So how long before they spill the beans for the new dom stuff?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-09-16 06:40 in Dominators
We've been waiting how many years for Illusion Control, now? 
It's the only one left. Just do it already!
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Those new control sets are so awesome that they are going to release 20 more melee sets just to balance things.
Who am i kidding.
I actually think that Radiation Control/Radiation Assault would be a fairly easy make, mostly because the Assault set powers are already in the game, so you just need to make the control set. Shivans have three melee radiation attacks, so you use those. Then you take the three single target blasts from Radiation Blast. Bam, 6 powers already. Then you give them either Build Up or Power Boost. So, we've got 7 powers, no problem.
So, what are the other two powers? Well, either Irradiate or Electron Haze could probably go in for the AoE power. Then we need a "Utility" power, since I'll be damned if I'll give this set a snipe. So that leaves us with something from the Radiation Emission set or a single new power. I'd say that Fallout might make an interesting choice. EMP might as well, but that might be too debuffy.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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But controllers dont have Dark Misma yet! There is no reason why a Controlelr version of Dark Misma has to be identical to the defender version. Look at what they did to Ice Armor.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Dark control wouldn't really be as easy as people think, because it's part of that horribly tangled web of Dark themed sets.
You can't* steal (many) powers from Dark Miasma for it, because eventually Controllers will get Dark Miasma. You can't steal too many powers from Dark Blast or Dark Melee, cause many of those powers are likely to go into Dark Assault. |
Also, you can create all new powers without much work. Dark is a "simple" set type with a simple secondary effect that does not need much thinking. Whatever you do, just add -tohit and fluffy dark FX.
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| Edit: Not to mention that I'd prefer Dark Miasma get ported to controllers with as few tweaks as possible (though I do expect Fearsome Stare to drop to Mag2 and get a longer recharge). If we're going to get Dark Control as a "new set" than damnit I want a New Set, not just the same powers put into a different order. |
This is what I would do for controller version of Dark Misma:
- Twilight Grasp stays
- Tar patch stays
- Darkest Night stays
- Howling Twilight stays
- Shadow Fall stays
- Fearsome Stare changes to Terrifying Stare cone -recharge
- Petrifying Gaze changes to Horrifying Gaze -dmg, -res (ST) NEW
- Black Hole stays
- Dark Servant stays
- Penumbral Grasp ST immob from Dark Manipulation
- Petrifying Gaze Single target hold from Def Dark Misma
- Tenebrous Tentacles Immob cone from Dark Blast
- Fearsome Stare cone fear from Dark Misma
- Death shroud dmg aura from Dark Armor
- Dark Pit Foe Disorient (aoe) from Dark Blast
- Nightmare AoE Hold New power.
- Oppressive Gloom stun aura (self harm) from Dark Armor
- Lich from Mastermind Necromancy
- Smite from Dark Melee
- Dark Blast from Dark Blast
- Shadow Maul from Dark Melee
- Gloom from Dark Blast
- Power Boost from... all over the place.
- Umbral Torrent from Dark Blast (blaster)
- Whirling Darkness new power
- Darkest Night from Dark Misma
- Midnight Gasp from Dark Melee
Do we actually have info on our Almighty Developers putting something new out for Doms?
Well...I'd guess if it's being ported to Dominators exclusively, then it would have to either be a new Secondary or Illusion Control. Any control set that is given to Dominators and not Controllers would raise a storm of outrage.
Too many alts to list.
I dont think any new control set created would be exclusive for dominators.
I think the main reason we see so many melee sets added is that 4 ATs can use them, 2 of these (Scrappers and Brutes) are 2 of the 3 most popular ATs.
Ranged sets can only be used by 3 ATs, with one of them (Blasters) being the most popular AT.
Buff sets can only be used by 3 ATs that are not extremely popular.
Control sets are limited to only 2 ATs.
The devs get to satisfy many more players going for ranged and melee ATs.
In theory doms can get an easy set path if you forefeit sinergy with primaries. Crazy example: a dual wielding crazy set that holds a sword in one hand and a gun in the other. There would be no control set ever to tie up with such a power set, but it would be something amazing for dominators to get. I would guess its possible to pull without doing a single new animation too. Another issue is that constant use of control powers will mean weapon redraw hell.
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Originally Posted by Atomic_Toy_Guy
(sarcasm) Yeah because you know melee characters have such a short list of primaries to choose from. (/sarcasm)
Its amazing the last couple of ranged sets they have created have been lackluster to say the least. Yet it seems each melee set they make just keeps getting better and better. I guess we know where their priorities are. |
Well since melee sets are the most played I guess their priorities are spot on from a business standpoint. Work on the popular stuff first and make your way down the line. Sounds smart to me.
