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Here are my Graphics Settings:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Like I've been saying since pre-beta? I'll take a screenshot of my GFX settings and I know that Arbiter Oates has a copy of my DirectX report handy.
I frequently can't see the following in Keyes:
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I challenge people to figure out where the Obliteration beam is firing in the following picture:
If you guessed nearly center, you would be correct.
Finding a "Flee or Die" graphics effect shouldn't be a case of "Where's Waldo?"
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Are we voting here?
If so, I vote for 3-d death column that extends above and below target. Maybe a nice bright red targeting column.
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Actually, I'm not sure what you mean by "nearly center" but the center of the oblit in that image is actually right of center and low: the person standing just below the three 10s is actually standing almost at the center of the oblit patch. Perhaps I'm not a good example, but my eyes key off of some key elements of the oblit patch which I noticed when we were running master runs initially:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I challenge people to figure out where the Obliteration beam is firing in the following picture:
... If you guessed nearly center, you would be correct. Finding a "Flee or Die" graphics effect shouldn't be a case of "Where's Waldo?" |
I've highlighted some features on your cap: the double concentric circles and a line characteristic of the crosshair in the middle, and the outer edge of the oblit patch:
These features are easier to observe unobscured. I have a couple pics of the same patch at different moments firing and just after firing (which looks like just before firing) that are fairly unobscured:
Just after firing = just before firing. Note the crosshair and the hazy edge of the patch itself:
Firing. Firing obscures the ordinarily more prominent crosshair, but of course if its firing its too late anyway:
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Center of the battle. The original picture actually extends 1/3 more to the right. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, I'm not sure what you mean by "nearly center"
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
but the center of the oblit in that image is actually right of center and low: the person standing just below the three 10s is actually standing almost at the center of the oblit patch.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Perhaps I'm not a good example, but my eyes key off of some key elements of the oblit patch which I noticed when we were running master runs initially: I've highlighted some features on your cap: the double concentric circles and a line characteristic of the crosshair in the middle, and the outer edge of the oblit patch:
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- Is a still image.
- It isn't competing with other animations as much as in game.
- You have more than a second to process the image as you aren't in mid-combat.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
These features are easier to observe unobscured.
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Like I said, I might not be a good example. I spotted the appropriate details instantly because I know what to look for, and I can do it dynamically under higher density conditions than that. I'm just pointing out what they are for the benefit of those that don't have as much experience observing them as we do.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The thing is that picture:
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The question isn't whether its easy or hard to spot the patch, but rather how hard is too hard. I tend to be very conservative when it comes to that sort of thing because I know that what I can process visually in real time isn't representative of the median person. That's why I think it should be made somewhat easier regardless of whether I can spot it or not.
However, there are two aspects to this issue and one of them is, given the current way the system works, what are the elements of it that should not be as problematic as they are, that the devs should fix. The other is, given how it is now, what advice could be given to players to assist them in the meantime.
Thinking back to when I was first running Keyes and learning to avoid these patches, one strategy I employed before getting more practice was to realize that the goal wasn't to avoid the patch, it was to go where the patch wasn't. Too many people, I think, are paralyzed by an inability to locate the patch fast enough. But you do not need to locate the patch to avoid it. Rather, you only need to locate a spot of ground where its *not*.
So the strategy I used in the early going was to zoom out when the timer approached the next Oblit, and locate an open spot of ground that was not obscured by players, effects, anything. When the timer ran to zero, I only had to make one decision:
A. I see Obliteration, I run in the opposite direction.
B. I don't see Obliteration, I run to daylight (the spot I mention above).
This guarantees you are always moving towards a spot Obliteration is not. It does not guarantee you are always moving in the opposite direction from where Obliteration is, but that's not the objective.
Either way, unless you are absolutely dead certain you are not in the patch (and the only way I'm certain is if I see it far away), you move. You assume you're in it, and you move to somewhere its definitely not. No amount of players, special effects, or ground effects can prevent you from doing that.
Instinctively, players don't want to disengage and run unless they are certain they have to. But if you move only when you think you have to, instead of running unless you're certain you don't, mistakes happen.
