Swing and miss... which story arcs are most in need of revamp or outright removal?


Arilou

 

Posted

every single "go defeat x of x"

seriously those filler pieces of horriblness need to be dumped fast.


 

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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
Television is the most defensible of them: it's a god. A young and very powerful god. You made the mistake of looking into the trap, and now you're mind controlled. This would be a loathesomely awful arc if it weren't for the non-stop supply of spot-on pop culture jokes -- those jokes are the only reason anybody tolerates this.
See, the Television arc pissed me off even more than Dr. Graves the one and only time I ran it, and I think I know why. Two reasons:

1. I'm not American, and thus know next to nothing about American pop culture. I've seen a grand total of five episodes of the Simpsons, not a single one of Family guy, only the one South Park movie, I have not seen American idol, Big Brother or anything of the like, I only know Fox News in name, I haven't seen almost any original American commercials, I don't know what your newspaers, magazines and television shows say, I didn't learn there was anything to be said about Charlie Sheen until recently and I still don't know what that's all about, I know the name of Oprah Winfrey, but I don't know who she is or what she does, I've seen Mtv twice in my life back when they were still showing Daria and Beavis and Butthead and I was seven years old... Need I go on? I don't get American pop culture, so I don't get American pop culture references, so I can't appreciate what humour the Television arc might have and I'm only left with a lazy mind control plot that offends my senses.

2. There's room for a much, much, MUCH more interesting story with the Television than dropping in references about a man watching TV with a clown, which I assume is a reference to the Simpsons. In one of the arcs, you can see the image distort, break up into static and appear as though there is another image and voice hidden beneath the picture you are seeing. As though some kind of tangible cosmic intellect is hijacking the airwaves and hiding in our boradcasts, arranging pixels and frequencies of sound to fool our minds into seeing and hearing things that aren't actually what's on the screen. For just a moment, I felt like a genuine fictional story with an actual plot was going to be told. And then it just ended. No mystery, no resolution, no reason. Just a trite "TV. IS. WEIRD!" rhetoric as if straight from a moral guardian's mouth about "One Nation Controlled By The Media," which I honestly find offensive to my intelligence (the story AND the song in the link).

All in all, the Television is the perfect storm of things I hate in an arc. It's offensive to my character's intelligence by having him mind-controlled, used, abused and discarded with no gain whatsoever and thinking like an abuse victim, it trades narrative for pop culture references I'm never going to get, and it trades a potentially interesting, mysterious plot for the most basic, most generic kind of unnecessary life lesson. To be honest, this is probably my least favourite arc IN THE ENTIRE GAME, with Dr. Graves being a VERY close second and Westin Phipps a close third.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Well, I can tell you this about the Television arcs: they're already aging badly. I'm roughly Melissa Bianco's age, I think, or anyway roughly the same age as the person who wrote this. So when they quote early Simpsons, when they quote Babylon 5, when they quote Mystery Science Theater 3000, when they refer to the controversy over when MTV stopped playing music videos, when they quote UHF (!!!) reruns of Dragnet and Leave it to Beaver, I get it.

Not one person in 100, born after 1961 or so, is going to get half of those jokes.

City of Heroes skews old, I gather; I get the impression that the average CoH player is probably around age 30. But that means that to the average City of Heroes player, they're making jokes about television series, all but maybe one of which (American Idol) went off the air before that average CoH player was born. No matter what country they were born or grew up in. And that's going to be more true, every day, the longer arc stays there.

They could rewrite Television's arc every couple of years, replace the Babylon 5 joke with a Battlestar Galactica reboot joke, replace the Simpsons joke with a How I Met Your Mother joke, and so forth. But they're not going to. So, as much as old guys like me love that arc, sooner or later it's going to have to go.


 

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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
Huh. People are really down on Roy Cooling. I'm normally pretty critical but I enjoyed Roy, primarily because his arc addressed part of the reality of living in a town where there are "haves" and "have-nots" and people begin to ask why those inequities exist.
I like Roy's arc a lot. It has varied gameplay, unique (or seldom-used) maps, a fun finale, and some idea that power has consequences. I try to run it whenever I have a character in that level range, like I do with Freakalympics and Keith Nance's arc. Wheel of Destruction, not so much; it's not terrible, but it could use some freshening up. There must be some other arcs in the 20s, but they aren't springing to mind right now, which suggests that they could be looked at for spicing up.


