Discussion: Deprecating support for Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard - 9/22/11
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Posted on: 2011-09-22 10:58 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I'm just glad I stopped using the Mac client.
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Hm. Was this the only notice that today would be that day? If so, that seems really sucktastic for people who might have been affected.
I remember some mention that this would happen eventually, but I am not a Mac user, so I don't recall if there was any mention of a cutoff date.
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Well, I wouldn't actually worry over much about this - after all, for quite some time, Windows Vista and Windows 7 weren't "officially" supported - and XP, IIRC, isn't "officially" supported outside of some business licenses any longer from MS.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hm. Was this the only notice that today would be that day? If so, that seems really sucktastic for people who might have been affected.
I remember some mention that this would happen eventually, but I am not a Mac user, so I don't recall if there was any mention of a cutoff date. |
I am a Mac user, and I also am still using Leopard. And considering this is the first notice we are getting, that really sucks!
Having said that, as long as I can still play the game until I get my hands on Snow Leopard or Lion, I won't take too much issue with this. I will simply request that announcements like this be made a little further in advance next time...
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Most Mac Users are aware of Apple discontinuing official support for 10.5. Unfortunately, the resultant effect is that we're no longer receiving development support on our end for any issues encountered with 10.5, a truism I would venture to guess is the same for Transgaming.
There is, of course, the possibility that users with 10.5 will continue to be able to play COH, however we cannot officially offer support for 10.5.
To Apple's credit, they do make their upgrades quite affordable. Something like $30.00 USD for registered versions.
- Z
edited - updated with the correct price of Mac OS upgrade
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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All game companies doing live product with ongoing development will probably deprecate support for Leopard.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
I am a Mac user, and I also am still using Leopard. And considering this is the first notice we are getting, that really sucks!
Having said that, as long as I can still play the game until I get my hands on Snow Leopard or Lion, I won't take too much issue with this. I will simply request that announcements like this be made a little further in advance next time... |
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Seriously?! You only give same day notice about no longer supporting a version of the OS that is still in general use and is in use by your player base??! This feels very much like dropping your XP customers without any prior notice (...you haven't done that, right? Not trying to be funny, I seriously don't know, though I doubt it).
I thought after this whole mess with the the Mac version of the Beta client, you would be a little more considerate in regards to your Mac players.
I sincerely hope that the game won't stop working under 10.5 right aways, as it did briefly during the Freedom update because someone wrote a 10.6 minimum requirement into one of the pref files. If that is the case people should have at least some time to decided if they want to upgrade and to implement that update.
I run 10.5.8 on the Mac I play COH on. It worked fine with the Freedom upgrade. I doubt that I will rush to upgrade that machine for a game.
I've been here as a paying customer since day 1, and I can say the last couple of month have been the most frustrating ever.
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Actually, I suspect most Mac users aren't aware of Apple discontinuing official support for 10.5.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Most Mac Users are aware of Apple discontinuing official support for 10.5. Unfortunately, the resultant effect is that we're no longer receiving development support on our end for any issues encountered with 10.5, a truism I would venture to guess is the same for Transgaming.
There is, of course, the possibility that users with 10.5 will continue to be able to play COH, however we cannot officially offer support for 10.5. To Apple's credit, they do make their upgrades quite affordable. Something like $30.00 USD for registered versions. |
Ending support for 10.5 isn't unreasonable, so long as you don't arbitrarily block ability to use it - every Intel Mac (only ones that run CoH) can run Snow Leopard, the cost isn't excessive. But the way this was handled stinks.
#1 - Announced during the maintenance where it ends support? Bad form. From your statement above, it seems like you knew you weren't getting support any more, so could have explained earlier.
#2 - If you can explain just what that means, would be good. Is it just "Hey, I'm getting odd crashes on my Mac with 10.5.x" means you get no answer? Or will you be blocking access to the game for those using 10.5.x? If it's the latter, completely unacceptable without a lot of notice.