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Wow, no kidding. This is pretty much my experiance. I have read about this trial in the forums. I thought because of what I read that I understood. Boy I had no idea. The raid leader was saying what to do, and I did my best to follow, even so I still had very little idea what was going on. This is the only trial, tf, or whatever in this game that I didn't "get". |
Originally Posted by Psychoti
For me, I have zero clue what is going on in that trial. I've run it twice now, and doubt I'll ever do it again. The flashy text pops up and I'm like? What? What does that mean? In the first stages when you're picking up blinkies and trying to use the powers on the terminals I would get the message that Warworks were nearby when there were NONE nearby, which was confusing. The whole trial seemed like a massive clusterpancake and at the end people congratulated each other on a smooth run.
...no thank you. |
I've only run this once, and did not get hit by the beam. As I said I read about this before the run. So I knew that the beam was a bad thing. When ever I saw the warning I would just run from the fight. I was playing a scrapper, so running away made it feel like I wasn't really contributing. I never did see a green cross hair on the ground. With all the player's effects and what not it was pretty impossible to pick out just one thing like that. So I ended up running a lot. By the time he was down I felt like I had hit him just 3 or 4 times.
This was the only event like this I've played in the game that at the end I just felt like a confused spectator.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Originally Posted by Draugadan
Wow, no kidding. This is pretty much my experiance. I have read about this trial in the forums. I thought because of what I read that I understood. Boy I had no idea. The raid leader was saying what to do, and I did my best to follow, even so I still had very little idea what was going on. This is the only trial, tf, or whatever in this game that I didn't "get".
I've only run this once, and did not get hit by the beam. As I said I read about this before the run. So I knew that the beam was a bad thing. When ever I saw the warning I would just run from the fight. I was playing a scrapper, so running away made it feel like I wasn't really contributing. I never did see a green cross hair on the ground. With all the player's effects and what not it was pretty impossible to pick out just one thing like that. So I ended up running a lot. By the time he was down I felt like I had hit him just 3 or 4 times. This was the only event like this I've played in the game that at the end I just felt like a confused spectator. |
If I may, may I suggest not giving up on the trial.
The first time at anything can be confusing and I get that trust me I do. When I first did the Keyes trial back in beta I was just as confused and had no idea where what was and what to do (when everyone else had already ran the Keyes trial at least once; if not everyone, most).
Heck, *grandpa voice*
"back in my day we didn't have the little 'neighbordhood dots' to see which reactor was named what and where the bunkers were, etc... now you kids have those things and still complain!" */end grandpa voice*
But seriously, I implore you (and others) to try to get in on another Keyes or two...that way you get more of a feel for it.
If you don't like it or whatever well....that stinks (for people like me who are up for it but can't find others to do it heh)
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Honestly, I find this a pretty easy trial. It's the badges that are hard.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Best way to avoid beam - not playing Keys at all 
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I agree. Personally, I don't see it as too difficult [just the 'herding cats' aspect], but then again, I play other MMOs which have a higher bar for required coordination and a more strict balance field.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
If you don't like it or whatever well....that stinks (for people like me who are up for it but can't find others to do it heh)
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However, I will say I've stopped trying to run Keyes. For a few reasons really. I don't like the Big Star. I really don't, I've done it before with Keyes, but I really don't like organizing. I am just exhausted with hear people complain about having to run Keyes and watching the cats fail to be herded.
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It may be easy in that its hard to fail (I've failed more BAFs than Keyes (2 BAFs vs 0 Keyes - one was because of the escape phase, the other we ran out of time trying for Gotta Keep 'Em Separated), but it's extremely frustrating because of that damned pulse if you lack a self heal - on my Blaster a single pulse cannot be countered by 2 greens since I have +HP Accolades, and that means the Vickies can OHKO me. Which they do since I can't hide because my stealth proc doesn't work - forcing me to burn a respec for a single trial. (Also its incredibly punishing for squishies who dont take an electric armor from their patron/ancillary)
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Honestly, I find this a pretty easy trial. It's the badges that are hard.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
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Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Honestly, I find this a pretty easy trial. It's the badges that are hard.