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Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
The other problem, particularly with the old hero arcs, and particularly at the lower levels, is that the contacts themselves are banal. Arcs like Ubelmann, which was mentioned above, are great in concept, but less so in execution, just because they have to be written in a way that one of the people involved can be one of around five completely unique individuals. Streamlining the contact system and adding in a little more personal flavor would be nice. Even when arcs are given out by unique contacts, some of them are just...written boring. Maxwell Christopher is a notable exception, but Tina and Unai, for example, just sorta read like briefings, not like characters.
What you call banal, I call unobtrusive. Contacts with strong personalities have a way of making me feel like I'm just playing an adjunct to their story. Contacts should be Commissioner Gordon to my Batman, and how much personality does Commissioner Gordon really need?

Anyway, the five arcs I would most want to see reworked and/or dropped:

- Origin of Power. The only arc I've ever finished and said "Okay, I'm never doing that again."

- To Save a Thousand Worlds. A cool idea, but the limited maps and enemies and sheer repetitiveness kill the potential fun in a dimension-hopping storyline.

- The Tsoo arcs. Overstuffed, overpadded, and it's been years and would it kill the devs to let us actually #$&()% fight Tub Ci at some non-Praetorian point? (I feel the same way about Sebastian Frost and the Center, by the way.)

- Vivacious Verandi. Way too short in a level range (villainside 30s) that's been starving for content since launch. And getting slapped in the head by Hardcase will never not be annoying.

- The VEAT arcs. Might as well not be there for all the story value they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
They could rewrite Television's arc every couple of years, replace the Babylon 5 joke with a Battlestar Galactica reboot joke, replace the Simpsons joke with a How I Met Your Mother joke, and so forth. But they're not going to. So, as much as old guys like me love that arc, sooner or later it's going to have to go.
Well, aging out is inevitable. I've been noticing lately how quaint the Freakshow's 133tsp33k is starting to sound.


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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
some of the best writing in the game is on that side, like the two original Sky Raiders arcs, or the later Freakshow arcs, or the Malta arcs.
Geez, really? Indigo and Crimson easily walk away with my prize for Most Appalling Arcs. Crimson in particular. He's meant, as we're cunningly told in the arcs, to be terse, opaque, and unfailingly sly. What he actually is is possibly the most verbose contact in the game. He gushes details about every little thing that happens, he's apparently too dumb to tell whether his protege is a traitor or not without a gigantic amount of legwork on your part, he constantly goes over the "plot twists" that are obvious even if you completely avoid reading any of the overly expository clues... He's meant to be the world's foremost super spy and it kind of seems like he's an idiot.

Indigo has all of the same problems but since she's only supposed to be the world's second greatest super spy it's easier to let them slide.

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On the other hand, there isn't a single arc in the entire game that was written prior to issue 6 that doesn't deserve to die a horrible death for lousy game mechanics
So very true.


 

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Originally Posted by Cass_ View Post
every single "go defeat x of x"

seriously those filler pieces of horriblness need to be dumped fast.
They are nowhere near as annoying as the PITA AE tour, the University tour, and the damn go talk to "x" that have doing nothing but running from one spot to the next on every single character.


 

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Originally Posted by Cass_ View Post
every single "go defeat x of x"

seriously those filler pieces of horriblness need to be dumped fast.
Well, the rolling content revamp is slowly taking care of them


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
They are nowhere near as annoying as the PITA AE tour, the University tour, and the damn go talk to "x" that have doing nothing but running from one spot to the next on every single character.
I was so very excited when I heard about the "ongoing training" missions that could be out-leveled because, even if I didn't want to run them, it meant the stupid Architect Manager wouldn't be sitting in my contact window until the end of time. So of course, I was so very disappointed with my first character to hit level 5 after i21 launched.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Well, the rolling content revamp is slowly taking care of them
By "taking care of", you mean "making worse", right?
It's been less than a week now, and I've already lost count in the number of times I stalled in an arc because a mob with a very specific name decided to stop spawning.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I mean removing
Then you clearly haven't played the new lowbie arcs. Hunts come up constantly. Aaron Thiery's was horrible. "Hunt Hellions. No wait, I mean hunt Arachnos. Good, but now hunt Arachnos that have specific names. Oh, and I saw some pylons, go hunt those. And yes, I guess, if you really feel like you have to, you can go do a door mission now."


