Do some heroes rely on their powers too much?
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2011-10-03 17:26 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Nah, just recycled the ToV name on a different server.
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Originally Posted by Matrix_Dragon
Also, you rerolled Jen again I see?
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You can say that about this entire idea. The X-Men are a prime example, as their powers are inherent to them. I mean... compared to other animals, we could be considered super powered in certain ways. Should we stop using our brains and our hands to make things fair to them? That doesn't even make sense.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
That particular case is a little like saying racing drivers are too dependent on their cars to win races.
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True, but it's especially evident when you're dealing with Tech characters.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
You can say that about this entire idea.
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Batman has even told Superman this before....that he doesn't use his powers in unique or different ways, and lacks finesse.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Superman's the most obvious example of this. He's so used to being invulnerable, he almost never bothers to dodge a blow. He just stands there and takes it in the chest. That causes problems when it turns out to be something that can hurt him. You'd think he'd learn.
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There are times when Batman gets Superman's powers, and uses them in ways that Superman would have never thought of.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Currently in the post Mephisto era that is running in the mainstream Spiderman books, Spidey has currently lost his spider-sense and has taken lessons from Shang-Chi and has developed the new super maxed out matrix style martial art called "the way of the spider".
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It's the inner child in me that always wondered how Spider-Man would perform after formal martial arts training. He can already hit hard, and martial arts emphasizes that it's just as important to know where to hit as well. It'll be interesting to see now that he'll be able to do both.
It reminds me of a story idea I had once of Spider-Man disappearing and returning with ninjitsu training.
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William Joseph "Billy" Batson, Mary Willow Batson, and Frederick Christopher "Freddy" Freeman aka Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, and Captain Marvel Jnr (well, the new Captain Marvel) respectively.
Without access to the power granted by Shazam all three are powerless - reverted back to being normal human children/teenagers.
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"Also, I've knocked out Superman, so don't **** with me."
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Originally Posted by Comrade Hero
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I thought Extremis was a big mistake at the time, and nothing has yet happened to convince me otherwise
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Ohhhh..... I agree so much, I hate cybernetic Tony.
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
You know, this topic reminds me of a comic"empowered" by adam warren. the general gist is that the main heroine has powers, but they are really flakey, so you start finding as the series goes on that her real powers is that she treats people well, doesn't prejudge midcard and below villians as worthless and even saves a few of their lives, and in most of her stories wins by thinking in a depowered mindset and jury rigging a solution, even in the rare cases her suit/blatant aesop for self esteem is still together it just serves to amplify her natural resourcefulness and goodness. Its got the most fanservice a story can have without being about a HVAC technician, no question, but i kind of like how it handled the heroes versus people with super powers angle.
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That's... awesome, one of the best ideas I've read in a while, and wish that had come to mind before I made my StJ/SR Brute I just made the other day.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
(I find Torchy confuses other players. They read her bio, which notes that she lost her powers but declined to pack it in, and ask how I did that, as if the fabled powerset respec might have come along while they weren't looking. Then I have to explain that no, there never was a Fire Blast version, the idea is that she was just an obscure sidekick before she lost her powers and came into her own as a Natural MA/WP Scrapper. That's about when the "whatever" and the sidling out of the room comes, but I don't care, I'm having fun with the concept, anyway.
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That's okay though, I really think that's a great idea and, no offense, will use a concept like that at some point while making it my own.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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I dont think he would see much difference. He can already, without training, do things that go beyond most martial arts disiplines. He has the agility, flexibility and strengt to pull out moves way more extreme than any martial arts can, and his spider sense means there is no such a thing as a "non telegraphic" attack that you can use against him.|
Originally Posted by Nightphall
It's the inner child in me that always wondered how Spider-Man would perform after formal martial arts training. He can already hit hard, and martial arts emphasizes that it's just as important to know where to hit as well. It'll be interesting to see now that he'll be able to do both.
It reminds me of a story idea I had once of Spider-Man disappearing and returning with ninjitsu training. |
In some ways you can say he already practices "spider style school of martial arts" :P
Superman is the one I would love to see get into martial arts. He constantly goes toe to toe with the lkes of Dark Seid who would likely be thrown off by some of the refined moves.
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Since you're already mixing universes there, let me pile on to that. In the Hero P&P RPG system, the higher your strength the more it costs to take martial arts skill. Spider-Man would have trouble fitting martial arts into his already power-packed build. There's no way Superman would be able to manage it. Although in the Golden Age there was a martial art from Krypton known as Klurkor, and I think Lois Lane learned it at one point. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
I dont think he would see much difference. He can already, without training, do things that go beyond most martial arts disiplines. He has the agility, flexibility and strengt to pull out moves way more extreme than any martial arts can, and his spider sense means there is no such a thing as a "non telegraphic" attack that you can use against him.
