Originally Posted by Durakken
Since when does Hulk punch... last time i heard...he smashes and smashing is not kinetic force...
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Sebastian Shaw (questions)
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
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Since when does Hulk punch... last time i heard...he smashes and smashing is not kinetic force...
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Physics my dear fellow. Kinetic energy is what keeps objects moving. When two objects do indeed collide, say a fist and a face, that energy is released, or rather transferred into the object with the lesser amount of energy. In the case of a punch the high velocity fist transfers its kinetic energy into the relatively stationary face.
Smashing requires quite a significant use of kinetic energy.
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Shaw has limits to how much he can absorb at once. When the White Queen had mind switched with Storm she lost control of the wheather and a powerful lightning strike overloaded and decked Shaw.
So if a strong lightning bolt can deck Shaw I have little doubt that one punch from the Hulk would reduce Shaw to a greasy smear. Sure Shaw will absorb some of the energy but not enough to stop the Hulk. .... ....especially if Hulk were to go Worldbreaker.... |
What about the first time you heard? Y'know, like high school science class.
Physics my dear fellow. Kinetic energy is what keeps objects moving. When two objects do indeed collide, say a fist and a face, that energy is released, or rather transferred into the object with the lesser amount of energy. In the case of a punch the high velocity fist transfers its kinetic energy into the relatively stationary face. Smashing requires quite a significant use of kinetic energy. |
See... the first part of the smash is kinetic, but once the fist of Hulk is on the head of Shaw the force/energy is no longer Kinetic. It's pressure or whatever... also I'm talking comic physics not real physics. Comics don't view energy as kinetic/potential but rather kinetic as being one of several types of working energy. If this wasn't the case Shaw would have a lot of problems with the whole absorbing kinetic energy with things like hearing or seeing... or staying on earth in general.
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Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
The first time, he TOLD the White Queen (in Storm's body) to hit him with a shot of lightning to power him up before a fight. He hadn't been able to fully discharge that energy, however, before the uncontrolled BIG bolt of lightning got him. So he can absorb it, but maybe not as well as kinetic energy.
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The thing is, this was the second time he'd been hit by lightning in that comic.
The first time, he TOLD the White Queen (in Storm's body) to hit him with a shot of lightning to power him up before a fight. He hadn't been able to fully discharge that energy, however, before the uncontrolled BIG bolt of lightning got him. So he can absorb it, but maybe not as well as kinetic energy. |
I concede that my knowledge of this is likely limited.
Especially after having just re-watched "X-Men: First Class", and his absorption of the energy from the nuclear reactor was decidedly not kinetic.
I've always thought of it as a kinetic focused ability with him.
I concede that my knowledge of this is likely limited. Especially after having just re-watched "X-Men: First Class", and his absorption of the energy from the nuclear reactor was decidedly not kinetic. |
Nuclear energy is kinetic energy however comics don't always treat it as such just like sci-fi stories that differentiate between projectile and energy weapons... Most "energy" weapons are projectile weapons
So the real question is what do they believe in "kinetic" and which place you answer "whatever the writer wants" but it's obvious he can only absorb a small portion of what is called kinetic energy otherwise he'd have a lot of problems... either that or he has quite a bit of control of his power...what with him not exploding constantly
In this case, "kinetic" seems to be 'impact' energy. Energy of molecular valences pushing other valences out of the way, as opposed to the energy of an acidic chemical reaction or a submolecular nuclear reaction.
There seems to be a threshold below which he treats the energy normally so he can see and hear. His ability is probably a defensive evolution, so impacts that cannot hurt him he cannot absorb.
Impacts that would normally damage him he absorbs at some rate less than 100%, Say 99% as a guess/example.
So if the Hulk smashed him with 90 tons of of force and he were unprepared, he would experience 1800 pounds/900kg of force all at once and be squished.
However, if the Hulk were to apply gradual pressure, Shaw would get tougher faster than he would take damage, depending on the amount of pressure.
In most situations the Hulk wins, because Shaw cannot get stronger than however hard the Hulk is hitting him, while there is no known limit to how mad the Hulk can get.