 

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Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
City of Heroes skews old, I gather; I get the impression that the average CoH player is probably around age 30. But that means that to the average City of Heroes player, they're making jokes about television series, all but maybe one of which (American Idol) went off the air before that average CoH player was born. No matter what country they were born or grew up in. And that's going to be more true, every day, the longer arc stays there.
As a child of 1984, I appear to have that working against me, as well. It's funny how I JUUUST missed that "greatest generation" or "generation X" or whatever they call it, so every time references come out, they're usually just shy of 10 years before my time. When games are mentioned, it always seems to be NES or ZX Spectrum, when movies are mentioned, it's usually 80s movies. Things of that nature. I'm not sure about the 60s, but as a child of the 90s, it seems like all the pop culture that's most famous is from the 70s and 80s, RIIIGHT before my time.

That said, you underestimate the disadvantage that non-Americans have when it comes to pop culture references. Sure, the old ones would be beyond me even if I were born and raised in the US, but I don't get even contemporary references, either. Just yesterday, I had to have that whole "man law" thing explained to me, which apparently I was expected to know about. I get to see a few of the more popular things, like the Mythbusters, more famous movies and so forth, but I get no TV shows, I get no news broadcasts, I get no commercials, no music programmes... Nothing. I'd be out of the loop even if the references were current.

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Originally Posted by Finsplit View Post
What you call banal, I call unobtrusive. Contacts with strong personalities have a way of making me feel like I'm just playing an adjunct to their story. Contacts should be Commissioner Gordon to my Batman, and how much personality does Commissioner Gordon really need?
I feel much the same way. I LOOOVED City of Heroes back in the day, and not just because I didn't know better. I got into the game after having played games like Diablo I and II, and that's the gameplay I was looking for. That's the gameplay I'm STILL looking for. Tell me where I'm going, tell me why I'm going there, then get lost and let me play the damn game.

When City of Villains came out with its memorable contacts, one of my chief criticisms was that they're usurping the limelight. Oh, sure, the old CoH contacts were bland, but that was OK - it was a story about MY character, it was a story about ME. Far, far, FAR too many contacts red-side tell a story about themselves, my character be damned. In a curious role reversal, the contacts are no longer bland. Now my character is the bland, unimportant one. Hell, Veluta Lunata, for all the praise I gave her, still has an arc that comprises of "I'm quirky, serve me, now get lost!" with nothing having been accomplished on my end. I got "paid" with money that is to fake money what fake money is to real dollars, I got no resolution to either story arc, I earned no revelation regarding story or canon... I just got used, "paid" and sent on my way. This is no longer a story I can pretend to be about me. It was about HER.

At least when it comes to Veluta, the gameplay is still fun and unobtrusive, it doesn't pause in the middle of the action to deliver more exposition or run other people's characters in my face, the maps are large, the action is solid and the arc doesn't assume. So while it IS an arc about Veluta, there is at least room for me write around it and the arc itself is fun.

The harder the developers try and the more gimmicky they make their missions, the less fun these missions become. Every time the game pulls the drag chute and yanks me out of my state of flow by the neck, it introduces a stop point. If I stop, I'm likely to tab out to the forums, watch TV, walk away to eat or just end for the night. Every time I have to stop, my "flow" goes out the window. Fiddly game mechanics that keep me from killing stuff do not help my immersion. On the contrary, they ruin it entirely.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

There's a lot in the thread I agree with, so I won't parrot it, but I will say: rewrite some of the 10-25 villain stuff. Now, don't get me wrong, it's good- but with minor rewrites it could be great. A lot of the content there references the Blood of the Black Stream, which is a concept left by the wayside. Update it to the Coming Storm! Wasn't it 3K Kelvin in those arcs, the Hellion boss? Maybe he had another name, I forget. But he's all about BotBS- when heroside, Hellions are chomping at the bit for the Coming Storm. There's a lot of potential to mix in Coralax and a lot of those other forgotten plot threads left in the low-level villain area. For example, say the red coral shards are from another meteor. Bam. Coming Storm. Of course, not everything needs to tie into the CS. But there's no reason to have these plot threads for content we'll never see lying around.