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Confession: I consider myself fairly good or at least somewhat competent at many aspects of this game, but still have no idea how the reactor phase of Keyes works even after 5 or 6 runs. My gut tells me that if a CoH addict like me doesn't understand what is happening, that at least a quarter of an average pick up league has no idea as well. People give and have written directions, sure, but what any of that means in the context of the actual game is lost on me. I still have never failed this segment because, I assume, a few competent people carry the group.
The green explosion thing is actually the least of my worries. My biggest pet peeve here is the vertical element of the reactors which makes it extremely easy to lose your team on the map once you die and have to run back or even just when the group heads off. I spend almost all my time in this trial disoriented, usually running into at least 5 or 6 other players who are just running around doing nothing like I am. If I have heals or buffs I use those if I can, but in terms of engaging most of the actual trial--no, not really at all. Especially not with the chance of death being sky high due to damage pulses and very dangerous enemies.
I don't know why you say you need to respec. Honestly, it sounds like you're trying to solo the trial instead of relying on your leaguemates. This IS team content after all. No one expects your Blaster to shrug off the pulses or kill three Vickies at once.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
I do think the visual indicators for these and Battle Maiden's patch of doom need to be changed from only being two dimensional. I see what Arcanaville is saying about just moving and being aware, but the two dimensional graphic is an issue, to my mind. There should not be doubt that such a big attack is about to land, whether there is a badge associated with it or not.
Everything else is okay, even the small amount of time you do have to move.
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The stealth procs don't work? Odd: I never noticed that. I stealth around with a stealth proc stacked on superspeed in Keyes all the time and I seemed to be invisible, at least when running into bunkers. If the stealth proc was off and all I had was SS, I think they would spot me at that range.|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
It may be easy in that its hard to fail (I've failed more BAFs than Keyes (2 BAFs vs 0 Keyes - one was because of the escape phase, the other we ran out of time trying for Gotta Keep 'Em Separated), but it's extremely frustrating because of that damned pulse if you lack a self heal - on my Blaster a single pulse cannot be countered by 2 greens since I have +HP Accolades, and that means the Vickies can OHKO me. Which they do since I can't hide because my stealth proc doesn't work - forcing me to burn a respec for a single trial. (Also its incredibly punishing for squishies who dont take an electric armor from their patron/ancillary)
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Its certainly harder for blasters in general, but everything is harder for blasters in general as long as anything is shooting back. Which is actually why blasters tend to like BAF: not as much shooting back, and when it happens its usually when the league is in tight clusters of buffs and heals. But its not impossible for blasters to succeed in Keyes without special builds or powers. My blaster's only self heal is Destiny, and I don't have Electric Armor, and I'm not soft capped to anything, and I do fine.
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I've come out of Keyes with debt - that doesnt happen anywhere other than UGT - and that's if the league is light on mez protection. I also monitor my stealth radius at all times - and the stealth proc wasn't functioning last I tried. The same issue occurs during the final mission of Tin Mage, but there I simply Super Jump rather than Super Speed past the mobs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The stealth procs don't work? Odd: I never noticed that. I stealth around with a stealth proc stacked on superspeed in Keyes all the time and I seemed to be invisible, at least when running into bunkers. If the stealth proc was off and all I had was SS, I think they would spot me at that range.
Its certainly harder for blasters in general, but everything is harder for blasters in general as long as anything is shooting back. Which is actually why blasters tend to like BAF: not as much shooting back, and when it happens its usually when the league is in tight clusters of buffs and heals. But its not impossible for blasters to succeed in Keyes without special builds or powers. My blaster's only self heal is Destiny, and I don't have Electric Armor, and I'm not soft capped to anything, and I do fine. |
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I just came off a successful 'No Green Stuff' run with a close call that had me cringing away from my screen.
Antimatter locked his disintegration effect on me. I called out to the emp, a good friend and someone who I've been grouping with regularly a few years now.
I died before he could heal me out of the Disintegration effect. Immediately, he popped his targeted rez on me.... and was immediately targeted himself by the Orbital Obliteration Cannon cross-hairs. He scampered as soon as the animation would let him and BARELY made it out of the green stuff.
My KO'd body let the rez counter expire and watched as the green column of death slowly faded away, and then went to the hospital.
