Retreading "feminism"
More, I'm interested in examining the representation of women in our game, because while we're miles ahead of most other MMOs, I'll definitely admit that much, I feel there's still rather a lot to say. I choose to examine this outside of context, because I don't think there's any one thing that needs to be DONE on the subject. More, I'm looking at examining people's mentality and beliefs and trying to find the broadest possible compromise between them. Because when it comes to how it relates to THIS game, I think what we really need is to come up with a more specific idea of what we should be asking for in the broadest possible terms.
Let me give you an ooold example: Female weapons were scaled down to be very small because the female model was made with very small hands. As far as that goes, it's only logical. However, the problem really isn't JUST giving women bigger weapons, it's the reasoning behind making their hands so small to begin with, and the reasoning behind why giving them bigger hands has never even been considered. It's not a question of JUST new weapons or modified old ones, it's a question of the rhetoric behind the very idea itself.
Again - I don't want with examples here, because examples muddy the broader issue of how we feel with the narrower issue of what we want in particular. And I do believe there's much to be said here without breaking forum rules. I like to think our community is reasonable enough to discuss "difficult" subjects with a level head.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I would say they are represented as petite because that is how they are mostly represented in comics. The game only followed the comic book example. There are female characters in comics who are not petite, but they are the exception, and not the norm. The game does allow for that representation for female characters.
That is one of the great things about this game, the costume creator allows for almost any representation of any character.
Now, as long as you have guys making female characters, you are going to see more skimpy costumes. I personally do not play female characters, but I do know guys who only play female characters because they find them more pleasing to the eye.
I have a wife, and three daughters. I have enough women in my life without adding another in an MMO.
I also have a 14yo son, and there have been times in this game where I almost felt the need to cover his eyes. I am betting in most cases costumes like that are designed by male players. I however assume everyone on the internet is male, not matter what they say.
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For the first time in this debate, I have heard an argument worth considering. To make this simpler, I wouldn't mind seeing a collection, or completed works, of what poses make the point.
A demonstration in the way of a comic or two would be something we should all be willing to read and consider with civility.
As My best stick figure drawing all seem to have the same pose (standing with some form of broken legs), I would welcome suggestions of comics and/or characters that make the point.
edit: After reading a little more, I must disagree with only one point. I'm not sure that demonstrative drawings would muddy the issue. As I am accepting the premise that the pose is producing the undesirable affect. To counter this, a collection of poses that indicate the intent of the character towards the current situation is the very context that should be established. The logos of incorporating the character into the story could be the impetus to softening the debate.
Thanks for bringing a well thought discussion amidst this sea of strangeness.
* Freedom -
PlanetStar - 26 Earth/Kin
Mary GoldThorne 18 Corr
* Infinity -
BoltStar - 28 Blaster
PlanetStar - 24 Earth/Kin
Tempest Howl - 30 Def Son/Son
That is one of the great things about this game, the costume creator allows for almost any representation of any character.
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To a large extent, that original legacy has shaped the game into what it is today. As I said before, BABs made female weapons small because females were made with small hands and giving them bigger hands was like giving them fingers - too much work. Whatever we may have to say about the Breast... Sorry, I mean the "Chest" slider or the Hips slider and so forth, the actual "Muscle" slider is also a legacy of the game's original roots, and that has always been more of a butt and breasts slider fort women since as far back as I remember. We've spoken about a new female model that's less like this, and David - the guy who's basically open to practically any suggestion - still said "No, that won't happen." in a way so final that I haven't really considered broaching the subject again since.
So, on the one hand... Yeah, that's how comic books are and that's how the game was made back before players really had any say over it. On the other hand, though... Some of the ways things are being handled concern me. I have to hand it to David for coming out of the Barbarian mess with head held high and a good point, but some of the things players said then - and indeed that players have said on the subject before - concern me. Sure, some people just don't like the more "butch" approach to making female characters, and I can respect that in the same way that I'm not a big fan of feminine male design, but I heard noises to the effect that women SHOULDN'T be represented with more masculinity, that this somehow took away from femininity and was in itself just wrong. I'm not saying that's actual feminism talking... In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not, but my point is that some people do genuinely seem to feel that way, and THAT concerns me.