As far as lackluster sets, it's all a matter of opinion. I'm sure plenty of people love the new ranged sets. Just as sure as I am that some people will hate the new melee sets. In fact people are already asking for refunds for StJ. Your better and better is the other persons trash.
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I would consider paying my friends in the russian maffia to kill any dev that gives us dark assault without the PBAoE +Dam power whose name I always forget.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
[/LIST]This is what I would do far Dark Assault (warning, have not benhchmarked what this power combination and recharge times and damage rations may require readjusting for it to work decently within the set.):
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Well, no I wouldn't. But I do want that one in the set very very very much.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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That power is already available in the patron pools.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I would consider paying my friends in the russian maffia to kill any dev that gives us dark assault without the PBAoE +Dam power whose name I always forget.
Well, no I wouldn't. But I do want that one in the set very very very much. |
Dominators dont get access to "melee boost powers" (Build Up or Soul Drain) by design outside their patrons.
They get Aim or Power Boost instead.
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There's also no reason TO change it when you have to make new powers to fill the holes you created anyhow. So why not use that time to create the new powers for the new set?|
Originally Posted by Starsman
But controllers dont have Dark Misma yet! There is no reason why a Controlelr version of Dark Misma has to be identical to the defender version. Look at what they did to Ice Armor.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
There I think is the problem. It's very unlikely a controller dark misma will be as heavy in control as the current defender version because there would be too much stacking with any control set.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
This is what I would do for controller version of Dark Misma:
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Originally Posted by Starsman
That power is already available in the patron pools.
Dominators dont get access to "melee boost powers" (Build Up or Soul Drain) by design outside their patrons. They get Aim or Power Boost instead. |
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
What I would like to see for Doms:
Dark Control
Trick Arrow (modified and maybe just for Doms)
Illusion Control
Kinetic Control
Weather Control
Gadget... Control
Dark Assault
Street Assault (Dual Pistols and Martial Arts with alternate animation options for Super Strength and Steet Justice)
Rifle Assault
Weapons Assault (Sword, Axe or Mace and Bow)
Kinetic Assault
Radiation Assault
A lot of them are pretty unlikely though.
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I'd hope that Dark Assault would instead get a tweaked version of Black Dwarf Mire, in other words their PBAOE is also their "utility" +damage power. |
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Not true. Electric Assault gets Build Up. (But yeah, Dark Assault can't get Soul Drain, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Assault got Lifedrain or Siphon Life as it's "Utility" power.)
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Obviously the +damage would need to be set appropraitely for Domis, but I'd see it working like a PBAOE follow-up / Dwarf Mire hybrid.
Mind you I'm not sure how confident that something like this which would make the set interesting for me will happen. The last Assault Set we got was Earth, which Synapse created, and that got "same-old same-old" Power Boost instead of something thematic like Earths Embrace.
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I was rooting for Earth's Embrace in Earthen Assault too, especially when one of the devs described it as "tanky" alas no. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I'd hope that Dark Assault would instead get a tweaked version of Black Dwarf Mire, in other words their PBAOE is also their "utility" +damage power.
Obviously the +damage would need to be set appropraitely for Domis, but I'd see it working like a PBAOE follow-up / Dwarf Mire hybrid. Mind you I'm not sure how confident that something like this which would make the set interesting for me will happen. The last Assault Set we got was Earth, which Synapse created, and that got "same-old same-old" Power Boost instead of something thematic like Earths Embrace. |
I kind of doubt the Mire thing though, since dwarf Mire is itself a tweaking of Soul Drain, which we know we won't get two of. Ultimately we're probably stuck with Power Boost again. Oh well.
I think it'd be nice to have a set that was lower damage, but more survivable (not low damage, but lower damage), and that could work really easily with Dark's theme of siphoning strength from nearby foes.
(Edited to rephrase something.)
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
I was rooting for Earth's Embrace in Earthen Assault too, especially when one of the devs described it as "tanky" alas no.
I kind of doubt the Mire thing though, since dwarf Mire is itself a tweaking of Soul Drain, which we know we won't get two of. I think it'd be nice to have a set that was lower damage, but more survivable (not low damage, but lower damage), and that could work really easily with Dark's theme of siphoning strength from nearby foes. (Edited to rephrase something.) |
Dwarf Mire is slightly different to Soul Drain / Human form Mire, it's much quicker to recharge but the buff doesn't last as long.