I wasn't sure it'd work, but after the end of the trial, we did indeed see that we'd successfully made it out of the Green Stuff and earned the badge.
If I'd accepted that rez, which probably 99% of players would have, we'd have lost out on the badge.
My healer friend's suggestion was straight forward afterward. Forbid rezes during the AM fight. If someone dies, make them go to the hospital and walk back so that neither the rezer nor the rezee gets caught off guard in those long animations during the fight.
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During the reactor phase, some stealth abilities are disabled. I monitor my blaster's stealth, and throughout the reactor phase, it's constantly 0 no matter whether I'm running Stealth and/or the Celerity IO in Sprint. For my controller, Steamy Mist works fine.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The stealth procs don't work? Odd: I never noticed that. I stealth around with a stealth proc stacked on superspeed in Keyes all the time and I seemed to be invisible, at least when running into bunkers. If the stealth proc was off and all I had was SS, I think they would spot me at that range.
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I've been told that the pulse messes with stealth, leaving stalker Hide and VEAT abilities alone, but I haven't seen this in any official guide, and the captions are hidden behind my combat monitor/event monitor so I don't know if it's mentioned there.
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As for the original post, in a Keyes run a few hours ago, I got held by Atomic Blast shortly before the beam hit. And no break frees in my tray. And when I asked about the hold after the trial, it took me and one other regular Keyes runner a few minutes to figure out what had happened.
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Positron, I'd like to add one other thing that a LOT of people, including Arcanaville, has brought up on many occasions: if Anti-Matter freezes time, then it should not do any of the following:|
Originally Posted by Positron
All of the "move or die" FX powers should be tagged with a priority on them to make them draw first before any other FX, so those people with lower graphic settings will still see them even if a million other things are going on.
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- Fire/target the Obliteration Beam.
- Fire/target the Disintegration Beam.
- Run the DoT effects of the Disintegration Beam.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I have to say, this thread is worrying to me.
Are all incarnate trial goers going to expect me to know exactly what to do from the start? I mean I read up on the wiki but until I have actually tried this stuff out myself I'm going to be a little hopeless.
I really don't like to think I won't be welcome on incarnate trials just because I don't have experience in them
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The first two are easy enough, the BAF is very easy to pick up and Marauders one is fine (except for the twisty-turny passageway bit in the middle but your team can cover that, I usually spend it dead, dying or return from the hospital). Haven't bothered with the other two, few people seem to, Keyes especially seems to be a confused mess of a Trial and thus is rarely ran.
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Originally Posted by Rapthorne
I have to say, this thread is worrying to me.
Are all incarnate trial goers going to expect me to know exactly what to do from the start? I mean I read up on the wiki but until I have actually tried this stuff out myself I'm going to be a little hopeless. I really don't like to think I won't be welcome on incarnate trials just because I don't have experience in them |
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I can't speak for everybody, but every Keyes/Underground I've joined, the leader has asked if anyone is new to the trial and given a basic rundown if someone said they were. I see it less with BAF and Lambda, but they're less complicated. (I don't think Underground is that complicated, with the possible exception of the final AV, but it's also relatively new.)|
Originally Posted by Rapthorne
I have to say, this thread is worrying to me.
Are all incarnate trial goers going to expect me to know exactly what to do from the start? I mean I read up on the wiki but until I have actually tried this stuff out myself I'm going to be a little hopeless. I really don't like to think I won't be welcome on incarnate trials just because I don't have experience in them |
And when I was new to the trials, I learned to make a point of asking, "I've never done this trial before, so if there's anything I need to know, please tell me." People were more than happy to give me pointers.
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I've sort of avoided doing that |
Originally Posted by Placta
I can't speak for everybody, but every Keyes/Underground I've joined, the leader has asked if anyone is new to the trial and given a basic rundown if someone said they were. I see it less with BAF and Lambda, but they're less complicated. (I don't think Underground is that complicated, with the possible exception of the final AV, but it's also relatively new.)
And when I was new to the trials, I learned to make a point of asking, "I've never done this trial before, so if there's anything I need to know, please tell me." People were more than happy to give me pointers. |
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