I've more or less accepted my state of being branded as "weird" just because I have a couple of "giant women" that I've spent years asking for muscles for. It comes with the territory. Yet it strikes me that so much more COULD be done on the subject that simply never is, and a lot of the time it feels like the popular belief is that only I and, like, a couple other people here on the forums want that so it's not something worth giving a lot of attention to. I can't say if that's actually true, because priorities are something the art team is juggling all the time, but that's the vibe I get from some parts of the playerbase, and that really worries me. The developers I can argue, because the developers can be appealed to, even if they don't always look it. And appeal to them I have, but it's players that I kind of want to discuss with, because more often than not, it's players I clash with on the subject more than anyone else.
To make a long story short, though, I kind of want to see City of Heroes expand to include as many overall themes as is mechanically possible. I guess the reason this comes up from time to time is less because people want something that CAN'T happen and more because people feel like what they want is seen as "wrong" for the game. That's probably what I want to discuss more than anything else.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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For the first time in this debate, I have heard an argument worth considering. To make this simpler, I wouldn't mind seeing a collection, or completed works, of what poses make the point.
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I'm still not quite sure what I want to do with this revelation, but I'll be re-examining my female characters as I get around to playing them in the future, that's a given. Reading what I've written, I'm also reminded of the three prerequisites for the Bechdel Test:
Thank you. I'll go edit my post to include that.:
1. At least two female characters have to exist.
2. They have to have at least one conversation with each other, that...
3. Is not about one of the male characters in the cast.
I caught myself afoul of this rule when writing a recent story, but I caught it early enough in the planning stages to fix it
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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See, one of the reasons I found that revelation so interesting is because while it had never crossed my mind to think about it, as soon as I realised this was a "thing," I immediately started remembering things I'd watched and seen and realising this was actually pretty true. Worse still, I started thinking back to things I've described or had drawn and realising I - much as I consider myself fair in this regard - was just as guilty of.
I'm still not quite sure what I want to do with this revelation, but I'll be re-examining my female characters as I get around to playing them in the future, that's a given. Reading what I've written, I'm also reminded of the three prerequisites for I forget what it was. Having decent female characters in your work, I think: 1. At least two female characters have to exist. 2. They have to have at least one conversation with each other, that... 3. Is not about one of the male characters in the cast. I caught myself afoul of this rule when writing a recent story, but I caught it early enough in the planning stages to fix it ![]() |
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
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The test itself isn't a big deal. It was just what one woman used to decide whether she would watch a film or not. A film that passes it isn't necessarily good or anything. The point of it was that so few films actually passed.
*edit*
Aaand... Done
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You shouldn't see men making more skimpy outfits for women than women would. That you do see this, though, is evidence of a culture that has sexual attractiveness in the eyes of straight men as an integral part of being "a woman".
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As for the deeper subject, that kind of is a problem, but it's more of a problem of society and culture and that's veering a bit away from discussions about the game and into discussions that I'm honestly not competent for. That is, however, a marked problem for this game, because developers more or less make what we ask for, and it's been very difficult, historically speaking, to ask for costumes and designs that don't fit the conventional definition of sexy and attractive. And I say "difficult" not because I keep being rebuffed when I do this - quite on the contrary, David Nakayama has been nothing if not open-minded. No it's been difficult because it seems like a lot of players consider a female character who isn't somehow attractive to not be feminine and "I'd rather the developers work on something else." as is becoming a catch phrase worthy of "soon" around these parts.
That's a good way of putting it, though - if we can dissociate sexual attraction from good aesthetic design, we may actually end up with a lot more freedom. I wish I'd thought to phrase is like that from the get go.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I would say they are represented as petite because that is how they are mostly represented in comics. The game only followed the comic book example. There are female characters in comics who are not petite, but they are the exception, and not the norm. The game does allow for that representation for female characters.
That is one of the great things about this game, the costume creator allows for almost any representation of any character. Now, as long as you have guys making female characters, you are going to see more skimpy costumes. I personally do not play female characters, but I do know guys who only play female characters because they find them more pleasing to the eye. I have a wife, and three daughters. I have enough women in my life without adding another in an MMO. I also have a 14yo son, and there have been times in this game where I almost felt the need to cover his eyes. I am betting in most cases costumes like that are designed by male players. I however assume everyone on the internet is male, not matter what they say. ![]() |
That's just one example (happens to be my favorite because I didn't expect it, I was all "You made a stripper")
To Sam, truthfully, nothing done in game is actually anti-feminism. Feminism is about a woman being able to do what she wants/decides.
Feminism IS NOT about a woman having to wear a business suit or covering up every inch of herself, ect...ect.
So you having scantily clad female heroes doesn't mean anything in the ways of not knowing feminism.