The bigger issue, of course, is what about the future. I have a Mac that is incapable of running 10.7 (Lion) and a PC that, if it can run Windows 7, won't run it well. Will I someday hear "As of today, no more gaming for XP/Snow Leopard players"?
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All it should mean is that they won't patch or troubleshoot issues specific to that version of the operating system.
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
#2 - If you can explain just what that means, would be good. Is it just "Hey, I'm getting odd crashes on my Mac with 10.5.x" means you get no answer? Or will you be blocking access to the game for those using 10.5.x? If it's the latter, completely unacceptable without a lot of notice.
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I would note that anyone upgrading from Leopard to Snow Leopard or Lion should be a little careful, as it's a shift from 32bit to 64bit. Some apps might not work in the newer system.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To Apple's credit, they do make their upgrades quite affordable. Something like $30.00 USD for registered versions. - Z edited - updated with the correct price of Mac OS upgrade |
I have checked the City of Heroes applications for Live and Beta, as well as the NCSoft Launcher application, for Mac. All of them currently *require* a minimum of 10.5.7.
The lack of support means that if you have a problem running the client that's unique to 10.5, you'll be asked to update to Snow Leopard (10.6) or Lion (10.7). It also means that the next Mac client or NCSoft Launcher may not support 10.5 in the future.
So really, the warning from Paragon means there will be no *future* support for 10.5. It was, however, phrased badly and unfortunately placed on a maintenance day in order to cause maximum panic. There's no reason to panic, though. You have plenty of time to upgrade to 10.6.
P.S. Unofficially, from my Guide:
Q. Should I upgrade to Leopard or Snow Leopard?
A. Snow Leopard is your best bet for future support from both Paragon Studios and from Apple.
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Yeah the Mac client is so bad it hurts. I played for 3 hours on it (using Lion) and it closed on me three times. Then I rebooted in Win 7, did two extensive play sessions (about 8 hours each), no freezing, no closing whatsoever - and apparently they think Bootcamp is an entirely new system since it's not 'officially supported', been using it with winXP/win7 since 2006 for CoX mainly.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
I'm just glad I stopped using the Mac client.
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The time for Windows XP is already coming close... in just over 2 years Microsoft will not even be issuing security updates for it. Already there is *no* free help either, you have to pay for the tech help from M$ for it.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
The bigger issue, of course, is what about the future. I have a Mac that is incapable of running 10.7 (Lion) and a PC that, if it can run Windows 7, won't run it well. Will I someday hear "As of today, no more gaming for XP/Snow Leopard players"?
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Now, on the flip side, i am not sure as to *when* the support ends for Mac Os X 10.5 (i tried googling, but for once my google-fu was weak), but developers probably recieved an email telling/confirming that the support would be ending soon...
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I'm currently running Snow Leopard in 32 bit (by necessity, don't have a 64 bit processor). And in theory, the OS can shift for apps between 32 bit and 64 bit apis based on a setting in the app's info.plist|
Originally Posted by Tawny
I would note that anyone upgrading from Leopard to Snow Leopard or Lion should be a little careful, as it's a shift from 32bit to 64bit. Some apps might not work in the newer system.
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Actually, I've thought it over, and the answer doesn't really make sense for me. I've spent most of my professional life writing programs for Apple computers, starting with the Apple II in 1977, the initial Mac release in 1984, up through Snow Leopard in 2009 when I shifted careers. So why doesn't this work for me?
(1) In all those years, no developer I ever knew expected Apple to fix a prior version of the OS. In theory, if you found a huge crashing bug that could destroy someone's hard disk, might be worth reporting and if it's soon after the release of new version they might do an upgrade. And recently, some security fixes would get done for back versions. But every developer knew that if there was a call not working right in an older version, the choices were work your way around that call, or tell the customers "You need to update to current".
(2) While Apple's online documentation has generally been good (barring a few periods where they dropped the ball), direct support from Apple as a developer unless you worked for Microsoft, Adobe, or a couple others has always been pretty spotty and lacking. There have been forums where developers help each other, developers would make friends with people at Apple to go around the system. But even under the paid system, the number of "support events" were very limited and rarely helpful.
