Retreading "feminism"
By
akarah the hunter,
Posted on: 2011-09-28 05:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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That was me who suggested that. It was not meant as a joke. The manner that it came out was as a witty quip and clever turn of phrase if I vaguely recall the momentum of the exchanges in the thread correctly. Anyways, I said it there and I'll reiterate here: I've always been a fan of Wretch's unique arms.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Another poster joked about adding "Titanic Arms" to go with Titanic Weapons at my constant suggestion for Robotic Arms getting muscular human arm options, but that's kind of the point - all of these suggestions seem to be interpreted as jokes, or at best as niche appeal.
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Sam, I generally like the ideas you bring to the boards. And you tend to tackle them with the utmost passion. But you need to chill a little. Sometimes you risk alienating people that agree with you.
A wry writing tone doesn't always mean someone is against you.
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| Women appearing masculine, both in costume and mannerism (anyone remember the hatred for the "with weapon" run style for women?) is seen as something weird, unpopular and unnecessary for the most part, and this befuddles me. Men are allowed to cover the full spectrum of characters, right down to practically feminine, yet women representing anything other than femininity is... Niche? |
I also wouldn't mind more "butch" costume options, whether it be Baron coats, new short hairstyles, or tough-grrrl tat sleeves. But even the butch can become sexualized. Witness Vasquez in Aliens. Or ask any visually oriented queer friends you might have. Butch can definitely be sexualized...
Edit: Oh and men are not allowed a full range of options either. It's been how many decades since Rocky Horror and the whole glam fashion? No fishnets for men? Very limited long hair options? It's not just about cross dressing. Context is everything. In the Ocean's films, Bernie Mac's penchant for manicures would have come off as pretentiously metrosexual if given to Brad Pitt's character. But for Bernie's character, this and other cues blurring gender lines, just made him seem tougher and in certain scenes more intimidating.
From willowy gothic male androgyny to linebackers in tutus, shades of male cross dressing can also be put to good use when defining a character's schtick. Yes it all needs to remain T for Teen. But cripes, how many rock stars for the past 40 years have gotten us used to some blurred gender lines when it comes to men? The closest thing we have in this direction is the legacy S&M style male top with skin that has leather straps and nipple rings. And this could arguably be the only male costume item that is as sexually overt as dozens of female options, including a majority of the original tops with skins options.
Most of the costume pieces should be fairly easy to do. Not sure about the walking animations though (that might get into "have to redo every single costume piece in the game to fitwith new animation" territory)
There might be some issue with some skirt/coat pieces precisely because of the animation, but I'm not sure.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Actually, the cigar fits this bill. There have long be associations with smoking and 'sexiness' and 'coolness' (so much so that anti-smoking campaigns have been specificly created to traget this idea). Smoking is a stupid idea in general for a superhero, since it has negativ health effects and smoking in battle is ridiculous, the first time you get punched in the face you could choke on it!|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
If you can point out a male-exclusive item that a man would wear to make himself more attractive, even at the cost of practicality in a highly physically active profession, then I will be quite surprised and may even need to retrieve my monocle.
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The only possible reason to sport one is for poser value.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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You know, initially when I read this I was going to talk about how men don't need to worry about sexualisation, but something happened that led me to believe that sexualisation isn't the problem here. I'm not sure how to describe it, so I'll call it "caricaturisation." As I described before, it's quite possible to objectify characters and sacrifice their personalities for pure looks without this necessarily being sexual in nature. The problem, as I see it, is that men in popular fiction have been turned into caricatures of what a man is supposed to look like.|
Originally Posted by Kjell_NA
The men aren't as sexualised as the women because the male models is strong. It's imposing, impressive and highly practical for a fighter. It's a tough guy. The female model isn't strong. It's got large breasts as default and no way of not having a tremendous butt.