It's an outfit, it's legal to wear, if that's what they prefere to be wearing. So be it.
Sadly, there are "feminists" who don't even get that.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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The test itself isn't a big deal. It was just what one woman used to decide whether she would watch a film or not. A film that passes it isn't necessarily good or anything. The point of it was that so few films actually passed.
But you shouldn't. You shouldn't see men making more skimpy outfits for women than women would. That you do see this, though, is evidence of a culture that has sexual attractiveness in the eyes of straight men as an integral part of being "a woman". |
I think it would be prudent to limit this debate and not suggest broader soical issues. We'll be here all day.
I suppose the costume creator could have some changes. But I'm not sure. I am loathe to dictate what someone wants to create. I am accepting this discussion within the context of drawn characters in stories. As, Samuel has stated it is something to reconsider. And I too am guilty of prepuscent pleasure on occasion. But, to our credit, it is the exception and not the rule.
So yes I am minimizing the discussion somewhat to the occasional occurence. But to that end, a thougful consideration for animators and designers might be worthy for future published works.
* Freedom -
PlanetStar - 26 Earth/Kin
Mary GoldThorne 18 Corr
* Infinity -
BoltStar - 28 Blaster
PlanetStar - 24 Earth/Kin
Tempest Howl - 30 Def Son/Son
You'd be so wrong. My favorite example of this is my own mother in the character creation...female avatar with nothing but a trenchcoat, bikini top and bottoms, gloves, and I forget if it was stilettos or cowboy boots, chest slider almost to max...enter the game.
That's just one example (happens to be my favorite because I didn't expect it, I was all "You made a stripper") To Sam, truthfully, nothing done in game is actually anti-feminism. Feminism is about a woman being able to do what she wants/decides. Feminism IS NOT about a woman having to wear a business suit or covering up every inch of herself, ect...ect. So you having scantily clad female heroes doesn't mean anything in the ways of not knowing feminism. It's an outfit, it's legal to wear, if that's what they prefere to be wearing. So be it. Sadly, there are "feminists" who don't even get that. |
The issue is more the options that are given to female characters. Reference the Magic Pack, and the reasons why females aren't allowed to have awesome steampunk jackets.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/baisleac/Sig%20Requests/ComSmersh.png)
My wife tends to clothe her female characters in skimpier clothing than I do, and that's okay.
The issue is more the options that are given to female characters. Reference the Magic Pack, and the reasons why females aren't allowed to have awesome steampunk jackets. |
My wife likes to make very conservative character costumes.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
So you having scantily clad female heroes doesn't mean anything in the ways of not knowing feminism.
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![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
In either case, I'm trying to sidestep the heavier of the problems for no reason other than because I don't feel confident enough to speak about them with any authority or conviction, and if I did try to, I'd make a double-cheeked *** of myself.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Types of Swords
My Portfolio
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/baisleac/Sig%20Requests/ComSmersh.png)
Maybe, but me suggesting it means I don't know anything about feminism... Probably means I don't know anything about feminism
![]() In either case, I'm trying to sidestep the heavier of the problems for no reason other than because I don't feel confident enough to speak about them with any authority or conviction, and if I did try to, I'd make a double-cheeked *** of myself. |
It is the collection of all of ideas that creates progress. And yes, this may be somewhat hopeful, and idealistic but it is the only way I see progress being made for the current generations. Although, I'm not wholly sure this is a feminist issue anymore. Others have mentioned that not having all options across the sexes as being the bugaboo and to this I would certainly agree. I see no reason not to have all options across the board.
As in RL, there will be some aesthetically pleasing and some not so. Such is the way of nature.
* Freedom -
PlanetStar - 26 Earth/Kin
Mary GoldThorne 18 Corr
* Infinity -
BoltStar - 28 Blaster
PlanetStar - 24 Earth/Kin
Tempest Howl - 30 Def Son/Son
Now, as long as you have guys making female characters, you are going to see more skimpy costumes.
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I've actually found this rather interesting. I play about an even mix of male and female characters. I also play with several people that, yes, I know are actually women.
While the "guys make skimpy costumes" bit can't really be argued *against,* it's not hard and fast - I seem to keep my women more dressed than the women playing do in most instances. (Which is not to say they don't run around fully clothed on their characters, but they'll also tend towards more revealing outfits as well. Not "Eden +tiny bikini bottom," but more skin than I tend to have mine show.)
I personally do not play female characters, but I do know guys who only play female characters because they find them more pleasing to the eye. |
Admittedly it's a short drive, but still.