 

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Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
Then you clearly haven't played the new lowbie arcs. Hunts come up constantly. Aaron Thiery's was horrible. "Hunt Hellions. No wait, I mean hunt Arachnos. Good, but now hunt Arachnos that have specific names. Oh, and I saw some pylons, go hunt those. And yes, I guess, if you really feel like you have to, you can go do a door mission now."
That's to reduce the load on the mapserver


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
That's to reduce the load on the mapserver
It doesn't matter what it's for. You can't say they're "dealing with" hunts and certainly not removing them, when half of the missions for the arcs in question are hunts! That's not even insane troll logic, that's just...not logic!


 

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Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
It doesn't matter what it's for. You can't say they're "dealing with" hunts and certainly not removing them, when half of the missions for the arcs in question are hunts! That's not even insane troll logic, that's just...not logic!
Count the number of hunts you now have to do 1-29 with the new content


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

I'm pretty used to the game god-moding all over my characters at this point, and I mostly just roll with it. I even cut the devs some slack on it, because I realize that there is no possible way they can possibly account for every individual character concept the playerbase can come up with.

That said, the arc that goes above and beyond anything even I can tolerate in that regard is Dead Man's Deck (Mercedes Sheldon's redside arc). Maybe this one had such a strong effect on me because I first played it before I'd become assimilated. I remember talking to Darrin at a certain point in the arc that I won't give details on (hey, somebody might not have played it yet), and thinking, "Wait? I'm doing what now?" Now that I know what's coming, I will run the arc, but only with a character that would actually do what the arc forces him or her to do. On the upside, that first time through did lead to a good RP scene, as my character and her partner decided to rectify the situation after the fact (even though there's no way to reflect that in the actual game).

There are other arcs that I'd like to see revamped, but that's the one that leaps out at me. Another reason it probably stands out for me is that I just find redside so much more satisfying than blue in general, so I suppose my loves and hates are both stronger, redside. I have very little memory of most of the blueside content, as I've only played it once or twice; I find it all pretty dull. I tend to do tips with my heroes & vigs now that that's an option, or just run them in task forces. So perhaps I'd vote for an overall blueside revamp.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Err... That's precisely the kind of arc I like the most in this game, and always have I like playing City of Heroes, and City of Heroes is beating up dudes in instanced missions. All the fiddly mechanics introduced to complicate and hamper this just take away from my gameplay and interrupt my state of flow.
I'm of this mind. I think a fault in some of the more recent missions is trying to fit narrative around new tricky game mechanics (yay chained objectives and ambushes, and OH LOOK I'VE ANOTHER DOPPLEGANGER).




Regarding Unai -- I actually like the missions he gives out. I get a variety of villain groups, lots of them, on wide open maps. I very much LIKE running these kinds of missions (same goes for the charred forest map, DA cemetery, etc). As an arc, it's not very good. I'd be all for giving him the Borea treatment though, unlimited one-offs in random alternate dimensions.


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Originally Posted by Casual_Player View Post
No contest: Dr. Graves.

In nearly seven years playing I have never quit an arc midway because it was so bad.

Dr. Graves has changed all that.

I am willing to watch his story arc sit there and rot for eternity if it means not having to interact with the stupidity again. Badges? Merits? I don't care if it rewards rainbows and puppies, I'm not finishing it and I'm never re-playing it.

Bad characters, bad writing, bad editing, insulting assumptions, railroading dialog trees, misplaced mob markers- if there's something that can be wrong with an arc, Graves has it. I would cheerfully do any of the Shardow Shard TFs before running Graves again.
I completed all the arcs for the new badges, wasn't even reading the story (just spamming left click) and even under those conditions I found this arc bad. It took me about three times longer than the heroside equivalent.

The only point where I stopped for a moment to listen to what was going on was during the "Dollface" twist.


On behalf of redside players, I'd like to remind everyone of the travesty that is Hardcase. Or more accurately, the travesty of Vivacious Virandi's arc where halfway through Hardcase derails everything by making you scared of him.