So, Apple's decision that they won't be supporting Leopard any more is pretty much a non-issue, because the difference in support to developers between Leopard and Snow Leopard is vanishingly small. Yes, that decision has an implication for consumers - you may run into security issues that don't get fixed, any official Apple software may not run on Leopard any more (like iTunes). But when I switched to web stuff, most developers would support Tiger on Intel machines (which was only the standard for a few months), and many would also support the PPC macs and older OSes back to Jaguar (10.2).
Now, there are reasons to cut off older support. Because Paragon relies so heavily on Transgaming, Transgaming may have declared they won't support Leopard anymore. It is a pain developing for three different versions of the OS and a major pain to support that many. Also, Snow Leopard included a number of backend changes, introducing some nice new powerful APIs and providing cleaner and more functional replacements for old calls. It's possible to write code that checks the OS and run different code based on which OS you're on, but that's painful, results in unclean code harder to debug, and so one tends to use the oldest API in most cases even if there's a better call in the newer one. That's why a company will cut off older support, or say "Download this version for Snow Leopard/Lion, download that older version for Leopard and earlier" - and in a constantly updated system like CoH that approach won't fly. So Paragon or Transgaming may have made the call of "we're done with Leopard support"
But those are decisions you make over time. Giving you time to give people a heads up, and either upgrade or at least not dumping money into microtransaction costs just before you lose access. And those decisions aren't made because "Apple isn't supporting Leopard any more"
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From FB:
the upgrades may be cheaper, but not everybody can run Snow Leopard. I didn't purchase it for that reason, but my PPC is stuck at the OS9/Leopard dual boot. that said, all this means is that should the game need to be modified to retain com...patibility with Snow leopard in such a way that it becomes no longer compatible with leopard, then a major upgrade would be in order on the user's part. Since apple has chosen the intel path, then I highly doubt that there is going to be a point (soon) that the game will become totally incompatible.
It boils down to that the Mac version of this game isn't a Mac version of this game but the Windows version wrapped in an OS emulation layer from Transgaming. Now if Transgaming can't officially support it any longer due to Apple not supporting 10.5 any longer, then there isn't a whole lot that Paragon Studios can do.
It's like when they dropped support for Windows 98SE and ME but at least this time they are a bit more up front about it.
As for the timing, it's a case of waiting for Transgaming to get the official word from Apple that no help is coming. It's not like Apple has an active relationship with a lot of mainstream gaming companies and native ports to the Mac are few and rarely mainstream or in sync with a PC or console release.
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No. What they're saying is that, in all likelihood, you'll be able to continue to play CoH on 10.5 for a while. But, if/when it eventually breaks, they can't help you.|
Originally Posted by Xenos
Seriously?! You only give same day notice about no longer supporting a version of the OS that is still in general use and is in use by your player base??! This feels very much like dropping your XP customers without any prior notice (...you haven't done that, right? Not trying to be funny, I seriously don't know, though I doubt it).
I thought after this whole mess with the the Mac version of the Beta client, you would be a little more considerate in regards to your Mac players. I sincerely hope that the game won't stop working under 10.5 right aways, as it did briefly during the Freedom update because someone wrote a 10.6 minimum requirement into one of the pref files. If that is the case people should have at least some time to decided if they want to upgrade and to implement that update. I run 10.5.8 on the Mac I play COH on. It worked fine with the Freedom upgrade. I doubt that I will rush to upgrade that machine for a game. I've been here as a paying customer since day 1, and I can say the last couple of month have been the most frustrating ever. |
And the reason they can't help you is that Apple won't help them OR Transgaming. Their assistance will consist of seven words, "have them upgrade to the current version".
They're letting you know now, most likely, because Apple finally just told them this in the last day or so.
