Why play a Force Field now when there is Time Manipulation?
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2011-09-22 13:09 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I am absolutely in love with my forcefield defender, the one with all nine of his primary powers in his tray and used.
Detention field with a couple cheap +Mez Hami-Os locks down every AV I've tried it on up to and including Ghost Widow in the STF lieutenants fight. One shot, and the fight is that much easier. Romy doesn't beat on us with his sword while we burn down his angry puffballs. Riptide doesn't skewer us while we slaughter his pal. No one calls for air strikes while we chase that damn teleporting Duray around Skyway City.
The KB and Repel toggles are magic in BAFs. Not only does it keep the minion escapees milling around in confusion while they get mowed down, but it very clearly highlights the KB-proof lieutenants for especially angry doom. And Terra Volta trials have never been more dull. The only reason to actually kill the mobs 'attacking' the core (I'm told they attempt to hit it or something, but I've only run it on my FFer.) is to give yourself something to do.
Repulsion Bomb, in addition to doing as much damage as my defender's first blast in a nice-sized aoe, also knocks most of the mob off its feet (good-bye alpha strike) and stuns a good chunk of them. Paired with Psionic Tornado, only the very lucky enemies get a word in edgewise before they're dead. And it doesn't hurt that everyone it touches gets a healthy dose of Interface debuffing.
Forcebolt's usefulness has already been covered.
My forcefielder doesn't use every tool in his kit in every fight. I have a Kin if I want to start twitching like a child with ADHD and a twelve pack of Mt. Dew. However, there is no task I've encountered that my forcefielder can't make easier. And then he makes you unhittable and unmezzable because he's got some free time.
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Nemesis staff can't be enhanced for accuracy, takes *much* longer to recharge than force bolt, has a longer animation, and causes redraw (if that's relevant to your secondary). You aren't going to bounce a boss in the corner indefinitely with nemesis staff, and it's got a lot better chance to miss when you really need it. And IO accuracy/recharge bonuses (even assuming those affect nemesis staff, though I think they do) don't count, as powersets aren't balanced around those.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I could have done every one of the things you listed with my Nemesis Staff.
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@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
I will say FF is a bit boring and even being defense capped along with my Robots ( Robot FF MM ). I learned the hard way never to turn on force bubble during the last part of the RSF as it seems to get attention of all the baddies.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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IIRC only accuracy bonuses count. Aim, yellow insps, etc all affect Nemesis Staff and Sands of Mu and the others, damage insps and the damage part of Aim/Bu have no effect. I'm pretty sure recharge bonuses don't affect but by the time I have them I'm not using vet powers (at least sands, I just got the nem staff |
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
And IO accuracy/recharge bonuses (even assuming those affect nemesis staff, though I think they do) don't count, as powersets aren't balanced around those.
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).Anyway if I'm right and recharge doesn't affect it, you can't use it like Force Bolt even with a kin around you.
Btw, I like having a bubbler from 1 to 50, I don't usually softcap my toons except the defense based ones and my old fire/kin farmer. On my mind/emp for example who has a purpled build, but for recharge so I can buff and control more often, I welcome FF'ers. I think the problem is that I find the set too boring to play, and like Sonic, many people find that also, and that may be why they're not common, more than 'end game efficiency' or whatnot. Remember most players don't come to the forums and a lot use SOs/common IOs only at 50 so they wouldn't care about the set becoming less useful in incarnatey stuff as long as it's fun. Dual Pistols is terribad imo, but it's fun, so I play it. Peacebringers were worse than terribad imo, but I always found them entertaining, so I'm giving them another shot after the recent buff.
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Adding to this: in the Underground trial, you can cage the regenerating Lichens during the battle with the LIWW. That's a heck of an easy way to cut off some of it's regen. If you have two bubblers with DF, pull the LIWW to the corner, and it should be a relative breeze.
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Originally Posted by JelloMold
Detention field with a couple cheap +Mez Hami-Os locks down every AV I've tried it on up to and including Ghost Widow in the STF lieutenants fight. One shot, and the fight is that much easier. Romy doesn't beat on us with his sword while we burn down his angry puffballs. Riptide doesn't skewer us while we slaughter his pal. No one calls for air strikes while we chase that damn teleporting Duray around Skyway City.
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Would you go to college so you can work at McDonald's flipping the proverbial burgers?|
Originally Posted by MechaCrash
They shun it because it requires the user to not suck with it, and most people do.