I have about 9 characters with that arc half-completed, because I flat out refused to bow to Hardcase's idiotic threats. They are all still waiting for Hardcase to "bring down some serious firepower" on them, for their refusal. It's been 5 years...


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Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa View Post
There's a lot in the thread I agree with, so I won't parrot it, but I will say: rewrite some of the 10-25 villain stuff. Now, don't get me wrong, it's good- but with minor rewrites it could be great. A lot of the content there references the Blood of the Black Stream, which is a concept left by the wayside. Update it to the Coming Storm! Wasn't it 3K Kelvin in those arcs, the Hellion boss? Maybe he had another name, I forget. But he's all about BotBS- when heroside, Hellions are chomping at the bit for the Coming Storm. There's a lot of potential to mix in Coralax and a lot of those other forgotten plot threads left in the low-level villain area. For example, say the red coral shards are from another meteor. Bam. Coming Storm. Of course, not everything needs to tie into the CS. But there's no reason to have these plot threads for content we'll never see lying around.
While they're at it, they could retcon the eternally-incomplete rocket ship platforms into Meteor-defence launch sites


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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
..

Terra Conspiracy:

Could use some story touch up, but major overhaul to the missions to make them more varied and interesting. The arc climaxes in a battle with a powerful monster in the middle of downtown. This should be massively cool, but it's just me trading blows in one spot with a green DE reskin. What would be cooler? Take the "leaping" tech that Marauder uses on Lambda, have Terra actually rampage around town and you have to STOP her from smashing stuff.


.

Terra came to my mind first as well. With the new tech, maps, and behavior that can be used the last mission could be updated and turned into an epic battle.

For a bit of dreaming: I would love if the final boss battle was in a real zone, say Atlas. Terra and her followers are immune to everything but the mission owner and their team, and conversely nobody outside of the team can be damaged by her. Random jumping around the zone and tack on some dialog and you would end up with a very unique boss encounter...and something that may startle a few new player


Like I said, dreaming. But it could use a good update.


 

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Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
Then you clearly haven't played the new lowbie arcs. Hunts come up constantly. Aaron Thiery's was horrible. "Hunt Hellions. No wait, I mean hunt Arachnos. Good, but now hunt Arachnos that have specific names. Oh, and I saw some pylons, go hunt those. And yes, I guess, if you really feel like you have to, you can go do a door mission now."
As funny and true as that is, it took all of about 60 seconds to get through.

I was FAR more annoyed by this:

"Go to the back of the mission to talk to this guy. Okay, now find another person who's about halfway up the map. Now go back to the beginning. Now go find that Unique Transmitter you passed earlier and click it. No, not THAT Unique Transmitter, the OTHER Unique Transmitter. Now, go and click the other transmitter. QUICK! Hurry to the fron of the mission again, no wait...I meant the back! No wait, the middle! I said quick!!

Yeah, okay. You had all the time in the world, I just rushed you for lulz. Now go back to the beginning and defeat the security team. No, not all those guys in a group standing together who look like a team, I said THE SECURITY TEAM! THAT single guy standing THERE named "The Security Team" by his parents...!"

I have never accumulated so much physical mileage in single maps before. I wanted to rename my character "The Human Yo Yo"


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Originally Posted by gec72 View Post
I'm of this mind. I think a fault in some of the more recent missions is trying to fit narrative around new tricky game mechanics (yay chained objectives and ambushes, and OH LOOK I'VE ANOTHER DOPPLEGANGER).
This is exactly what they're doing. The BAF is the worst example of it, but the clone arcs and Vincent Ross are also pretty bad. Another problem is that these mechanics are simply overused. They are like a spice -- use a little bit of the right one and they can make a good story even better, but use too much and the whole thing just tastes like a million conversations strung together. Can I just click the blinky without talking to it, please? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Dollymistress View Post
On behalf of redside players, I'd like to remind everyone of the travesty that is Hardcase. Or more accurately, the travesty of Vivacious Virandi's arc where halfway through Hardcase derails everything by making you scared of him.
It's even worse now that you can beat him up in a tip mission before you do the arc. Why would I be scared of someone I just kicked that tar out of?


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