That's what I'm aiming at here, a PBAOE attack but one with the duration of and somewhere around the same damage bonus of Follow-up when you hit 4, 5 or 6 enemies with it.
Something changed enough so it avoids the "cannot have two of the same power" rule. Warshades already break that rule anyway with their 2 Mire variants, and Fire/TA controllers dance along it's line with their Smoke & Flash Arrow combo.
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That's why it's a "low hanging fruit". If you want the most likely thing to happen, that would be it. If you want a new set, it's more likely they would spend the time making a new set instead, something like Radiation Control or a gadget based control set.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Honestly I would be incredibly disappointed with that Dark Control set. That amounts to powerset proliferation, not a new powerset. There's 1 new power (and a modified pet) the rest is just a rehash of stuff we've already had for years.
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| Not true. Electric Assault gets Build Up. (But yeah, Dark Assault can't get Soul Drain, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Assault got Lifedrain or Siphon Life as it's "Utility" power.) |
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I am not sure if the devs are willing to give any type of heal to doms in their assault sets.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
I was rooting for Earth's Embrace in Earthen Assault too, especially when one of the devs described it as "tanky" alas no.
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| I kind of doubt the Mire thing though, since dwarf Mire is itself a tweaking of Soul Drain, which we know we won't get two of. Ultimately we're probably stuck with Power Boost again. Oh well. |
Bit of "same old" with a spice of new.
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for me, that would guarantee I don't take it. I'll take a PBAoE that causes damage and gives a damage boost. I have respecced out of powerboost on all of my characters including controllers, corrupters and defenders and will not be taking it or any clone of it again, probably ever. I'll slot for duration and procs for magnitude. If I'm clicking something it better be making the target dead.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
What about a Soul Drain that instead of boosting damage did a small per target power boost?
Bit of "same old" with a spice of new. |
Yup, I know it does "great" stuff like boosting shields, so on. Don't care. It's just one more fiddly click that doesn't kill the enemy and prevents me from attacking when I want to. Make it a toggle and then you're talking my language.
Give us a damage aura or mez aura toggle that gives a powerboost per target affected. That would be new, would be cool, and could be balanced depending on the numbers. Doesn't have to be a ginormous bonus and shouldn't have fire/kin farming power. Just something new, and different, and shiny with a solid, reliable bonus that doesn't interrupt my attack chain.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Same was said about giving Blaster's a self heal (in the form of porting Dark Blast), but that happened, and in fact Life Drain got buffed while doing it.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I am not sure if the devs are willing to give any type of heal to doms in their assault sets.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
That's why it's a "low hanging fruit". If you want the most likely thing to happen, that would be it. If you want a new set, it's more likely they would spend the time making a new set instead, something like Radiation Control or a gadget based control set.
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*You can't say "Oh well it wouldn't be proliferation, cause the set doesn't already exist on another archetype," cause Blasters have gotten 2 Manipulation sets via PP, and those don't exist on other ATs either.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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If it was low-hanging fruit, they'd have given it to us. They've shown in the past that making dom secondaries is about as hard as making blaster secondaries, and blasters got a secondary just in the last round. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
That's why it's a "low hanging fruit". If you want the most likely thing to happen, that would be it. If you want a new set, it's more likely they would spend the time making a new set instead, something like Radiation Control or a gadget based control set.
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They could have given us anything, and it'd have been more than what they gave us. It could be that this is a minority-of-a-minority effect, where, as such a small population, anything that is done has to be weighted against the fact that only a small number of players will be impacted by it positively, or it could be that they're planning for something that involves new art assets and significant new mechanics.
I believe it is the former.
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Except there's already precedence for so-called "low hanging fruit" to have new powers with Electric Control. There were already some electric control powers in game prior to its release but a lot of them didn't make it. Instead we got a new and interesting set.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
That's why it's a "low hanging fruit". If you want the most likely thing to happen, that would be it. If you want a new set, it's more likely they would spend the time making a new set instead, something like Radiation Control or a gadget based control set.
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What I'm hoping is the case is that they're using melee set sales to generate money to do more niche things like Control and Summon sets.
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That seems implausible. Stalkers are a minority too, and they got Ice Armor. And the safe, minimum effort thing to do would have been to just port Illusion more-or-less as is to Doms. Instead they have more than once stated that they have something new coming later instead of proliferation for Issue 21. I doubt they would set themselves up for a backlash by leading everyone on like that.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
They could have given us anything, and it'd have been more than what they gave us. It could be that this is a minority-of-a-minority effect, where, as such a small population, anything that is done has to be weighted against the fact that only a small number of players will be impacted by it positively, or it could be that they're planning for something that involves new art assets and significant new mechanics.