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This is why Furio is decidely dumb in face palming. In comics there are different types of energy. In reality there is Kinetic and Potential and everything fits in those two categories which can be summed up as "doing something" and "not doing something"
Nuclear energy is kinetic energy however comics don't always treat it as such just like sci-fi stories that differentiate between projectile and energy weapons... Most "energy" weapons are projectile weapons So the real question is what do they believe in "kinetic" and which place you answer "whatever the writer wants" but it's obvious he can only absorb a small portion of what is called kinetic energy otherwise he'd have a lot of problems... either that or he has quite a bit of control of his power...what with him not exploding constantly |
If someone else wants to waste their time i look forward to seeing it.
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Impacts that would normally damage him he absorbs at some rate less than 100%, Say 99% as a guess/example.
So if the Hulk smashed him with 90 tons of of force and he were unprepared, he would experience 1800 pounds/900kg of force all at once and be squished. However, if the Hulk were to apply gradual pressure, Shaw would get tougher faster than he would take damage, depending on the amount of pressure. In most situations the Hulk wins, because Shaw cannot get stronger than however hard the Hulk is hitting him, while there is no known limit to how mad the Hulk can get. |
No, no he wasn't wrong to post the pic. Even this post is a confused mess of not getting it. It's... wow... there are so many things wrong with it that i'm just going to bow out now. Reminds me of when Dur was telling engineers and mathematicians that they knew less about how a starship should be designed because his total lack of relevant experience made him more smarter or something.
If someone else wants to waste their time i look forward to seeing it. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Which seems to counter the way he is killed in the movie... unless it isn't a defensive toggle and getting mezzed turned it off...
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Going to have to drink my Nerd Continuity Perceptors into unconsciousness first.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Haven't seen the movie.
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Excellent movie, well worth it.
Juggs, Iron Man, Wolvie, Havoc, Dazzler, Cloak, couple others I dont remember...Ms Marvel might have been one...LLOONNGG time ago.
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If I were in that fight, I'd have chosen Professor X. And maybe Rogue.
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This is why Furio is decidely dumb in face palming. In comics there are different types of energy. In reality there is Kinetic and Potential and everything fits in those two categories which can be summed up as "doing something" and "not doing something"
Nuclear energy is kinetic energy however comics don't always treat it as such just like sci-fi stories that differentiate between projectile and energy weapons... Most "energy" weapons are projectile weapons So the real question is what do they believe in "kinetic" and which place you answer "whatever the writer wants" but it's obvious he can only absorb a small portion of what is called kinetic energy otherwise he'd have a lot of problems... either that or he has quite a bit of control of his power...what with him not exploding constantly |
from the wiki entry which is remarkably similar to every physics text i've read.
Forms of energy
Main article: Forms of energy
Heat, a form of energy, is partly potential energy and partly kinetic energy.
In the context of physical sciences, several forms of energy have been defined. These include:
- Thermal energy, thermal energy in transit is called heat
- Chemical energy
- Electrical energy
- Radiant energy, the energy of electromagnetic radiation
- Nuclear energy
These forms of energy may be divided into two main groups; kinetic energy and potential energy. Other familiar types of energy are a varying mix of both potential and kinetic energy.
Energy may be transformed between these forms, some with 100% energy conversion efficiency and others with less. Items that transform between these forms are called transducers.
The above list of the known possible forms of energy is not necessarily complete. Whenever physical scientists discover that a certain phenomenon appears to violate the law of energy conservation, new forms may be added, as is the case with dark energy, a hypothetical form of energy that permeates all of space and tends to increase the rate of expansion of the universe.
Classical mechanics distinguishes between potential energy, which is a function of the position of an object, and kinetic energy, which is a function of its movement. Both position and movement are relative to a frame of reference, which must be specified: this is often (and originally) an arbitrary fixed point on the surface of the Earth, the terrestrial frame of reference. It has been attempted to categorize all forms of energy as either kinetic or potential: this is not incorrect, but neither is it clear that it is a real simplification, as Feynman points out:
These notions of potential and kinetic energy depend on a notion of length scale. For example, one can speak of macroscopic potential and kinetic energy, which do not include thermal potential and kinetic energy. Also what is called chemical potential energy (below) is a macroscopic notion, and closer examination shows that it is really the sum of the potential and kinetic energy on the atomic and subatomic scale. Similar remarks apply to nuclear "potential" energy and most other forms of energy. This dependence on length scale is non-problematic if the various length scales are decoupled, as is often the case ... but confusion can arise when different length scales are coupled, for instance when friction converts macroscopic work into microscopic thermal energy.
