Street Justice / Super Reflexes


Daemodand

 

Posted

Street Justice will probably be out before the end of the year.

I've never played a character with Super Reflexes before, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to try it.

It appears this combination is available on four ATs:

Scrapper, Brute, Stalker, and Tanker

What would be the benefits/perils of selecting any of these?

(I'm hoping for something friendly for soloing, I must admit.)


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Posted

Peril of taking Super Reflexes on a Stalker?

You could have taken Ninjitsu.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zem View Post
Peril of taking Super Reflexes on a Stalker?

You could have taken Ninjitsu.
That same peril applies to the other ATs too though except you would have to replace Ninjitsu with Shield :P


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lxndr View Post
Street Justice will probably be out before the end of the year.

I've never played a character with Super Reflexes before, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to try it.

It appears this combination is available on four ATs:

Scrapper, Brute, Stalker, and Tanker

What would be the benefits/perils of selecting any of these?

(I'm hoping for something friendly for soloing, I must admit.)
Stalker and Tanker are pretty specialized in what they do.

If you want specifically that style of play, it's not really necessary to compare all of the details between them and Brutes/Scrappers.

I will note that the Tanker will be ludicrously easy to softcap, but people will expect you to tank for teams. Take that as you will.

Brute vs. Scrapper for this particular combination will be mostly stylistic as well as some slight playstyle differences.

As we only have the beta numbers for Street Justice, most of my comments will be fairly general.

Damage edge should go to the scrapper, however the combo system + non-persistent damage boost should see the Brute not too far behind.

Survival edge will go to the Brute with higher HP, and therefore higher HPS - this comes with the caveat that the Brute has a taunt aura as well as punchvoke and will be generating solid threat whether you want to or not, which means you will be taking a larger share of incoming damage. Most teams will also expect you to fill that role as needed.

There is also the Fury mechanic, which for a lot of players is a "love it or hate it" thing. YMMV.


 

Posted

If you want to be dead a lot and have your teams talking about you behind your back, roll a tank. SR are the squishiest of the tanks and need some serious support to stay alive but your team won't care - they will see the Tanker icon and send you out to your death over and over anyway.
If you have a lot of friends with a lot of nice Buffs, go a Brute - with higher res and damage caps, they are the AT of choice in optimal situations.
If you don't expect a lot of support, roll a Scrapper. In a situation where a Brute's higher resistance cap doesn't matter or they have no significant amount of regen, I think a Scrapper is more survivable. They trade a few HPs for quite a bit more damage - the mobs being dead faster offers more mitigation than a few more HPs imo.
If you are willing to part with some real life cash and are hopeful the AT specific IOs will remain as we have seen, roll a Stalker. As long as they get their hands on those IOs in their current state, they are to a Scrapper what a Scrapper is to a Brute. Without those IOs, just don't roll one unless you like the hit and run/die playstyle.


 

Posted

Contrary to what the above poster said I would tank with it. No crystal ball here. It would be easier than tanking with my SR Scrapper or SR Brute, given their capabilities, tanking with an SR tank would just be a non issue.

Edit: I also play an SR stalker, I really like that one, one of my best concepts but thats concept related, again playing a SR stalker isn't a problem and compared to my other stalkers she does alright.


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Posted

How is Street Justice in regards to aoe and mitigation? I didnt' get much time on SJ during beta, so I dont' know.
If it doesn't have a decent amount of both, it might be a bit tricky to play with SR as a tank. Dont' get me wrong, SR should be an able tank, but well placed aoe mitigation powers just might help it out more than some other sets.
I know my claw/sr scrapper loves a well placed shockwave or focus for their kb.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadey_NA View Post
How is Street Justice in regards to aoe and mitigation? I didnt' get much time on SJ during beta...
I know my claw/sr scrapper loves a well placed shockwave or focus for their kb.
Well I didn't think it an off the bat ideal pairing but it can be made good end game. I had aid self, aid self changes alot imo but then I wasn't popping greens and oranges like a good'un.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lxndr View Post
Scrapper, Brute, Stalker, and Tanker

What would be the benefits/perils of selecting any of these?
Scrapper: this will provide the best Street Justice experience due to Scrapper damage, but the worst Super Reflexes experience due to the AOE Defense toggle and passive coming so late.

Brute: this provides a Street Justice experience second only to the Scrapper and a Super Reflexes experience second only to the Tanker. I highly recommend this setup as it sits in a very comfortable place.

Stalker: the Street Justice experience isn't that great, but it beats the Tanker at least. You're not playing the full Street Justice set, most notably you lose the -Resist power, so that's another strike against it. Super Reflexes on Stalkers isn't too bad. More Defense and easier to softcap than the Scrapper, but less DDR than the Scrapper, too (and less scaling resistance). Brute and Tanker SR are both better.

Tanker: the Street Justice experience here will be adequate, but every other Archetype will give you a better experience with the set due to higher damage output. Tankers get far and away the best Super Reflexes experience, though. Choose the Tanker if you are extremely defeat averse. Otherwise, roll the Brute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
SR are the squishiest of the tanks
Wrong.


