The Alignment Imbalance


Agent White

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Impervious Fist View Post
I try my best to keep my complaints to myself, but I think it's time to let one out.

This is obviously just picking at the smallest things to some people, and I could see why, but I have a huge amount of Vigilantes/Rogues and now I've finally noticed that to me, I hardly see a point in playing ordinary one-side Heroes and Villains anymore. Let alone any Praetorian now that I've finished all of the arcs and Issue 21 allows starting as any Archetype at level 1. Okay, they get Hero/Villain merits sure, but how is that really equal to being opened to twice as much content as someone who is able to get those merits? Maybe we could get some pure hero/villain arcs, or maybe some other benefit for heroes/villains? Or, maybe, some slight restrictions on Vigilantes/Rogues?

tl;dr: Vigilantes/Rogues have more benefits than Heroes/Villains/Praetorians and I'm mad about it but a bit shy about complaining about it.
That's funny.

Most of the posts I've seen regarding alignment balance are saying that Vigilantes are getting screwed because they don't get alignment merits, and to be honest, that's exactly what I expected this one to be as well.

I may bookmark this and use it as evidence the next time I see one of those posts.

Personally, I think the alignments are balanced pretty well. Heroes/Villains are constrained to their own side of the game, but get alignment merits that let them obtain rare recipes faster.

Vigilantes/Rogues don't get alignment merits, but they can travel to anywhere in the game and run any content they like.

Seems fair to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Isn't the Alignment Merits argument a little bit obsolete now?
It is far more efficient to make your pruchases with Astral/Emp merits now than Alignment.
There really isn't any reason to be a hero/villain over vig/rogue now...

Even before the incarnate merits, the decision to be a pure alignment was rather dubious. Being able to get eight Hamis in four days is more profitable than being able to get four Hamis and one lotg.


 

Posted

The 'Run any content they like' argument always makes me laugh.

When Fear Trigger is in the Rogue Isles, she can do the following:

Newspaper Missions
Mayhem Missions
Start Task Forces (if they have a team with the correct amount of players to start)
Do the Signature Story Arc
Do Vigilante > Villain Tip Missions.
Team with others doing Story Arcs.

She cannot:

Start Contact Missions/Arcs
Start the Patron Arc
Join the Redside Death From Below Trial
Access Redside Ouroboros to do old arcs/missions.

Considering Contact Missions/Arcs are a large part of the game and reward Badges and Reward Merits they might be something I'd want to do to get badge titles and so on. But I can't. So I cannot 'run any content I like.'

If she had level 20+ Vigilante arcs and missions to do in the Isles and Paragon City, and maybe some kind of special contacts to get temp powers from, then them not having access to H/V Merits would be understandable.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
Isn't the Alignment Merits argument a little bit obsolete now?
It is far more efficient to make your pruchases with Astral/Emp merits now than Alignment.
There really isn't any reason to be a hero/villain over vig/rogue now...
If you're buying purples, yes, but for anything else, it's conservatively 2 hours for a recipe. I doubt you can get 32 astrals in 2 hours.

Plus, you need to be 50 to even begin, compared to being 20 and getting xp along with your merits.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Zortel View Post
If she had level 20+ Vigilante arcs and missions to do in the Isles and Paragon City, and maybe some kind of special contacts to get temp powers from, then them not having access to H/V Merits would be understandable.
This is the part I find funniest about the whole thing. The reward for being vigilante is you can go to rogue isles, but if you want to get vigilante style morality missions, you need to go back to PC.

Rogue and vigilante seem designed as speedbumps to switching sides completely, as there isn't a sustainable point where I can keep doing vigilante missions in the enemy's area.


 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
If you're buying purples, yes, but for anything else, it's conservatively 2 hours for a recipe. I doubt you can get 32 astrals in 2 hours.

Plus, you need to be 50 to even begin, compared to being 20 and getting xp along with your merits.
Plus you can earn them solo. Fighting -1x0 enemies.


Sure you have to do it over two days, but you can do it with multiple characters in parallel.


 

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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
For someone like me, who has more Inf than he knows what to do with... and doens't really use IOs at all (except on a few characters), A-Merits don't seem like much of anything.
Same here. In fact, merits period. I have around 800 reward merits on my badger. The only merits I've spent are Empyreans/Astrals for the costume bits.