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So what happened to change my mind? A friend of mine was watching trailers for a whole bunch of games, and something struck me about all of them, which I actually said out loud to him: "Why are men always represented with short stubby legs and huge bulbous chests?" And, yeah, why is that? Completely separate from the fact that I HATE this body shape with a passion, that's the body shape of a slow bruiser, more often than not, and not at all the body shape of, say, a free runner or a gymnast. So why are men most often represented as basically weightlifters, to keep that analogy?
The answer to that is "someone clearly likes stubby men," but I suspect it goes deeper than this, into some kind of core belief of what a man is supposed to understand. Sadly, I'm illiterate when it comes to metaphors and hidden meanings, plus I did ask that we don't draw broader conclusion just from very basic examples, but I will say this - if women in this game suffer for being skinny and petite, then men all too often suffer for being chunky and clumsy. In fact, the single biggest complaint about the male model that I've heard over the last seven years, many many times over, is the way they run. And I kind of agree - their running animation is stiff and inelegant, like the guy has serious muscle cramps and is trying to run without actually using most of his joints. It doesn't help that his pelvis never goes up or down.
My point, if there is one, is to suggest that I don't think the problem here is so much "sexism" or the sexualisation of men or women so much as it's the act of turning men and women into caricatures of their true selves, then trying to design a game around that very limited, exaggerated caricature. In this, men suffer as badly as women. Someone upthread mentioned how hard it is to make a male character lighter and skinnier, and I've fallen into this trap, myself. The original Samuel Tow was supposed to be a light, skinny, agile guy who relied on speed and precision with a sword. Trying to do this in-game, however, made him look just malnourished and underdeveloped so I ended up having to give him considerably more muscle mass than I would have liked, just so he wouldn't look like he's at death's door. It didn't help that the guy was and is pale as a dead man.
All of that said, women in games and even in this game still have it considerably worse. Though they sometimes look weird when you do this, you can still make thin men or thick men, tall men or short men, heavy men or light men. Women, on the other hand, really only work within a much smaller range of body shapes and much smaller range of demeanours, and their run style is still drawn up as though they're wearing high heels even when they're not actually wearing high heels, or shoes at all.
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Originally Posted by _eeek_
How many of us make tanks big and hulking guys? But make their empaths female?
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I don't. I don't say this to brag or as an excuse for my porn comic inspired bunny girl (yes, seriously), but more to illustrate a counterpoint to the common perception. For me, when I think of making my "heavy" a big dude and my "support" a tiny girl, a red light flashes in the back of my head and I think: "That's boring! Everyone's doing this, I've seen this a zillion times, so why would I just want to repeat it?" If it's been done, then there's no reason for me to do it, so instead I do completely the reverse. I make my "heavy" a big, tall, imposing woman and my "support" a wimpy but smart guy. This opens up the door to so many cool story opportunities, like...
OK, tangent within a tangent, but whatever
We all know that a lot of men see women as inferior. We don't like it, but it's a fact of life. If a woman tries to make a break in a "man's business," she's looked upon as a weak link and having to, as Ice Road Trucker Lisa Kelly put it, "work twice as hard to prove she's half as good." Well, why not take that situation and introduce a lady who outclasses the dudes at their own game. They're big, but she's bigger. They're strong, but she's stronger. Now just imagine how horrible it must feel for the sexist jackass who thinks that a woman's place is in the kitchen to get grabbed by the neck and slammed into a wall by "a woman" for being such a gigantic jerk?
Oh, sure, it's just as much a wish fulfilment fanfic to a woman who deserves it be treated with respect by the story she's in, and probably doesn't make for a very good plot point when the author is clearly biassed, but look at it from my perspective: How often do you see that in a story? More specifically, how often do you see it played straight and taken seriously? All too often I'll see "tough women" in movies played up as an act, where they fall apart and need A MAN to rescue them when the situation really gets serious, so to see even one female character act like a big damn hero even just once is still amazingly awesome, even if it's motivated by fairly base emotions.