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What I mean to say is, if the method you describe requires practice, care, precision, and the oft-misused "skill" to accomplish the same thing the path of least resistance (i.e. the "usual method") does, how can you blame people for wanting to go with the latter option? There are many people who believe this game starts at 50 (boy, what a departure from previous years. But I digress...) and with all of the "farming" (trials, etc) that "has to be done" to fully kit out a character, there aren't many who are willing to spend the time necessary to learn how to effectively use the tactics you allude to. Easier to roll up a class that levels fast or supports really well and jump into teams and do things "the right way" (i.e. the easiest way/the way it's always done/etc).
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
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Originally Posted by RemianenI
Would you go to college so you can work at McDonald's flipping the proverbial burgers?
What I mean to say is, if the method you describe requires practice, care, precision, and the oft-misused "skill" to accomplish the same thing the path of least resistance (i.e. the "usual method") does, how can you blame people for wanting to go with the latter option? There are many people who believe this game starts at 50 (boy, what a departure from previous years. But I digress...) and with all of the "farming" (trials, etc) that "has to be done" to fully kit out a character, there aren't many who are willing to spend the time necessary to learn how to effectively use the tactics you allude to. Easier to roll up a class that levels fast or supports really well and jump into teams and do things "the right way" (i.e. the easiest way/the way it's always done/etc). |
I think this is well said, although I would take it a step further: even at this level of expertise, you still end up worse off than if you went the so-called "easy" route. This is why I want to see a video showing an "expert" rocking the knockback in this set, and why I am so skeptical that a video exists.
I am not someone who doesn't play FF. I have two of them. I said earlier in the thread there are reasons to play them. But I do think they need a buff. I also don't elect to play my FFers unstrategically. The knockback powers may be situationally okay, but they are not better than the alternative powers you could have put there. Especially not when you can get a very similar knockback power free of build cost.
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Well I think this is where a lot of the problem comes in. There's a lot of things you can do with knockback but it's not necessarily better. Equal in some cases but often an easier option works just as well. I personally like the feel of using a set like FF but I know that the game rewards building well vastly more than it rewards actually playing well.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think this is well said, although I would take it a step further: even at this level of expertise, you still end up worse off than if you went the so-called "easy" route. This is why I want to see a video showing an "expert" rocking the knockback in this set, and why I am so skeptical that a video exists.
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You say gather? I just get in the biggest group of the team and cast it when I feel ready too |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not to mention, isn't Time Manipulation a rather busy set? FF is pretty simple and straight forward: cast bubbles, stand by squishy and play.
With Time, do you not have to make sure to call your team so that everyone is in range of the +def? Then you're casting a ST debuff that makes your other debuffs better, then casting a ST buff that makes your buffs better, then heals and more buffs/debuffs... I figure, that bubbler will be tagging along behind your time, shooting stuff and keeping you from getting mezzed while your time is busy trying to 'outclass' him, ultimately making *their* job easier (is that possible?) but your job more tedious? |
To the OP...FF is less busy, comes with Mez Protection, and offers more Defense to the team than a Time Manip user does (DB + Bubbles = More Defense). I think this goes along with using PBU along with Farsight, but even if not true, that shouldn't be the case, as not every Time Manip user is going to use Power Mastery or Soul Mastery (I'm using PBU right now, but as soon as I get red side, Im switching to Leviathan Mastery myself).
Time Manip is also a "Want to take all powers now set."
Plenty of reasons to consider rolling a FFer, besides Concept.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Uh, wait, you take out the puffballs instead of Rommy? Rommy is overall easier to kill. Not to mention there is no reward for defeating the puffballs and there is for Rommy, who will kill one of the puffballs for you each time you defeat him if you maintain LOS between Rommy and the puffball...|
Originally Posted by JelloMold
Detention field with a couple cheap +Mez Hami-Os locks down every AV I've tried it on up to and including Ghost Widow in the STF lieutenants fight. One shot, and the fight is that much easier. Romy doesn't beat on us with his sword while we burn down his angry puffballs.
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Now Detention Fielding one of the puffballs i could see, but Rommy himself?
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
However, what really stands out about FF is that most of its powers are not buffs. They are attacks and control powers. They are just so awful that the set has become known for its buffs only. Force Field actually has exactly as many offensive powers as Cold Domination and Time Manipulation. By its rights Force Field should be a clicky set. It just isn't because the game has never gotten serious about making knockback, intangible, or repel legitimately desirable in mass quantities versus what you could get by just using a Nemesis Staff temp power.