My wife tends to clothe her female characters in skimpier clothing than I do, and that's okay.
The issue is more the options that are given to female characters. Reference the Magic Pack, and the reasons why females aren't allowed to have awesome steampunk jackets. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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The BrandX Collection
Maybe, but me suggesting it means I don't know anything about feminism... Probably means I don't know anything about feminism
![]() In either case, I'm trying to sidestep the heavier of the problems for no reason other than because I don't feel confident enough to speak about them with any authority or conviction, and if I did try to, I'd make a double-cheeked *** of myself. |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
I was just refering to your links.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
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The BrandX Collection
I think it would be prudent to limit this debate and not suggest broader soical issues.
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Because, like, that is the point of a superhero game. Playing a person of superhuman ability. Someone who is superpowered, not super sexy. If you want something to get off to there's a million other places. Getting it out there that nobody has to be hot to be a role model or take place in the spotlight is a necessary goal if we want to have a decent society to live in. Having entertainment that helps with this is important because people do form an understanding of themselves and others through what they like to read and do.
Yes, I'm aware most of us are tired of the subject and the flame wars that tend to erupt around it, and I'm probably not qualified to talk about it, but the issue keeps being raised I feel for a reason, both in issues new and old, and I don't think we've ever actually addressed it generally outside of the context of any specific costume set or change. The practical reason I decided to post this now instead of, you know, playing the damn game like I should be in my time off, is this:
Movie Bob's "The Big Picture" video on "Gender Games," as he puts it.
Now, I'm not here to review the video itself, but there is one very specific point I want to draw from it: Poses. I consider myself an observant guy, yet for all the reasons the representation of females in modern fiction has bothered me, I've never been able to put my finger on it so specifically as "poses," and more generally the way body language characters use to communicate their personalities.
Now, to many it may seem absurd that people like me would cry foul of over something as simple as women having smaller weapons or getting "barbarian" stilettos or being stuck with a running animation which emphasises butt wiggle over everything else, or having a "muscle" slider that seems to concentrate on making their breasts and buts bigger, those being famous areas of muscle mass and... Where was I going with this? Right! To some, making a big deal of any of these, or even ALL of these, may seem absurd and uncalled for, but I think there's a reason this keeps happening, and I don't think we can really blame the game or the developers for this all the way. Consider that between the costumes women get, the costumes women tend to wear AND the demeanour their animations are given... Something ain't right.
But much as I want to dev-bash as I have been for a while now, I don't think I can, not without a lot of caveats. No, what strikes me every time a subject like this comes up is that actual unaffiliated players raise their voices to talk about femininity and how females SHOULD be represented as such. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but as Movie Bob says, men often get to represent a great many thing just in the way they look and act, not always even remotely related to masculinity, yet women still seem to somehow get saddled with exuding femininity before they exude anything else.
Again, I'm not laying the blame on the developers in general or the art team in particular. Hell, the latest set we got - CoT - is completely homogeneous between genders. For all the other things I hate about it, at the very least it's completely fair and equal, and that counts for a lot in my eyes. However, from my eyes the bigger problem of perception still remains because for YEARS now the bulk of my cosmetic suggestions have been for women and have aimed to make them appear more "butch" as someone said a while back. Now, I "get" the technical side of the problem with these suggestions, but what I honestly don't get is the... I don't want to say "moral" but let's say that I don't get the "philosophical" disagreement with the very idea. And it IS quite a serious disagreement, I should say, because I've been called a "pervert" over it, though that's a story for another time.
My point? Beyond just an idle examination of a topic I find interesting and an excuse to post an intelligent video, Titanic Weapons are coming. We don't know when, but they are. We've been promised that those would be giant for ALL genders, and that will invariably raise the question once more, possibly more so than ever before. Another poster joked about adding "Titanic Arms" to go with Titanic Weapons at my constant suggestion for Robotic Arms getting muscular human arm options, but that's kind of the point - all of these suggestions seem to be interpreted as jokes, or at best as niche appeal. Women appearing masculine, both in costume and mannerism (anyone remember the hatred for the "with weapon" run style for women?) is seen as something weird, unpopular and unnecessary for the most part, and this befuddles me. Men are allowed to cover the full spectrum of characters, right down to practically feminine, yet women representing anything other than femininity is... Niche?
I really don't mean to start a fight here, and I'd really appreciate if we could approach this with civility, but I also feel that this needs to be examined in a more abstract context than JUST the Barbarian set or JUST body sliders or what have you.