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Posted

Tankers should be able to stack some decent -Res on harder targets as well, with Initial Strike (Bruising), Rib Cracker, and an Achilles in Shin Breaker.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zem View Post
Peril of taking Super Reflexes on a Stalker?

You could have taken Ninjitsu.
Aww. I already have a ninjitsu stalker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
That same peril applies to the other ATs too though except you would have to replace Ninjitsu with Shield :P
Also a shield scrapper.

Apparently I need some peril-sensitive sunglasses....

Thanks, everyone! I suspect a Brute will be in my future.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemodand View Post
Wrong.
Indeed. I had a level-bumped SR tank in Beta and found it to be quite sturdy, and that was without the Fighting Pool, the Medicine Pool, or IOs. Even when the RNG would hate me for a bit, I didn't feel endangered.

Of course, I'm sure there are enemies out there that will cause problems (probably Rularuu and Romans, for two), but I also doubt that I'll be facing them more than once in a blue moon.


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Posted

SR is good, but only has one trick and the trick is odds to dodge attacks, eventually you get hit alot all at once and at this point you need to restore hit points. That has to come from somewhere other than SR, so that's your dilema. Things that buff your Defense or debuff their to-hit can lower the need to heal-up.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lxndr View Post
Street Justice will probably be out before the end of the year.

I've never played a character with Super Reflexes before, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to try it.

It appears this combination is available on four ATs:

Scrapper, Brute, Stalker, and Tanker

What would be the benefits/perils of selecting any of these?

(I'm hoping for something friendly for soloing, I must admit.)
My experience with Super Reflexes on my scrapper soured me towards using it ever again. I avoid it like the plague.

I'd rather use Will Power instead, which in my humble opinion, is the best of the lot for a toon that is brawling trench fighter.

I'm looking forward to Street Justice coming out. I'll probable replace my original first toon who has "Dark Melee / Super Reflexes" with "Street Justice / Will Power." I feel these best suit my original toon's make up and background.


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Posted

Word of warning about Super Reflexes: There really isn't much of a reason, mechanically, to pick this set anymore. Any defense-based armor set can soft cap everything (or everything but psi in some cases), which is all SR can offer you, and they all bring other tools along with them. The only benefit SR has aside from defense values is a +20% global recharge passive power.


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Posted

/SR also gives easy DDR, too, which some of the defense sets lack. I will admit, if you are planning a high to top end build and going incarnate (spirit for rech), many other sets will give you what /SR has to offer and more. I'll probably go StJ/wp or /shield or quite possibly /regen for a gritty "roll-with-the-punches" "gets-hit-and-comes-back" type toon.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar View Post
Word of warning about Super Reflexes: There really isn't much of a reason, mechanically, to pick this set anymore. Any defense-based armor set can soft cap everything (or everything but psi in some cases), which is all SR can offer you, and they all bring other tools along with them. The only benefit SR has aside from defense values is a +20% global recharge passive power.
Super Reflexes can softcap more easily than the other sets, I suppose. My Brute softcapped without taking Weave which is one less endurance toggle, haha. Super Reflexes also has 95% resists to defence debuffing which can hurt other defence sets. Also, there's no button stuff to press, so you can concentrate on your primary more.

Aid Self is a nice tool for Super Reflexes. I believe the interrupt time was recently reduced a little? Plus, it's nice for defence sets as dodging attacks doesn't interrupt (as opposed to getting hit).

In the end, it comes down to whatever you want to pick, as all the defence-based sets do well. :3


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Posted

Don't discount the 95% DDR SR gets. It's the difference between needing 47 def to stay at the soft cap on the ITF and well over 50. I don't count shield with hamios as that is a known bug. Any other def set or resistance set with pool/io soft cap will see cascading def failure if enough rebuffs are Applied.

Also, a SR tank can hit the soft cap without any io investment. This can let you build for more options in ioing than brutes or scrappers who need to get to the soft cap first.


 

Posted

I can only imagine how easy it would be to sneeze and soft cap oneself as a /SR Tanker given the ease with which one could do it with a scrapper and tanker defense AT mods ...

A Scrapper using ONE non-common generic IO, a Steadfast resist/+3% def >>>

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Leaves lots of room to concentrate set bonuses on +max health ... and the only real fear on most /SR builds (particularly late game IO builds) is the unlucky streak of multiple hits overwhelming ones Health. With a Tankers Health the likelyhood of a lucky steak ending you diminishes with every move towards the Hit Point Cap.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
If you want to be dead a lot and have your teams talking about you behind your back, roll a tank. SR are the squishiest of the tanks and need some serious support to stay alive but your team won't care - they will see the Tanker icon and send you out to your death over and over anyway.
I hope you are joking.

I am finding SR tanks are rather ridiculous when it comes to leveling. I have a SR/Ice tank at 42 over on Exalted right now and other than some end issues, I think I have maybe died 3 times total. You realize you need every power except Quickness and Elude, right? You also need to grab Weave and anything above that is just topping while leveling one.