So, yeah, make my "tanks" female more often than not, just because this seems like a more interesting concept to use. Much more so than "yet another tough guy." Hell, I'm waiting for Street Justice specifically so I can give it to that tiny school girl I posted in the OP. Big tough guys doing MMA are the norm, and I'm sure everyone else is already planning one. Me, I like to take the path less travelled, and so make a little girl who can make grown men villains cry for their mommy. You don't see that every day, and to me, that's what makes it awesome
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No, no, I didn't mean to say you took it as a joke. I know that you and a few others agreed with me. I'm saying that people at large see it as a joke just because... Why would you want a woman with muscular arms? Real life women aren't like that, right?|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
That was me who suggested that. It was not meant as a joke. The manner that it came out was as a witty quip and clever turn of phrase if I vaguely recall the momentum of the exchanges in the thread correctly. Anyways, I said it there and I'll reiterate here: I've always been a fan of Wretch's unique arms.
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I didn't mean to insinuate that you made fun of me. I apologise if that's how it came off.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Both the male and female avatars are overly sexualized. That doesn't mean sexually arousing, just overly characterized. To condemn a representation of femininity on the grounds it has small weapons or walks with a tush sway is overlooking the broad definitions the society has placed on that gender. The way this game portrays the physical aspects of femininity are based on the broad characterizations made by the contributing writers/artists of the core genre... Comic Books. I feel this topic cannot be discussed without mentioning what contributes to "sexual identity" in the western world. However, that is taboo here so... This discussion maybe at an impasse.
"You sir, have never been in a hammer fight, that much is clear."
-Blast_Chamber
*yeah, I quoted myself.
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It's all good. Just wanted to be clear that on this particular topic, I'm on your side.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No, no, I didn't mean to say you took it as a joke. I know that you and a few others agreed with me. I'm saying that people at large see it as a joke just because... Why would you want a woman with muscular arms? Real life women aren't like that, right?
I didn't mean to insinuate that you made fun of me. I apologise if that's how it came off. |
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Originally Posted by Blast_Chamber
Both the male and female avatars are overly sexualized. That doesn't mean sexually arousing, just overly characterized. To condemn a representation of femininity on the grounds it has small weapons or walks with a tush sway is overlooking the broad definitions the society has placed on that gender. The way this game portrays the physical aspects of femininity are based on the broad characterizations made by the contributing writers/artists of the core genre... Comic Books. I feel this topic cannot be discussed without mentioning what contributes to "sexual identity" in the western world. However, that is taboo here so... This discussion maybe at an impasse.
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We may not be able to discuss the specifics of WHY various roles and looks are gender stereotyped, but like many taboo subjects I think many of us know it when we see it. Some of classic comic gender benders are quite memorable and charming. Peppermint Patty, anyone? Anyways, I think what Sam (and a few others) have requested over the years are a few more tools in the costume creator to play with this pretty standard strategy for defining a character in visual fiction. Regrettably, I think a few firey places would need to freeze over though before we see tutus in the Huge->Belts category.
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From other women. Its always been from other women. Men can exert a lot of pressure on women to look attractive, but on average men cannot even get past two on a scale of one to ten when it comes to female peer pressure.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Why are men accepted in all the shapes they come in, yet women are only really accepted in one shape ever at all? Simply put, because men are never scrutinised all that closely, while women are... Somehow, by some ungodly authority, held up to a strict, exacting standard of conformity. A British comedian once had an entire skit about all the horrible things women do to themselves to look prettier, ending with "But you know what the worst thing is? Guys aren't that fussy!" Speaking as a guy... No, I really don't think we are. So where the HELL does that kind of pressure come from?
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With the disclaimer that everyone is different and everyone's circumstances are different, on average its amazing to me the complex web of fashion rules that exist for women, nearly all of them involving the judgment of other women. "Age appropriate attire" is something you hear far more in the context of women than men, and it tends to be judged far more harshly by other women. Female fashion is, at its heart, the art of wearing something that is nearly the same as everyone else without actually being identical to everyone else. If men had to follow that fashion rule, 83% of the male population in the western world would be unable to leave the house.