In some ways you can say he already practices "spider style school of martial arts" :P Superman is the one I would love to see get into martial arts. He constantly goes toe to toe with the lkes of Dark Seid who would likely be thrown off by some of the refined moves. |
The best example I know of where a super-strong individual knows martial arts is Black Bolt, of the Inhumans. Yes, he can disintegrate people with his voice. But he doesn't like to do that, and he's been shown to be able to beat people into submission with fancy Inhuman kung fu.
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The Savage Dragon is a hero that already breaks that balance, I guess. The guy is much stronger than Spiderman, has a regeneration factor that beats the crap out of Wolverines, with an imune system that can actually make him imune to things like mind control after being affected once. He also has martial skils that he never trained for, but instead are just in his memory and therefore he can execute them (explained in the Image Aniversary origin story.)
The guy is not only strong enough to brawl it out with The Thing, but also can do a backflip if he noticed some one behind him, land behind that guy, grab him by the head and punch him unconcious or toss him out of the way.
He has managed to survive in one piece encounter with Superman strong foes just due to this level of skills (mind you, he also has had his rear kicked by more rutheless enemies.)
Have not read it in years, but up to what I read, the Erick Larsen manged to walk a thin line where the guy didnt look like a Mary Sue.
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Oh, no worries there. Please do.
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
That's okay though, I really think that's a great idea and, no offense, will use a concept like that at some point while making it my own.
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Wolverine and others with healing factors. The other X-Men usually make it through a fight without becoming maimed or critically injured, but Wolverine with all his years of martial arts training and fighting experience gets torn up all the time where he would die without the healing factor.
I don't guess this is a superpower, but it always bugged me that Peter Parker was gifted enough scientifically to design superstrong webbing capable of holding superpowered bad guys, cars up in the air and many other amazing feats. But other than the web shooters and the spidertrackers, we never really saw him do anything other than put on his spider suit and punch and web bad guys. That's cool and all, but I would have liked to see him with a belt full of gadgets that he invented to go along with his powers.
Someone else mentioned Superman and his invunerablity. Years and years ago he fought Lobo for the first time and Lobo kicked his butt, this was the Legion version of Lobo prior to his super overexposure, with Lobo trash talking him about never learning how to fight the whole time. Later they rectified this a bit with Superman being trained by Mongul of all people to fight but it still seems like a person with super speed might be able to dodge a punch from a super bad guy rather than just taking it on the chin.
@Joshua.
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It seemed to me like they were fixing this lately (pre-cluster **** reboot) since I recall Superman incorporating counters, kicks, and other fighting moves beyond the basic punches, but as for Superman being used to standing there and taking it, they've addressed this in the comics and even in JLU as Superman's reasoning being that he takes a beating because he knows he can and that keeps the baddie's attention on him instead of squishy teammates and bystanders.
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Originally Posted by Forefinger_
Someone else mentioned Superman and his invunerablity. Years and years ago he fought Lobo for the first time and Lobo kicked his butt, this was the Legion version of Lobo prior to his super overexposure, with Lobo trash talking him about never learning how to fight the whole time. Later they rectified this a bit with Superman being trained by Mongul of all people to fight but it still seems like a person with super speed might be able to dodge a punch from a super bad guy rather than just taking it on the chin.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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He has done, many times; it's just that he usually invents something for a specific purpose (generally to beat a bad guy who's just thrashed his spiderass with a trick he needs to counter for the rematch) and then puts it away somewhere, or loses in the course of the fight. His innovations rarely become a standard part of his arsenal, because he likes to travel light - there's not a lot of room in that outfit for gear.|
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I don't guess this is a superpower, but it always bugged me that Peter Parker was gifted enough scientifically to design superstrong webbing capable of holding superpowered bad guys, cars up in the air and many other amazing feats. But other than the web shooters and the spidertrackers, we never really saw him do anything other than put on his spider suit and punch and web bad guys. That's cool and all, but I would have liked to see him with a belt full of gadgets that he invented to go along with his powers.
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(For instance, in Big Time, he develops a whole new costume that can redirect both light and sound around him, which is partly for stealth's sake and partly to counter the Hobgoblin's sonic attack, but then he only uses it for that "mission", as it were. In CoH he'd have gotten it from his contact when he accepted Go and fight the Hobgoblin again, and try not to lose this time.