I believe it is the former. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Not saying it's not going to happen but it seems less likely. I never considered it to be too controversial to give blasters a heal. There had never been a thematic set that waranted it before.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Same was said about giving Blaster's a self heal (in the form of porting Dark Blast), but that happened, and in fact Life Drain got buffed while doing it.
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With Doms, we already had a set that would thematically warant it, Earth Assault, and they didnt do it. I would not mind if they did, though.
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Yes it would be low hanging fruit, but as such low hanging fruit I'd have excepted it to get put into the last round of Powerset Proliferation*. It didn't. That gives me hope that if Dark Control is one of the "new powersets" that are Dev confirmed to be coming for Doms, it will be a real new powerset with new powers. *You can't say "Oh well it wouldn't be proliferation, cause the set doesn't already exist on another archetype," cause Blasters have gotten 2 Manipulation sets via PP, and those don't exist on other ATs either. |
BTW this cool idea crossed my mind this morning for a better pet power in Dark Controll: Shadow Theft. A target AoE that spawns a pet for every affected enemy, the pet will rank one rank bellow the affected target and die once that target dies.
Example: Boss is hit, a Lt spawns. Minnion is hit, an underling spawns. AV is hit, an Elite Boss spawns.
The "shadow" would be just a plain black humanoid, size based on the rank.
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Actually making Doms secondaries is "easy" since they are mostly attack. The problem lies in synergy. The only Assault set that was created that would not fit a primary was Elec Assault and its very likely Elec Control was already in the roadmap.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
If it was low-hanging fruit, they'd have given it to us. They've shown in the past that making dom secondaries is about as hard as making blaster secondaries, and blasters got a secondary just in the last round.
They could have given us anything, and it'd have been more than what they gave us. It could be that this is a minority-of-a-minority effect, where, as such a small population, anything that is done has to be weighted against the fact that only a small number of players will be impacted by it positively, or it could be that they're planning for something that involves new art assets and significant new mechanics. I believe it is the former. |
If they were willing to port assault sets that did not tie-in with the primary, things would be insanely easy and doms would be able to have much more options for secondaries, if not primaries. I would like to see such a direction since most ATs dont have that conceptual lockdown.
I would love to see things like Weapon based assault sets, fighting arts with ranged options (martial arts with shurikens and perhaps even a "chi blast") or a Kinetick Assault (all animations in the melee set work for ranged attacks, actually it feels like short range blast set.) I guess next time I poke the devs I will bring that one up and see if there is any reasoning there.
I just know, for a fact, that assault sets are not harder to make than blast or melee sets.
There IS the issue of testing time. Even if creating/proliferating the set was easy, Dominators are not extremely popular and their sets cant be shared with other ATs. Despite ease of putting the sets together, all sets take the same amount of balance testing. The devs get less bang out of their time by focusing in Dominators.
As for dark proliferation, the devs have come out publicly to note why Dark had not been proliferated. They said clearly that it was because of power overlap. They want to be careful and avoid having AT's having multiple overlaping powers. Although they have not said it out loud, it's my understanding that every time this happened in the past (power overlap) it is considered a "mistake" or an "oversight".
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Illussion control, last time I heard, has big issues with Dominators. Mainly: domination does next to nothing for the set, since active pets are not affected by it. They would have to design (argue over, fight eachoter, settle for) some form of new mechanic that will take special advantage of Domination.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
That seems implausible. Stalkers are a minority too, and they got Ice Armor. And the safe, minimum effort thing to do would have been to just port Illusion more-or-less as is to Doms.
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You can't* steal (many) powers from Dark Miasma for it, because eventually Controllers will get Dark Miasma. You can't steal too many powers from Dark Blast or Dark Melee, cause many of those powers are likely to go into Dark Assault.
That doesn't really leave that many powers to cobble Dark Control out of, so really they DO have to build the set from the ground up.
*You could steal all the powers you wanted, but that just means when you get around to proliferating DMiasma to Controllers, or building Dark Assault for Doms, that you've got to make just as many new powers now as you did before, so that saves exactly Zero time.
Edit: Not to mention that I'd prefer Dark Miasma get ported to controllers with as few tweaks as possible (though I do expect Fearsome Stare to drop to Mag2 and get a longer recharge). If we're going to get Dark Control as a "new set" than damnit I want a New Set, not just the same powers put into a different order.