My own theory is that the subtle pressure at work here is boys grow up in a social dynamic where you're not supposed to care about what other people think about you, or at least *pretend* not to care. Girls are brought up in a social dynamic of fitting into groups. It is that small opportunity that allows peer pressure to slip in at a very early age and start influencing girls to care far more about how other girls judge how they look, how they act, and how they think, than for boys, and it leaks into the larger culture of appearance and body image.
How do men factor into all of this? Primarily as bystanders. Its women who discuss among themselves what men want, women who decide what it is men want, and then judge all other women on the basis of being able to satisfy those requirements. What the men themselves actually want is not often particularly relevant to the process.
I was reading an article the other day in Wired magazine about caricatures, and it reminded me that human brains seem to have evolved to "norm" the notion of what people look like, and "attractiveness" seems to be related to how a particular person compares to an "average" face that the brain builds up over time. The stronger that average model is, the stronger the sense of relative attractiveness when compared to other faces.
So here's a question for the guys and the women out there. From your earliest memories of childhood to the present day, how often do you remember yourself specifically looking at faces? And whose faces? Do guys look at the faces of other guys as often as girls look at the faces of other girls I wonder. I wonder if another subtle dynamic is that girls, subtly pressured to be more social, see and study more faces more often when younger. And that one tiny little thing causes younger girls to formulate stronger opinions of attractiveness and self-image of girls at an earlier age, and that carries over into the teen years. Boys, on the other hand, perhaps spend more time looking at girls. So both boys and girls end up with stronger opinions about how girls look than both do about how boys look. And that creates a positive feedback loop for girls that doesn't exist for boys to the same degree. And then this snowballs over time.
If nothing else, its an interesting conjecture.
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We're forgetting the men because they aren't being sexualized. They are clothed in a way that says "I'm a superhero in the classic cape and tights sense, and I'm only wearing this skintight outfit because it's easier to draw" and posed in a way that says "I'm going to kick your ***" rather than "look at my boobs."|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
To everyone criticising the women in this game as being overly sexualised towards women, let me just point out one thing.
You're forgetting the men. |
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| But tbh...it's completely fine. Especially in a game where people can opt out of this by deviating from the norm. Butch women and feminine men are possible to be made in the costume creator. |
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| Plus if you look at the game narrative; the genders are portrayed to be very much equal. |
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Originally Posted by _eeek_
This doesn't make it sexist. Something had to be the standard, it could have as easily been the female, which would have then had unforeseen consequences on the different male anatomy.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
It is also worrying that you think it's "normal" for men to appear strong.
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I'm personally not holding out any hope. The splash page and promo art we've gotten lately has shown a very specific view of female characters. Highlights include Mother Mayhem's boobs, Sister Psyche's boobs, Desdemona's boobs, Desdemona's butt, and Desdemona's boobs and butt at the same time, which requires a pose that, while technically possible, is far from heroic and isn't a pose anyone would strike for any reason other than to show off their boobs and butt at the same time. T&A sells, so they're milking it. Of course, the video game and superhero genres are so saturated with T&A that the lack thereof is its own selling point, but it's always safer to do what everybody else is doing.
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"Hey, I only wear skintight clothes that are easy to draw" is, if nothing else, a pick up line you will never forget.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
We're forgetting the men because they aren't being sexualized. They are clothed in a way that says "I'm a superhero in the classic cape and tights sense, and I'm only wearing this skintight outfit because it's easier to draw" and posed in a way that says "I'm going to kick your ***" rather than "look at my boobs."
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This reaffirms my desire to reroll Aunt Millie when Street Justice comes out.
She's putting the AUNT back in TAUNT AURA. Complete with boring argyle sweater, plaid knee-length skirt, and invuln/ tanker powers.