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Originally Posted by WanderingAries
From FB:
the upgrades may be cheaper, but not everybody can run Snow Leopard. I didn't purchase it for that reason, but my PPC is stuck at the OS9/Leopard dual boot. that said, all this means is that should the game need to be modified to retain com...patibility with Snow leopard in such a way that it becomes no longer compatible with leopard, then a major upgrade would be in order on the user's part. Since apple has chosen the intel path, then I highly doubt that there is going to be a point (soon) that the game will become totally incompatible. |
Hey Aries,
I was curious, how old is your Mac? My MacBook Pro is approaching 4, and it runs everything including the game fine. Will probably upgrade to Lion sooner or later. Your Mac must be a bit older than that. I think that's awesome you can still run the game. I have a PC that's 8 years old, and I laugh at the idea of running COH on it. Just saying...
Found a bootdisk for Snow Leopard, updating today. Still a little annoyed considering, while running Leopard, I never encountered the problems posted by Snow Leopard users. In fact, Leopard ran the program surprisingly smoothly. But I have yet to actually try the program on Snow Leopard yet, so I could be worrying over nothing.
Still debating whether or not to just fork over the $30 for Lion and be "up-to-date" so to speak.
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If it's a PPC machine, it can't run CoH anyway. CoH is only playable on Macs with Intel processors, and I've got one of the very first intel Macs released and have no trouble with Snow Leopard.
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Originally Posted by WanderingAries
From FB:
the upgrades may be cheaper, but not everybody can run Snow Leopard. I didn't purchase it for that reason, but my PPC is stuck at the OS9/Leopard dual boot. that said, all this means is that should the game need to be modified to retain com...patibility with Snow leopard in such a way that it becomes no longer compatible with leopard, then a major upgrade would be in order on the user's part. Since apple has chosen the intel path, then I highly doubt that there is going to be a point (soon) that the game will become totally incompatible. |
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Quote:
Most but not all. I wasnt aware of Apple not supporting 10.5.X, and while i cant blame NCSoft/Paragon Studios for not supporting what is now going to be an outdated OS, i have to agree.... bad form for telling us day of. sucks that as a VIP I feel less than that with this kind of notice. And would hate even more to continue paying for a game i cant play, but then stop paying for a game wil penalize me with this new rewards system... sigh.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Most Mac Users are aware of Apple discontinuing official support for 10.5. Unfortunately, the resultant effect is that we're no longer receiving development support on our end for any issues encountered with 10.5, a truism I would venture to guess is the same for Transgaming.
There is, of course, the possibility that users with 10.5 will continue to be able to play COH, however we cannot officially offer support for 10.5. To Apple's credit, they do make their upgrades quite affordable. Something like $30.00 USD for registered versions. - Z edited - updated with the correct price of Mac OS upgrade |
I wonder if my MAC can support the upgrade for Snow Leopard... i got mine mid 2008...
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by Teeko
I wonder if my MAC can support the upgrade for Snow Leopard... i got mine mid 2008...
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FYI for those who are interested: The drop of support of Leopard may be because the newest Xcode might no longer include API support for 10.5.
It becomes too difficult to keep around an older Mac running an older OS just for the purpose of compiling a Leopard compatible version. Some developers do this (you'll see a separate Leopard version for download on their site) but but it does make things difficult.
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Honestly I think this is a case of bad wording rather than anything else.
All this means is if you have a problem they can't help you unless you are running 10.6 or higher. Admittedly they may change the system in the future so it can't even run on 10.5 but I don't think that's right now.
As an aside, I run CoH on my Macbook Air (2nd ed, the dual core version, not the i3\5) and it runs on Lion perfectly. Or at least no worse than CoH runs on a PC as far as I can tell. 
As a 2nd aside, as long as your Mac is Intel based you should have no problem running Snow Leopard. I have Snow Leopard installed on an original Macbook with no issues. I wouldn't want to run CoH on it mind, but that's just a minimum spec issue.
Due to Apple no longer supporting Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, we are unable to continue supporting that specific Mac Operating System.
As of today, after the end of the maintenance, the Mac system requirements for official support from the City of Heroes team are Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard and Mac OS X 10.7 Lion.
Thank you for your understanding.
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