probably Lori) will pull out the "You sound just like Shane" line. It's simply too obvious. That's just one example of them forcing the drama instead of letting it happen.
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I understand not liking the direction the TV show is heading in. But as far as an "TV adaptation" goes we really aren't ever going to get anything closer. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I didn't really find it to be powerful so much as forced. That zombie Sophia would wait until all of the other zombies came out first made everything the writers were trying to do too obvious, which didn't help on top of the lingering stupidity of Shane ranting about how dangerous all the zombies in the barn are and then busting the place open right in front of everyone.
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Her being last out is to be expected. She's the smallest one, not likely to be able to push her way to the front when Shane's stars making all that noise opening the door. The pause before her showing up is obvious dramatic effect, though.
The only way the barn zombies are dangerous is if they mange to escape when no one's watching. Breaking the barn open in front of all those armed people is probably the 2nd safest way to deal with them, but the *best* way of dealing with them while making his point to Hershel. Them limping out in broad daylight from only one possible direction, like Black Friday shoppers at Wal-Mart in front of a literal firing line....they posed as much threat as fish in a barrel.
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But to that I would say it was unnecessary with essentially everyone in Rick's group already in agreement that these weren't people anymore. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I'll grant you that Sophia coming outside as the last lone zombie so they could all make sure to pay extra close attention to her was a little bit "staged" as far as the writing of the show went. It might have been interesting if she just charged out during the general frenzy of the breakout and things were so chaotic that they didn't even realize she was among them until the end.
But still she served as the lightning rod to provide clear laser-like focus to all the arguing and bickering all the people we going on about whether it was the question of whether "zombies are people too" or whether they should stay or leave the farm. None of that mattered anymore when they were faced with the stark unavoidable reality of the ZA embodied in that one little girl. She served as a turning point in the story, the point when any vague hope that there would be any chance that things would ever "get back to normal" were finally crushed. That's what made the moment so powerful -despite- the slightly ham-fisted writing. |
I don't think that Sophia being a zombie really affected that argument; it was more of the shock of a mother seeing her lost daughter that would've developed with any outcome. Hell, my sister always tells me that if I were to try to shoot my nephew in the zombie apocalypse after he'd been turned, she'd kill me. >.>
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I'm pretty sure TV Hershel has also vaguely mentioned some excuse along the lines of "not enough resources" but that was as weak a point as it was in the comics considering they've got a huge farm with which to grow food and they could always scavenge for supplies in the nearby towns.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
In the comics it was a matter of resources. That was one of the reasons. Hershel told Rick there wouldn't be enough food for all of them for an extended period of time, and in the comic there were more people in Hershel's group and either the a fewer or the same amount in Rick's. Then there was the Glenn-Maggie relationship that was sprung on him a bit more immediately. Also, the logic of his argument did start to slip away once the barn zombies were unleashed and he lost more children, but with many of Rick's group being parents I don't think they were in the mood to tell a grieving father where to shove his eviction notice.
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Basically my main problem with the comic is that many of the "critical dramatic points" are sped through with just a few pages or even just a few panels to cover them. While it's certainly true the comic has managed to present more "story" than the TV show has it conversely doesn't really adequately cover most of it. Compared to the TV show it's just a blinding blur of story points with very little depth.
I could entertain the idea the the TV show has the opposite problem: it sticks to relatively few plot points and cover them far too much. But this is why I like both formats so far because they each have a different focus on the story that makes up for the other's weaknesses.
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Her coming out last seemed all the more forced since we've seen the inside of the barn several times already. Glenn's actually been in there and apparently Shane and undoubtedly several others hovered around and peeked in the barn since they found out about it. If they wanted to go that route, I think it would've been a better decision to keep the barn zombies unseen until that scene. |
Originally Posted by Furio
Her being last out is to be expected. She's the smallest one, not likely to be able to push her way to the front when Shane's stars making all that noise opening the door. The pause before her showing up is obvious dramatic effect, though.
The only way the barn zombies are dangerous is if they mange to escape when no one's watching. Breaking the barn open in front of all those armed people is probably the 2nd safest way to deal with them, but the *best* way of dealing with them while making his point to Hershel. Them limping out in broad daylight from only one possible direction, like Black Friday shoppers at Wal-Mart in front of a literal firing line....they posed as much threat as fish in a barrel. |
It was still an unnecessary risk, and it didn't even come with consequences, which takes some of the edge away from the zombies and the world they live in now.
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The pacing is quicker without a doubt, but then you have to factor in your reading speed and how much you're taking in the dialogue in addition to the artwork. A comic can be read in no time at all. A lot of the pacing depends on the reader. However, in the comics they condense certain subjects better than they're doing in the show now. They certainly cut the balls off the confrontation between Rick and Hershel about them leaving in the show.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm pretty sure TV Hershel has also vaguely mentioned some excuse along the lines of "not enough resources" but that was as weak a point as it was in the comics considering they've got a huge farm with which to grow food and they could always scavenge for supplies in the nearby towns.
Basically my main problem with the comic is that many of the "critical dramatic points" are sped through with just a few pages or even just a few panels to cover them. While it's certainly true the comic has managed to present more "story" than the TV show has it conversely doesn't really adequately cover most of it. Compared to the TV show it's just a blinding blur of story points with very little depth. I could entertain the idea the the TV show has the opposite problem: it sticks to relatively few plot points and cover them far too much. But this is why I like both formats so far because they each have a different focus on the story that makes up for the other's weaknesses. |
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I think we're just suppose to believe that Hershel's full commitment to his delusional idea that "zombies are people too" is suppose to adequately explain every motivation he has as a character and it's just hard, as the audience, to buy that point of view. *shrugs*
Tom Cruise is the classic example of that.
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