I not speaking for all female gamer who liking certain costume but I am petite and not liking it but I very short. I make toon in reflection to my body and height and university uniform of depend to summer/winter. I believing if woman would liking larger hand or of body area this should be topic Devs maybe consider but of honestly I would remaining to scale to myself. I have small hand and to picking up very large weapon as you state be extreme difficult or if over weighted unless I working out enough to making self muscled. In every case of word it is opinion and desire of woman in general to deciding what they wishing make character of looking like and yes more detail option between both sexes would needing be re work but to do this all option for male/female creation would needing be revisit then released in big expansion. I not believe options to enhance feature of female body to be wrong as all knowing each woman different or have views of different creation just like of male player to using their opinion of woman features when they playing. Sometime it is crude but they having this right as player in certain means. Sometime it can being very rude and obvious of the look that they not being considerate to other players feelings but this what GM for.
^^; In self opinion I not personally seeing wrong doing of editors inside this MMO. I always loving options. But to make this fair on same scale it would taking looooong time of fixing. It be nice to seeing full dimension details of every aspect of character but it would having to be on both sides.
Please excuse for improper sentencing and maybe spelling. I still not the best of English yet!
Soon�
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Don't worry about it: we make allowances for New Jersey accents.|
Originally Posted by MishiiLove
I not speaking for all female gamer who liking certain costume but I am petite and not liking it but I very short. I make toon in reflection to my body and height and university uniform of depend to summer/winter. I believing if woman would liking larger hand or of body area this should be topic Devs maybe consider but of honestly I would remaining to scale to myself. I have small hand and to picking up very large weapon as you state be extreme difficult or if over weighted unless I working out enough to making self muscled. In every case of word it is opinion and desire of woman in general to deciding what they wishing make character of looking like and yes more detail option between both sexes would needing be re work but to do this all option for male/female creation would needing be revisit then released in big expansion. I not believe options to enhance feature of female body to be wrong as all knowing each woman different or have views of different creation just like of male player to using their opinion of woman features when they playing. Sometime it is crude but they having this right as player in certain means. Sometime it can being very rude and obvious of the look that they not being considerate to other players feelings but this what GM for.
^^; In self opinion I not personally seeing wrong doing of editors inside this MMO. I always loving options. But to make this fair on same scale it would taking looooong time of fixing. It be nice to seeing full dimension details of every aspect of character but it would having to be on both sides. Please excuse for improper sentencing and maybe spelling. I still not the best of English yet! |
I think that while sometimes we can get caught up in holding up examples of "sexist" poses, costumes, or whatever, I think most people realize and its important to highlight that what you personally prefer to play is fine. If you want to play a petite girl with small hands and a schoolgirl uniform, it is NOT sexist for you to want to do that. Women play big breasted bikini clad sashayers all the time, and this is a fantasy role playing game: if that is what they find fun, no one should feel embarrassed about their preferences.
No one is, or at least should be, suggesting removing options, no matter how mild, girlish, coquettish, haughty, or just plain slutty they may appear. No guy should be embarrassed to play them, no woman should be embarrassed to play them. What most people want is *more* options that fill in the blanks elsewhere besides schoolgirls and Power Girl. But, not to put too fine a point on it, no one should believe they are hurting the cause to play schoolgirls and Power Girl. You pay your money, and you're entitled to have fun just like everyone else.
So: make whatever you want, play whatever you want, and we're all cool with it. No one here wants to take those options from you, and no one here judges you for using those options (at least, no one should). The only thing at issue is addressing the addition of *more* options for people who want to play something different.
Also, your English makes my Japanese look like the typing of someone having electroshock treatment while at the keyboard. If I was lost in Tokyo and asked for the location of the train station, there is a 50% chance I'd ask for an electric blender by mistake.
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I'm going to break my rule and not read everything first, because I'm just throwing my opinion in. I don't give these things much thought in CoH, because no matter how many costume pieces I will probably never use, there are more than enough to let me make my characters both attractive and modest, which is all I ask.
And have you been to that other superhero MMO with much less controlled sliders and the saucy idle stances?
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
It is not surprising that people within an MMORPG do not understand male sexuality.
Why did I even bother.
I'm just going to chime in to say... Sam, I don't think you're so alone on this as you seem to suggest in the original post.
I don't see anything that is silly, joke, or even niche about wanting bigger, tougher, more muscular options for female characters, clothing/armor options and weapons and such.