In terms of Shaw, he absorbs kinetic energy, but I believe it's implied that the intent there is that it's the kinetic energy of actual matter is what he's best at absorbing, not the subatomic kinetic energy in say a chemical reaction...but the fact that there's some amount of kinetic energy in those other types of is what the writers use to justify the tricks like using a lightning bolt to charge him up. As far as Hulk (or anything else) punching him, a fist impacting imparts kinetic energy. Maybe a bit of heat transfer from friction. "Pressure" is not a type of energy....not even one of your so-called "comic book physics" types...which look to me to be actual real world energy types. Hence, the facepalm before.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Why is it people think they are being smart or clever by posting a wiki article that reiterate long form whatever I said in a really simple to understand colloquial form. None of that is needed for this discussion. It's obvious that there is more to it, but unneeded to talk about.
The comics say kinetic energy. It takes all of 3 seconds to realize that what the comics mean by kinetic and what the real world means is only similar on the surface and any real physics is out the window.
Shaw absorbs a small range of what could be considered kinetic energy, but he obviously doesn't absorb just any kinetic energy or what exactly we mean when we say kinetic energy and thus the question is what does he absorb? and would it be better to call it that rather than simply kinetic.
Why is it people think they are being smart or clever by posting a wiki article that reiterate long form whatever I said in a really simple to understand colloquial form. None of that is needed for this discussion. It's obvious that there is more to it, but unneeded to talk about.
The comics say kinetic energy. It takes all of 3 seconds to realize that what the comics mean by kinetic and what the real world means is only similar on the surface and any real physics is out the window. Shaw absorbs a small range of what could be considered kinetic energy, but he obviously doesn't absorb just any kinetic energy or what exactly we mean when we say kinetic energy and thus the question is what does he absorb? and would it be better to call it that rather than simply kinetic. |
it's not about being smart or clever. It's about defining terms so that everyone is talking about the same thing. Also in this specific case, it's pointing out that the real world does indeed differentiate between the various types of "comic book physics" energies, and that saying there's only potential and kinetic is a gross oversimplification.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Question - if Shaw encountered the Hulk when Shaw was largely unpowered, could the Hulk simply take Shaw by the arms and tear him in half? Or would that too be considered an input of kinetic energy that Shaw would somehow be able to resist/absorb?
P.S.: Only Hayden Christensen can truely defeat Sebastian Shaw.
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Question - if Shaw encountered the Hulk when Shaw was largely unpowered, could the Hulk simply take Shaw by the arms and tear him in half? Or would that too be considered an input of kinetic energy that Shaw would somehow be able to resist/absorb?
P.S.: Only Hayden Christensen can truely defeat Sebastian Shaw. |
I'd say Shaw would likely be in multiple pieces after an encounter with the Hulk, regardless of how powered up he (Shaw) was...but that's more due to limitations on Shaw's particular manifestation of his powers (as opposed to the concept of them...like the difference between Quicksilver's super-speed "really fast" and the Flash's "ludicrous speed!"), and the absurd levels of the Hulk's strength.
AFAIK, Shaw does have an upper limit to how much and how fast he can absorb/process energy...and I'm fairly certain that the Hulk would overtop that pretty easily.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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I'd say Shaw would likely be in multiple pieces after an encounter with the Hulk, regardless of how powered up he (Shaw) was...but that's more due to limitations on Shaw's particular manifestation of his powers (as opposed to the concept of them...like the difference between Quicksilver's super-speed "really fast" and the Flash's "ludicrous speed!"), and the absurd levels of the Hulk's strength.
AFAIK, Shaw does have an upper limit to how much and how fast he can absorb/process energy...and I'm fairly certain that the Hulk would overtop that pretty easily. |
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