--NT


They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

 

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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
While being a 'tourist' you cannot:

* Access O-Zone. This not only keeps you from accessing old arcs on your own outside of contacts (which as established you cannot do), but it's also a useful transit tool that essentially isn't available while on the other side.
False.

If you are a hero or vigilante you can access the hero version of Ouroborus.

If you are a villain or rogue you can access the villain version of Ouroborus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
* Access SG bases. This hampers both social interactions (some people hang out in SG bases) as well as actual gameplay benefits (storage, base teleporters, empowerment stations).
False.

If you are a hero or vigilante you can access the hero bases (provided you have the rights to enter, like having the team leader options set as the team leader's base).

If you are a villain or rogue you can access the villain bases (provided you have the rights to enter, like having the team leader options set as the team leader's base).




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

I have a few characters who are Vigilantes/Rogues for "in character" reasons, but that's pretty much it.

The fact that Vigilantes and Rogues can't access any of the other side's content outside of generic scanner/paper missions without a team of tagalongs is majorly disappointing. The fact that, even with a team, they are a limited as to what content they can do is disappointing. The fact that Vigilantes and Rogues can't do tourist tip missions without changing their alignment is disappointing. Everything about them feels, all in all, half-*****. The alignments exist only as a stepping stone between the real ones.

If all the content were indeed opened up to "tourist" alignments, that would be one thing, but as it is, it's not just that there's an advantage to remaining a Hero/Villain, but the fact that that Vigilantes and Rogues don't have any advantages. I don't keep my characters pure for the Merits, I keep them pure because they're not worth wasting the effort to change.


 

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The fact that roughly half the players with an opinion seem to think heroes/villains have the advantage with alignment merits and the other half seems to think rogues/vigilantes have the advantage with on the fly side switching suggests to me the devs aimed at about the right spot in their respective benefits.
I don't think anywhere even close to half the players prefer grey alignments.

Quote:
I mean, look at the Statesman and Recluse Task/Strike Forces. You can get 2 Hamidon Enhancements in a day if you wish, along with being able to do any Task Force on any side.
I can get two Hamidon Enhancements a day without playing a grey alignment, and then mail them to any character I want.

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Alignment Merits are a very strong motivator... but they cannot be realistically attained on unlimited characters.
They can, and the SSA is making it even easier.

Quote:
Isn't the Alignment Merits argument a little bit obsolete now?
It is far more efficient to make your pruchases with Astral/Emp merits now than Alignment.
I'm already running those miserable trials more often than I want. If I had to do them to get set recipes I'd gnaw my arm off to escape.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture View Post
I don't think anywhere even close to half the players prefer grey alignments.
I do.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
IMO, Vigilantes and Rogues have it much worse than heroes and villains. If I want to do content on one side or the other, I can just use a different character. Considering I hate redside, I only have one or two villains anyway and see no need to give up the love that is hero merits just to spend time over in that hellhole.
I feel the same. Except where anything to do with villains or red-side appears, swap it. If I can avoid hero-side, I will.

Summary - alignment merits and 'pure' powers are much more useful to me than 'tourist' powers, particularly Frenzy. Oh, how I love that power (and seeing I rarely play hero-side, I'm not going to comment on the usefulness (?) of the hero equivalent)


 

Posted

There are players that like being able to play on both sides, and there are players that prefer to stick to one or the other, and both see benefits to doing what they like.

Neither one is right, and neither one is wrong.


Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impervious Fist View Post
Okay, they get Hero/Villain merits sure, but how is that really equal to being opened to twice as much content as someone who is able to get those merits?
To me, this is completely a non-issue. For the overwhelming majority of my characters, being able to access both sides is irrelevant. If I want to play on the other side, I can just switch characters. My badge hunter and a couple of tanks are grey alignment. For everyone else, why bother?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
This is the part I find funniest about the whole thing. The reward for being vigilante is you can go to rogue isles, but if you want to get vigilante style morality missions, you need to go back to PC.

Rogue and vigilante seem designed as speedbumps to switching sides completely, as there isn't a sustainable point where I can keep doing vigilante missions in the enemy's area.
It's not about the content on the opposite side; it's about flexibility. A Rogue is effectively a Villain who can cross over and team with Heroes. A Vigilante is effectively a Hero who can cross over and team with Villains.