And I also love the idea for "Titan-Arms", as we've both wanted to see Monster-Arms and I also remember when SilverAged coined the Titan-Arm phrase, hehe.
Also, while you're right about it being caricaturization... the 'isms sort of go hand-in-hand with caricaturization.
Anyway, some great replies in here.
I love Sam's talk about a well-understood problem is an easily solvable problem, hehe.
And Arcana's thoughts about how a lot of the psychology manifests is certainly quite often the case.
I also think that Xanatos's points are important.
While I do believe there is a major cross-over in the standard super-hero/action-hero ideals and some of the standard sexual ideals of men, his points can't be dismissed. Not that I feel like anyone was really dismissing them either. I mean, part of the point is that those are one-in-the same within our society for a reason. However... is that because of an over-sexualization about male action heroes? Or is that because a large part of the naturally developed psychology of the human male sexual indicators are about healthiness, strength and ability to provide by means of a physical nature in the wilderness? So, naturally... a strong, healthy super hero is going to set off some bells. Just as pronounced aspects of the female form set off bells of fertility and such (however, Xanatos, those aspects do not generally help out in physical heroism).
Let's face it... we're all screwed up from our history, our development, our cultures (and a large assortment of other aspects of humanity) to the point that it is impossible to completely separate all of the quagmires and reasons and justifications and caricatures and insanity and so on.
No, it is not all that difficult (at least, for some) to analyze and view objectively... but there will always be extents and points to which we really shall remain the primordial, chemically-driven creatures that we are. And, then again... that is the truth, so why do we travel so far in order to remove it?
I'm not saying the above to suggest that we shouldn't, nor that I don't do so... Just pointing to the inherent humor and difficulty (perhaps absurdity) of it all.
Oh right... rambling...
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and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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A generalized disparagement about gamers from a gamer? Interesting, but not a good idea. Keep it civil.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
It is not surprising that people within an MMORPG do not understand male sexuality.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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I think this is a bit strong. I appreciated your input, and I think you do have a point that it's hard to perceive bias from within a cultural framework. That said, I think I did raise a specific question which I would very much like your opinion on: given that the parameters for attractiveness, athleticism, and heroism have a lot of overlap (as defined by the framing culture etc etc), how can you tell the difference between a male character who acquires attractive qualities as a side effect of having heroic qualities, and a male character who acquires heroic qualities as a side effect of having attractive qualities?|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
It is not surprising that people within an MMORPG do not understand male sexuality.
Why did I even bother. |
Also, I'll fully admit that I don't have a strong grasp of what makes a man attractive, in this or any other culture, because I don't have a sexual attraction to men. That said, I've read and viewed many works by people who do find men attractive, and thus seen many depictions of what I can only assume are sexually idealized men. They're a varied lot, I'll say that much. Some of them do look and act like the archetypal superhero. Many others don't. So if there's something I'm not getting here, I'd appreciate you laying it out in simple terms, because I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say.
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This thread just reminded me of an article I came across the newspaper today. The authorities in my country has declared an abercrombie Ad to be indecent because it featured a topless male model. 
Yet nobody kicks up a big fuss when they see a lingerie ad featuring girls wearing 2 pcs lingerie showing almost 80% of their skin.
Its not ok for guys to show skin, they have to exude strength confidence and manliness. People seem to be offended to look at a naked man, its indecent or wrong.
But its ok for the girls to show off as much skin as they can, and even in very suggestive postures.
I will miss you City of Heroes..
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Fat slider and Huge Female Avatars are a waste of time for the devs of any game to create.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Come to think of it, wedon't have a 'fat' slider either, do we? We can't make a villain like The Blob for example.
Eco |
You see it mentioned on the forums, "Oh, I'd like to have this added!" but then go look in game.
You don't see a lot of Huge Male Models in use, you don't see alot of people running around with the physique slider way up or the waist slider way up.
Asking for these two things would be a waste of creator time that could be spent on things a majority of players would use.