)
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Ha! He's actually tanking! Awesome. Thor does that in Avengers sometimes, too.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
as for Superman being used to standing there and taking it, they've addressed this in the comics and even in JLU as Superman's reasoning being that he takes a beating because he knows he can and that keeps the baddie's attention on him instead of squishy teammates and bystanders.
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This is more of an issue with writers. As far as character concept and background goes, Wolverine is meant to be deadly and hard to touch. He is a frigging ninja, assassin, and more.|
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
Wolverine and others with healing factors. The other X-Men usually make it through a fight without becoming maimed or critically injured, but Wolverine with all his years of martial arts training and fighting experience gets torn up all the time where he would die without the healing factor.
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However writers feel that because the guy has heavy regeneration factor, they have to either show it in the story (getting him wounded) or use the character to display gory scenes that have little consequence.
Bishop is the same way. He has to get shot for us to see his powers. Wolverine and Bishop always annoyed me because of that. Your told how great a fighter Wolverine is, but the majority of his fights consist of him getting stabbed/shot until his opponent slips up so Wolverine can cut them. Bishop on the other hand is like a magnet for guns/energy blasts. Most heroes go full runs without getting shot, but Bishop gets capped every issue, multiple times.
Way to many alts.
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Blood and guts to sell comics. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
Thi
However writers feel that because the guy has heavy regeneration factor, they have to either show it in the story (getting him wounded) or use the character to display gory scenes that have little consequence. |
Also Wolverine could also be going by the philosophy that every hit and wound he takes is one less attack to his teammates.
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Well there have been some scenes of him using it, such as his final sparring session with Shang Chi, the master of kung fu who helped train him and develop this art, then he again has a sparring match with the current Madame Web. Then comes the current Spider Island garbage that is in the book and Peter and his current girlfriend are confronted by some super villains that are spider powered including the spider sense. They are losing the fight until Peter turns into Neo from the Matrix and unleashes his new "Way of the Spider" upon them. His girlfriend is left speechless and wants to know how he did that, but Peter lamely evades the issue.|
Originally Posted by Nightphall
It's the inner child in me that always wondered how Spider-Man would perform after formal martial arts training. He can already hit hard, and martial arts emphasizes that it's just as important to know where to hit as well. It'll be interesting to see now that he'll be able to do both.
It reminds me of a story idea I had once of Spider-Man disappearing and returning with ninjitsu training. |
Note: Peter is not dressed as Spiderman for this as there are a bunch of spider powered punks running around in versions of all his costumes thanks to the Jackal. So Peter decides to stay out of his costume and claim to one and all that he too just received spider powers. His girlfriend and boss at his job believe that Peter is Spiderman's "Q" as it were and that Peter helps create and develop Spiderman's hardware, and thanks to the psychic blindspot that is in place thanks to the mindwipe of Peter's Unmasking no one can figure out that he is Spidey.
I like that Peter is finally wising up a bit and using his intellect and that he is developing ways to compensate for the current loss of his spider sense, but the whole Unmasking/mindwipe junk.....ugh....
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You implying he is a regen tanker?! |
Originally Posted by Nericus
Blood and guts to sell comics.
Also Wolverine could also be going by the philosophy that every hit and wound he takes is one less attack to his teammates. |
But seriously, they often seem to paint the walls with his blood no matter if he is alone or in team.
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Blood and gore sell comics. If I were writing Wolverine, yeah he'd be getting cut up and banged up at times, but I'd also be depicting a lot more of his combat skills and how he truly is one of the best fighters in the MU. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
You implying he is a regen tanker?!
But seriously, they often seem to paint the walls with his blood no matter if he is alone or in team. |
Strictly speaking I would consider Wolverine's skills to be on par with Shang Chi, the Master of Kung Fu or that of Iron Fist. Note I said "on par" as in equal or near equal, however Wolverine's indestructible skeleton and healing power will tilt the odds back in his favor. Also punching or kicking Wolverine should hurt the attacker given the skeleton he has, and his skeleton and healing power should help resist damage from the iron fist attack.
For me the interesting side is how does an ordinary person deal with superhuman powers. Spider-man is Spider-man because of his powers and sense of responsibility. What would he have become without the powers (most definately not Spider-man as that is tied to his powers), would he become a great scientists and invent stuff and use that to aide people. Would Uncle Ben have lived if Peter hadn't become Spider-man? (was there not a what if story about this???)
I don't mind a story where the hero loses his or her powers, but the journey of how to deal with powers is what makes most of those stories interesting to me. If told correctly of course.