Whether you prefer pure alignments or grey alignments comes down to personal preference. For me, it's a matter of time investment: I'll never be the kind of person who will regularly grind A-Merits on more than one character, so I park my Dominator (for whom Frenzy is perhaps more helpful than any Alignment Power on any other AT) in the Rogue Isles, and the rest of my characters eventually move grey so that I can choose to use them on most any team running most any content. (My time spent planning, earning for, and equipping builds is exposed to the broadest opportunity.)

Those who argue that they can play an alt to run with non-aligned teams certainly have a point. Those who prefer not to have to switch to an alt have a point, too. All in all, things seem pretty well balanced. It'd definitely be cool if the Rogue/Vigilante experience were deeper than it is, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by SlackTech View Post
I feel the same. Except where anything to do with villains or red-side appears, swap it. If I can avoid hero-side, I will.

Summary - alignment merits and 'pure' powers are much more useful to me than 'tourist' powers, particularly Frenzy. Oh, how I love that power (and seeing I rarely play hero-side, I'm not going to comment on the usefulness (?) of the hero equivalent)
The only level 50 I have that is a grey alignment is my rogue Bane Spider. That's only because I was tired of seeing hero side TFs recruiting all the time and being trapped in dirtyville!


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Posted

Arcanaville, will you marry me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I do.
Honeymoon time! It'll be all spreadsheets and simulations!

--NT


They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

 

Posted

Now that you can start any AT on any side, the novelty of being, say an Ill/Rad controller in the Isles or /nin stalker in Paragon City is pretty thin. I think to make them more attractive, they should create mission content that is exclusive to those alignments and maybe beef up the powers they get as well (although the vigilante power is pretty good).


 

Posted

Hey guys they are so well balanced I have a proposal!

We need to add a new AT. It will have the weakest powers in the game, and only be able to use trial zones.

However, it can get 10x inf and recipes every time it kills a mob, and buy HOs with inf.

EXCELLENT BALANCE


A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina View Post
Hey guys they are so well balanced I have a proposal!

We need to add a new AT. It will have the weakest powers in the game, and only be able to use trial zones.

However, it can get 10x inf and recipes every time it kills a mob, and buy HOs with inf.

EXCELLENT BALANCE
And what would this particular option be balanced against?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
And what would this particular option be balanced against?
The regular ATs...?

My point is that increased rewards, effectively almost doubling the value of any reward merits you get, and quintupling the value of signature story arcs, is not an effective way to pay for being able to enter additional zones.


A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina View Post
The regular ATs...?

My point is that increased rewards, effectively almost doubling the value of any reward merits you get, and quintupling the value of signature story arcs, is not an effective way to pay for being able to enter additional zones.
But who is paying what? It was said upstream that there is little benefit to being a rogue or vigilante because you can just switch to another alt on that side to play that content. But by the same token, I can make an alt whose sole purpose is to farm alignment merits. I don't have to be a hero or villain to get them, I just have to have one.

You're comparing specific benefits locked into a single archetype with the benefits that accrue to an alignment choice which is open to all characters. There are balancing requirements on different archetypes because there are balancing requirements placed on the opportunities available to characters, and archetype is not something you can change on a character. But alignment is a choice available to all characters, and furthermore its a choice that can be changed at any time with moderate effort. There is no specific requirement that all choices an individual character can make must provide the same quantitative rewards.


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Posted

Switching to an alt is a potential response to ANY balance criticism.

Switching faction is not an appropriate response because it takes 2 days minimum and costs a ton of merits anyway, compared to affirming faction twice. It also does not address the biggest reason to be native - merit conversion - because you have to stay native to do so at any large amount. In fact if you switch a lot it costs even more rewards.

The point is that if I want to run a TF for entertainment as a tourist, I'm getting half as many reward merits as a native, for the same task, even if that is a TF I can do natively. If I actually use the ability to enter another zone, another consideration is that it can be much harder to traverse zones and either the team is slower or they go ahead.

The point I made is not that we need a rewards AT but that rewards vs. access is apples and oranges. They don't balance just as combat effectiveness does not balance either.


A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina View Post
The point is that if I want to run a TF for entertainment as a tourist, I'm getting half as many reward merits as a native, for the same task, even if that is a TF I can do natively.
Uhhh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

It might be more accurate to say that you get half as much benefit from those merits, rather than half as many merits, but the basic idea is there: you get less reward for the same task.