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I never really know how I fit into these discussions, because I am this gay dude with a banner full of campy, drag inspired, off-brand superheroes that few would take as serious commentaries on gender relations, but I will give it a try.
IMO the promotional artwork for this game does tend to present females in more sexual poses than men. I think the differences between the presentation of Desdemona and Maelstrom are readily noticeable. There really isn't a male character in this game sexualized to the same degree.
That said, we just got done saying we are okay with people dressing up their characters however they like. So the question sort of becomes, if that's okay, is it wrong to be attracted by a game advertising what you're likely to buy?
Now, personally, I actually think Desdemona is nice to look at because I am not blind, and woman are attractive for various reasons. On the other hand in D's case I also can't help but be reminded of Cher in the late 80s. There's a certain kind of camp to being a demon summoning chick named "Desdemona" and running around carrying--of all things--a flaming whip. While she's sort of standardized promotional T&A material, she's also exactly the kind of character who is ripe for female impersonators, and that makes me wonder if, in a strictly non-canonical sense, there's not an underground interpretation that she is not actually female. While I don't think that's the standard interpretation, its certainly an interesting one in terms of this discussion and others like it.
Anyway I agree that more costume pieces shared between both genders would be great. But I also play a hoochie or two and don't want to lose those costume pieces.
And all I thought when I saw the new Barbarian set was "I wonder whether the name Fanservice Lass is taken yet." (It wasn't.)
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I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying... |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Fat slider and Huge Female Avatars are a waste of time for the devs of any game to create.
You see it mentioned on the forums, "Oh, I'd like to have this added!" but then go look in game. You don't see a lot of Huge Male Models in use, you don't see alot of people running around with the physique slider way up or the waist slider way up. Asking for these two things would be a waste of creator time that could be spent on things a majority of players would use. |
It's just that I don't entirely agree with being quite so adamant about it.
You see, you say that we hardly see people using x or y or z... but people do use it. Just a smaller amount of people, for sure.
However, I sometimes think that is a great aspect of options. Should options provided be based around wide usage or about greater variance for the fewer used extremes?
Obviously the business side looks for the more attractive popular choices, as that might entice sales, subscriptions, interest... However, there is validity to expanding the choices to the rarer interests to satisfy those extremes as well.
I do, however, think that the marketing, design and development team agree with you and they will not "waste" efforts on such things.
I'd just love to see things well-enough so that resources could be put to those things. I don't think that'll happen though.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
Well think of it from a player standpoint.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying...
It's just that I don't entirely agree with being quite so adamant about it. You see, you say that we hardly see people using x or y or z... but people do use it. Just a smaller amount of people, for sure. However, I sometimes think that is a great aspect of options. Should options provided be based around wide usage or about greater variance for the fewer used extremes? Obviously the business side looks for the more attractive popular choices, as that might entice sales, subscriptions, interest... However, there is validity to expanding the choices to the rarer interests to satisfy those extremes as well. I do, however, think that the marketing, design and development team agree with you and they will not "waste" efforts on such things. I'd just love to see things well-enough so that resources could be put to those things. I don't think that'll happen though. |
If you're a player who would never use these options (and from looking at most characters out there, most wouldn't) would you want them using up all their time on this?
I wouldn't. With the new costume pieces, I can see many people using them! Okay Cyborg pack seems to not get much use. But generally, those pieces get used. Those new sliders/models...not as likely.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
However, looking at the costume items that are exclusive to men, I don't see much that sexualizes masculinity, unless you become weak at the knees in the presence of cigars, cornrows, or coats below the waist (and if you do, hey, rock on). Whereas looking at the costume items that are exclusive to women, I see a lot of stuff that is both distinctly feminine and distinctly sexual (and distinctly impractical). If you can point out a male-exclusive item that a man would wear to make himself more attractive, even at the cost of practicality in a highly physically active profession, then I will be quite surprised and may even need to retrieve my monocle.
-The walk/run animation. All three genders should be given the option to use both.
-Costume options being limited by gender. Assuming the art time is available, all options should be available to both genders. (Including mustaches.)
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs