Retreading "feminism"

Here are some of my observations:

Since day 1, I've felt CoH takes the "comic" route of portraying many women at first glance. That's to say that the default pose, the proportions, everything about female characters leans heavily towards the overly feminine sex symbol comic women.

Although I can't fault CoH for taking this route, it really leaves little to the player as far as playing outside of that space. That's to say that, no matter what, there are arbitrary confines of what costume options are allowed between Male / Female / Huge models; when your character runs, she'll always run with the butt wiggle; when she walks, she always looks like she's walking down a fashion runway; and although the costume sliders can accentuate your characters breasts and buttocks, there's no option to make her look lean and muscular, like Jillian Michaels for example. Females in CoH are typically about low-cut shirts and skirts, high-heal shoes, and all of those other tropes of comic book ladies, IMPO. At least that's what most of the costume packs imply (Witch female costume options, Barbarian female costume options, etc.).

So yes Sam, I think I'm there with you in your observations. The problem is that, with a comic book genre game, females are shoe-horned into the same role they have in comic books, which is to say strong but extremely sexy. Sure, there are more conservative options, but IMPO, far fewer than the super sexy options like Witch Boots and Hearts Plus patterns.

Interesting thread topic, Samuel. Am surprised to see it here. (We explore subjects here? Who knew!) Movie Bob's "The Big Picture" video on "Gender Games," was great, and I'm embarrassed to say that I hadn't really thought about many of those things beyond the most superficial aspects, most of which can be summed up with me looking at my big, klutz tank character standing in Wentworth's and wondering why she's suddenly taken on these peculiarly ultra-feminine mannerisms.

I don't notice these stances at all when it's on an ultra-feminine character, though. The stance fits then, and blends (to me, anyway) with the costume/body/etc. creating a consistent character.

It would be nice if we could set a default pose or stance for our toons, regardless of gender. Like: aggressive, or angry, or cocky, or quick (or afraid to touch anything for fear of breaking it, in the case of aforementioned tank). We have the option for fly poses, but that needs to be reset each time, so I never bother with it. Ditto costume change emotes. However, these things take the discussion away from feminism, and thus off-topic.

My thought is that the default position for anything is always based on a male model. In the game, and often in real life, too, creating real problems in areas as diverse as proper medication to shoe design. Very often, everything is based on a male model, then scaled down for females. And, as it turns out, this often doesn't work due to the fact that >SURPRISE!< women are different from men, and not just scaled down versions of men.

If this is correct in the game as well, then it seems quite possible that the art department looked at the male stances on female characters and said "you know, real women players are not going to be pleased at being forced into this "manpose," perhaps we should go the extra mile and make a more feminine version?

Which just goes to show that sometimes they just cannot win.

I like the way my Archery/TA defender's bottom wiggles when she runs.

She's head-to-toe in power armour, though, so no flesh on show, even if the armorur is tight-ish.

Eco.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

You know what's great about the new My Little Pony cartoon?

1. There are five main female characters.
2. All of them are different.
3. None of them are presented as the superior way to be a girl.

Why is this unusual?

Also, to address the claim that "it's that way because comics:" Comics don't have to be that way either.

Also, male superheroes in female superhero poses.

Much more along those lines.

A note of clarification. I have zero problem with men and women who want to dress in revealing clothes and behave in a sexually provocative manner. Less than zero, actually - I rather like it. But I also think it's important that men and women have the option of not doing so, and not being thought of as less of a man or woman for choosing not to emphasize their sexual characteristics.

What this means in terms of this game is that I'd like if every costume part was available for every model (yes, all of them - Darkseid needs his manskirt!), and choosing an animation set (heroic, sexy, ponderous) was part of building a costume. It may not be easy, but it's not impossible, and it would be appreciated. I wish I could put a dollar amount on the degree of appreciation.

Come to think of it, wedon't have a 'fat' slider either, do we? We can't make a villain like The Blob for example.

Eco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

The gender norms the game makes mean that I currently have no way of building a male character to my specifications: taking the muscle sliders down just looks odd, whereas real thin men aren't shaped like that (yes, I admit to a certain amount of possible wish-fulfillment there, being lardy.) More unusual perhaps is that there is no way of replicating anything approaching my Real Hairstyle on any of the mald haircuts. They're all far too short, and the ones that are longer than buzzcut are all too thin, it's almost like they think men don't really have hair (and before you ask, the old barbarian hairdo is waaaaaay too short.)

The issue isn't specifically "attitudes to female models need work." It's that the game has taken a very specific snapshot of the things it considers each gender to exhibit in terms of aesthetics (no doubt informed by comic books of a certain era) and seems to e very reluctant to step outside that box.

To everyone criticising the women in this game as being overly sexualised towards women, let me just point out one thing.

You're forgetting the men.