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I posted this over on the other thread first, and then came back here and read your post. I couldn't agree more, obviously.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Deflection shield: +16.66% resistance to -defense debuffs
[etc....] |
These are good ideas, esp. the Def Resistance. I personally would like to see powers in FF that no one takes addressed also. In particular, Detention Field and Repulsion Field.
Detention Field: While being "out of phase" is a cool concept, in practice players (esp. teammates) seem to hate it. Change this to a 4.7 Mag Hold, straight up. No other changes needed.
Repulsion Field: This one is harder, because I don't just want to make it like every other power out there, but I think a slow movement, slow recharge, and a small -def debuff PBAoE Toggle would be a thematic changes. Instead of being thrown about, targets are hindered by the lines of force you produce! The -End per enemy hit will have to go away, but the base endurance cost could be increased.
I'd also like to see FF get "the stalker treatment." Add a small, unmodifiable, and unresistible debuff to some of the powers. This is a different idea than the debuffs you mention, so I think it would have to be one or the other.
Detention Field: -5% Recharge, unresistible (and doesn't depend on the Mag hitting).
Repulsion Field: -5% Defense, unresistable
Repulsion Bomb: -10% Resistance, unresistable
Force Bubble: -5% Damage, unresistable
Or there abouts, not sure if the numbers make sense.
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If you had all puffballs phased out when rommy dies, can he target one to self-rez? And if not, do you get stuck in the TF or win it with only one kill?|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Uh, wait, you take out the puffballs instead of Rommy? Rommy is overall easier to kill. Not to mention there is no reward for defeating the puffballs and there is for Rommy, who will kill one of the puffballs for you each time you defeat him if you maintain LOS between Rommy and the puffball...
Now Detention Fielding one of the puffballs i could see, but Rommy himself? |
Or does he rez without killing one and then you got to get him one extra time?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
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Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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You can hit multiple enemies with it?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I could have done every one of the things you listed with my Nemesis Staff.
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You can slot Nemesis Staff for Accuracy?
You can get Nemeis Staff to recharge as fast?
YOu can get knockback protection (3 points) from Nemesis Staff?
You can proc Nemesis Staff for a chance for recharge, or more smashing damage, or build up, hold, heal, negative energy damage, etc?
No?
And "Videos or it didn't happen?" Really? Nothing I posted is impossible, or even that big of a stretch of the imagination. I'm not soloing a level 54 AV with just Force Bolt - that sort of thing would logically have people requesting proof. *Nothing* I posted should be the least bit surprising.
If I was going to keep Force Bolt around as is-ish it would get a -5% resistance debuff stackable up to 5 times and a 20% chance of unresistable knockback. Say hi to the floor, Archvillains. There would have to be some way to ensure the power didn't blow Hamidon and the like backwards. But I think it would be completely fair if a Force Fielder occasionally sent Lord Recluse flying backward on his butt. One of FFs hugest problems is that few times you would actually want to blow something off its feet it is completely immune. The purple triangles doesn't cut it because like nearly everywhere else in the game, mezzes are better.
Another thing I've been thinking is that a few of the less powerful sets should have a way to detoggle purple triangles for a few extra seconds. I think that maybe should be a Stalker thing though.
I made my new Force Field/Beam Rifle Defender specifically to irritate the forum trolls. You know, those players who insist that every other player must conform to their strategies and their beliefs concerning a video game, or else be ridiculed for trying something beyond the status quo.
What's really funny is, I'm actually enjoying my FF/BR Defender more than my Illusion/Time Controller. So stick that in your calculator and go figure.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And "Videos or it didn't happen?" Really? Nothing I posted is impossible, or even that big of a stretch of the imagination. I'm not soloing a level 54 AV with just Force Bolt - that sort of thing would logically have people requesting proof. *Nothing* I posted should be the least bit surprising.
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I'm saying show me a video with something impressive in it that illustrates definitively why you are so against a buff to this set. Your glowing praise of Force Field's knockback stands completely at odds with anything I have ever actually witnessed, and the things you listed as benefits are IMO parlor tricks. I have seen decent-ish things done with Storm, but the two are not directly comparable. I have occasionally needed to knock an enemy backwards Force Bolt style but never felt pressured to do it constantly or to give up dps or control animation time just to keep doing it in succession.
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I'm a little wary of the idea of buffing others with Def Resistance. On one hand, it would certainly set FF apart from other sets that can buff defense and it would make the set desirable to have around even for Armor sets that are capping themselves with IO's but have little Def Resistance. It's really a tough call to make.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
These are good ideas, esp. the Def Resistance. I personally would like to see powers in FF that no one takes addressed also. In particular, Detention Field and Repulsion Field.
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| Detention Field: While being "out of phase" is a cool concept, in practice players (esp. teammates) seem to hate it. Change this to a 4.7 Mag Hold, straight up. No other changes needed. |
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Repulsion Field: This one is harder, because I don't just want to make it like every other power out there, but I think a slow movement, slow recharge, and a small -def debuff PBAoE Toggle would be a thematic changes. Instead of being thrown about, targets are hindered by the lines of force you produce! The -End per enemy hit will have to go away, but the base endurance cost could be increased. I'd also like to see FF get "the stalker treatment." Add a small, unmodifiable, and unresistible debuff to some of the powers. This is a different idea than the debuffs you mention, so I think it would have to be one or the other. Detention Field: -5% Recharge, unresistible (and doesn't depend on the Mag hitting). Repulsion Field: -5% Defense, unresistable Repulsion Bomb: -10% Resistance, unresistable Force Bubble: -5% Damage, unresistable Or there abouts, not sure if the numbers make sense. |
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Oooh! I've not tried that |
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
Time Manipulation characters can't enable a toggle power that automatically repels all nearby baddies, and then set a Brute or Scrapper to auto-follow.
'Nuff said. |
*mad cackle*
*runs off to log in to FF characters*
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
My main money maker is a Grav/FF/Psi Controller. Controllers benifit a lot from FF. People giggle when I tell them this.
The thing about FF is not how the set works, it's essentially what you need from it, and what you need from it is minimal and paired with Gravity which also has wonderfully skippable powers, I had more freedom to slot what I did use and pools which made me a defensive monster.
FF depends on what you pair it with and how you plan on actually using the powers.
Personal Forcefield alone has saved me and my team many times, because I can make the escape and then TP people to a safer location during team wipes. Aid other ensures that, and I am generally unhittable.
The powers you need in FF are simple
Personal FF
The two Team shields
Dispersion Bubble
And Force Bubble
Thats it...nothing more. Thats all I use. Force Bolt is not needed. Repulsion bomb is not worth it. Repulsion field is not worth it.
I know I am not helping the idea that FF is not better than Time, what I am saying is that it has skippables...which frees up slots and power picks. Which in some ways makes it quite desirable.
There's no game mechanical reason, no. The only thing FF has going for it is incomplete mez protection from the dispersion bubble. KD, KB and some highly situational gimmicks don't hold a candle to huge permable recharge bonuses, AoE -res, a smattering of controls, heals and the ability to softcap every position. Even if time manip doesn't exist, forcefields has long been overshadowed by better, more versatile powersets e.g. Cold.
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Show me where I've said that. Go on. Find me a quote saying "No, Force Fields is absolutely perfect and doesn't need a buff." I'm saying I *find it quite useful as is." IE, "No, it's not useless like some people want to paint it." |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm saying show me a video with something impressive in it that illustrates definitively why you are so against a buff to this set.
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I'd say I'll wait for you to find that quote about me being against a buff, but it'd be like waiting to spontaneously turn blue with yellow diamonds containing pink leprechaun hats. You asked for examples of people using knockback powers as part of their "long term" (which I read as 1-50) strategy. I gave you *precisely what I do.* No mention one way or the other of any opinion of buffs, for or against. Just WHAT I DO.
Your alternative is to say "I'm sorry, I must have misread or gotten you confused with somebody else, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth." After all, even though I find a set useful, why would I argue *against* a buff that doesn't DEcrease or eliminate current usefulness?
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| Your glowing praise of Force Field's knockback stands completely at odds with anything I have ever actually witnessed, and the things you listed as benefits are IMO parlor tricks. |
And do tell me how the benefits I listed (such as slotting for accuracy or proccing - things that are seen as *beneficial* in other powers) are "parlor tricks." I wasn't aware knockdown protection was gotten for *laughs* instead of, oh, not being knocked down.
What I *AM* against is nose-in-the-spreadsheet whining about "OMG, why is this set even around still, it sucks, I see no point to it, everyone should love having ALL shielding sets playing almost the exact same way, why would anyone roll this!" posts.