The default male avatars in this game are as much an objectification of masculine notions of male sexuality as the default female avatars are an objectification of feminine notions of female sexuality.

Thus the issue is not one of the art team oversexualising women, but rather oversexualising men & women in accordance with patriarchal values of what men and women should look like.

But tbh...it's completely fine. Especially in a game where people can opt out of this by deviating from the norm. Butch women and feminine men are possible to be made in the costume creator. Plus if you look at the game narrative; the genders are portrayed to be very much equal.

The only time this would ever be an issue is if certain costume options were restricted due to them not being feminine/masculine enough. Limited art time I can understand, but you cannot claim the "opt out" feature is all that valid when the options presented are limited by the very social ideal you are trying to opt out of!

First let me say, that anyone who cares to understand me, will be going a long way in that direction, if they will first believe, that in any given situation I will always be for more choices. That being said, in the quest toward true equality, it would be good if the physique slider for female characters included some actual muscles as opposed to mere thickness. Also, a giant model should be inclued for the women as well. I can't say that I would ever avail myself of such a feature. As I tend to make my female characters all look as much like Kim Kardashian as possible (I view this as a personal failing)

I will say however, (and I speak here from experience) that as a Facebook user who frequents the CoH board there. Contrary to popular perception, actual flesh and blood women, of all races, ages and cultures, are very well represented among the CoH player base. And many of them have opined, that the only thing keeping them from being a more vocal presence both ingame and on the boards, is the presence of what amounts to 'hystericallly immature adolesent males.' and the assorted sorts of chaos that travels in their wake.

My Dad, who turned 82 on September 8th, has over the last 52 years told me many interesting and useful things. Not the least of which is that, 'You're right to do what you wish to do, ends where my nose begins.' That aphorism has become an integeral part of my cosmology.

Although it's been said many times before, consider this. Any game that has been designed primarily by men, primarily for men, will of necessity, contain a few perceptual flaws when it comes to it's depiction of women. These perceptual flaws are not entirely limited to men either. I have run across a few female authors that have a penchant for portraying male characters as either violent or emotionally dense or both violent and emotionally dense. I've even encountered over compensation in the opposite direction. Where one female author with a fairly wide following, would have more than one heterosexual male character burst into tears at the slightest provocation.

I think however, that it bodes well for our wee niche in society, that for the most part, we seem to at least be willing to engage each other in intelligent conversation.

Apart from the walking and running animations, I thought that all the other emotes and animatons were unisex?

Out of respect for Samuel_Tow's previously stated wishes, I will not be quoting Golden Girl. But I do have to ask one question.

GG, have you ever, as a result of discussion with people who disagreed with you, altered your opinions or beliefs about anything?

Aww, Bruthaman, you cracked me up with the Kim K. personal failing! Hahaha!

Well, as I have said before, and will probably say again (not because I'm trying to beat a dead horse, but because I'm getting old and the memory is failing), this is a very female-friendly game. That which we might have complaints about in regards to costumes, or with stances, or stature/weight/etc, make me wonder:

How much of this is our own doing?

Let me explain. A few posts previously, I noted that the "standard model" for all kinds of things, is the male model. This has caused all sorts of problems, not the least of which are medical ones, simply because women are not scaled down men. We all know this. We aren't idiots, we really do know this. So do brilliant minds who are working on life-saving disease cures, medicines, and methodology. We ALL know this! The problem comes into play because we forgot we started with that unspoken premise, that the standard was based on the male. Example, optimal dosages were discovered for some new medicine. Dosages were adjusted by weight. But they forgot that the optimal dosages were correct for a male, and female physiology sometimes caused even fatal reactions, all because they forgot their basic premise: that the standard was based on the male model,

This doesn't make it sexist. Something had to be the standard, it could have as easily been the female, which would have then had unforeseen consequences on the different male anatomy.

The problem becomes that we all have a "standard model" in our own minds, but we forget we have done just that - imposed a standard, against which we judge other things. If I were to say "everyone, create a basic superhero. Quick, roll one up. It must be male, beyond that, whatever you want, you have 3 minutes, GO!"

How many of us make tanks big and hulking guys? But make their empaths female?

Are the differences in some gender-related items (costumes/stances/musculature builds/what have you) caused by the fact that our options are limited, OR this is what the majority of us continue to choose? Do we have it somewhere in our heads that the empath is a sweet, kindly, ministering (female) angel, and that tank is a rough and tough guy, with the heart of gold?

Does the Art Department know what we're buying, and continue to provide us with more of the same, despite a vocal group that says they want more parity?

Are we ourselves creating the very situation we're complaining about?

The men aren't as sexualised as the women because the male models is strong. It's imposing, impressive and highly practical for a fighter. It's a tough guy. The female model isn't strong. It's got large breasts as default and no way of not having a tremendous butt.