What I'm seeing from you in part, though, is a subtext that I see a fair bit from people - namely, "Knockback sucks!" And every time I hear that, the examples I tend to hear point not toward Knockback sucking - but towards someone using knockback poorly. (IE, "So they hop in the middle of the spawn and send everything flying!" or "So melee has to chase it down.") I've seen tanks without taunt or offense built as a "healer" (yeah, that's painful to think of.) But I don't point at that and go "Tanks suck!" I point at that and say "Bad player." Knockback, for whatever reason, isn't deemed worthy of the same consideration - it's not "That was a bad player, they kept KBing the tank's target," it's "Knockback sucks and is never useful."
If someone's targeting through the tank and using force bolt (for instance,) or hopping in right beside them with Repulsion Field on, yes, I *WILL* say "They're doing it wrong." But the times people are "doing it right" (since it's *helping* the team) tend not to be commented on, since they don't stick out.
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Yes, the devs have added situations in which FF's lesser powers are genuinely, non-ambiguously useful, but the examples given are all (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) from high-level and end-game content ... and Detention Field opens up early.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Adding to this: in the Underground trial, you can cage the regenerating Lichens during the battle with the LIWW. That's a heck of an easy way to cut off some of it's regen. If you have two bubblers with DF, pull the LIWW to the corner, and it should be a relative breeze.
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IME, it says something about how situational Force Bubble and Detention Field really are that the devs have to add specific content tailored to make these powers look good (and, honestly, there IS a dev post from a few months back promising to make rarely used powers useful in the trials). IME, the devs have never sat back and said, "Damn, we gotta add some content to make people take Tar Patch ..."
And we're talking about fewer than a dozen missions in a game with thousands.
I think it also speaks to how unwilling the devs are to change powers in FF that they've taken the surprising step of designing content with Force Bubble and Detention Field in mind. It would have been, IME, just as easy, and far more beneficial to players, to change the powers to make them more widely useful at the levels they're granted.
Anyway ... I actually think FF's performance is thoroughly mediocre. Not great, not awful, just somewhere in-between. Especially if you consider how well FF can perform with three powers, Maneuvers, and 10 additional slots.
FF is, honestly, filled with some awful design decisions. It was designed for a game with a heavy, single target tactical focus (Poison, single target Taunt, teammates share aggro on the lieuts and minions, keeping mobs at distance by any means possible = defense, Force Bubble used to be tied for the title of most end-heavy toggle, etc.). But the devs have backed off from many of those design decisions. And they haven't, IIRC, added a single repel power since release. No cages since I5 (Sonic) -- even when they've released sets, like time, where a cage would be thematically appropriate. And they even cottaged one melee version of Repulsion Field. And yet they left FF's core functionality unchanged while adding in content to let bubblers swing some pipe for about .1% of the game's content.
I'd rather have moderately useful all the time than OMG amazing every few hundred missions. But it ain't gonna happen.
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The examples I gave earlier are not. They're what I use 1-50. (Or at least power-availability-level to 50.) |
Originally Posted by BurningChick
Yes, the devs have added situations in which FF's lesser powers are genuinely, non-ambiguously useful, but the examples given are all (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) from high-level and end-game content ... and Detention Field opens up early.
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| And they haven't, IIRC, added a single repel power since release. |
And in another odd-selection, Repulse (recently changed) from Stalker energy aura.
They've added them, just not in ways that actually made sense. (Really, who ARE you going to put an ally-only Repel toggle on? This is one I've *tried* to come up with a scenario to use, and really can't.)
Short on time, Bill, but ...
I was replying to other posts where people mentioned detaining entities that buff AVs, the early Incarnate TF where you can use Force Bubble to push away the dots o' death, etc. Those places? Yeah, FF shines. Your examples? Other powers sub in reasonably well.
Sonic Repulsion, Repulsion Field, Repulse, etc. are KB, not repel. The game only has, IIRC, three repel powers (Hurricane, Force Bubble, TK).
I played a lvl 50 TM defender and looked at all it could do. Not for one single second did I say to myself "Why would I want to play my two Forcefielders now?"
The concept is what it is and if you don't like the KB powers that are there then there is alway Power Build Up to keep the set as useful as if the KB powers were there.
I went FF/Energy with one, I got plenty of Knock in my toon. I dislike Tanking for people who wrecklessly Kb, I like to make the Kb work.
I'd have issues if I thought FF didn't bring enough to a team, but it does for me, all the powers look conceptually correct and its hard not to completely recreate a Susan Storm.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.