I find them much easier to play than ice tanks, at any rate. This is the 2nd tanker I have ever had an interest to play after Willpower. I shot straight to 50 when Willpower was brand new on my first serious tanker ever, and all these years later, I finally found a 2nd one that holds my interest.

Unless I missed something, everyone else in this thread agrees with me. Sure, when you finally DO get hit, sometimes you get hit hard. I have no sets at all on my SR tanker either, before you ask. I don't run Tough at all. The combo is just that good for leveling. I don't know what he will be like on ITFs/iTrials where the enemies will likely laugh at my ice patch but still, it's been an easy ride outside of some end issues (which will be rectified in a few levels anyway when I grab Physical Perfection and sets.)


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Death_Adder View Post
Don't discount the 95% DDR SR gets. It's the difference between needing 47 def to stay at the soft cap on the ITF and well over 50. I don't count shield with hamios as that is a known bug.
This is only true for shield scrappers (and the highest I could get on mine is 90%). IIRC shield tankers actually do hit 90% DDR without the Hami-O exploit, and expensive builds can incarnate-softcap without compromising rech.

SR ought to be a hugely powerful low/midgame tanker primary but I have my doubts about it in the endgame. I expect an IO tanker to be able to survive things that other characters can't, and I suspect that there's too much stuff that ignores def in the lategame for SR to do it anymore.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomguide View Post
I can only imagine how easy it would be to sneeze and soft cap oneself as a /SR Tanker given the ease with which one could do it with a scrapper and tanker defense AT mods ...
I'm new to these boards, though I've monitored them off and one now for a while. Therefore, paradon my question as I don't mean to sound like I'm uneducated.

This is a term I am not familiar with. What does Soft Cap mean and what or how does it affect an archtype? Thanks.


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Posted

*Most* Critters/targets will have a 50/50 chance of hitting you- that's their base level of accuracy (to-hit buffs modify this number, IIRC, and +accuracy in slotting etc effects the power used). Soft-cap is the max amount, 45% defense to *positions* in melee, ranged, AoE attacks or *types* smash/lethal, fire/cold, energy/neg.energy (toxic & psy are not typed and each use unique scheduels) such that the critters have only a 5% chance to hit you (50% + 45%). You can get more (which is useful for defense debuff powers if you dont have resistance to that, and in incarnate content enemies have higher to hit so one would need 59% to floor typical chances for an enemy to hit you), but the attack mechanics are such that they will always have a 5% chance to hit you - the floor likelihood of landing an attack. Thus it's "capped" as long as they are b/w -3 to +4 or 5 levels (actually above/below this, IIRC, acc is adjusted. Havent looked at this stuff for a while tho, sorry). It is a *soft* cap because there are ways of lessing their acc with debuffs, etc, but this cap represents a functional limit on defense. See ParagonWiki article on defense and attack mechanics for more accurate and exhaustive explanations.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky View Post
*Most* Critters/targets will have a 50/50 chance of hitting you- that's their base level of accuracy (to-hit buffs modify this number, IIRC, and +accuracy in slotting etc effects the power used). Soft-cap is the max amount, 45% defense to *positions* in melee, ranged, AoE attacks or *types* smash/lethal, fire/cold, energy/neg.energy (toxic & psy are not typed and each use unique scheduels) such that the critters have only a 5% chance to hit you (50% + 45%). You can get more (which is useful for defense debuff powers if you dont have resistance to that, and in incarnate content enemies have higher to hit so one would need 59% to floor typical chances for an enemy to hit you), but the attack mechanics are such that they will always have a 5% chance to hit you - the floor likelihood of landing an attack. Thus it's "capped" as long as they are b/w -3 to +4 or 5 levels (actually above/below this, IIRC, acc is adjusted. Havent looked at this stuff for a while tho, sorry). It is a *soft* cap because there are ways of lessing their acc with debuffs, etc, but this cap represents a functional limit on defense. See ParagonWiki article on defense and attack mechanics for more accurate and exhaustive explanations.
Cool, thanks KS. The mechanics of this game are as complex as some RPG games I've played. Luckily, the computer does it for us instead of us having to calculate it all! LOL

However, I do have to disagree with something. Well, not so much as disagree, as I'd call it 'hard to accept,’ the chance the enemy hits. I started noticing it as of late, especially with my Dual Sword/Dark Mesma stalker, that the opponents would miss my toon on every 4th attack, and my toon hit on the 4th attempt. This was against white and yellow level enemies. Enough so, that I'm shouting epitaphs at my computer! Thanks, I'll go look up the information on ParagonWiki.


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Posted

Here's a couple links to the excellent articles in Paragon Wiki Kractis_Sky is referring to.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits

The defense AT Mods I'm referring to are mods applied do to the AT to a base amount .. and is why a blaster does more damage with his Blaze or Flare than a defender will and why in the reverse a defender's Tactics (or other buffs/debuffs) are more potent than that of the blaster. In this case the AT modifier for the Tank AT is larger than that of the scrappers ... meaning the base defense of Focused Fighting for a Tank is 18.5 rather than the 13.88 of the scrapper and then you start applying the effects of whatever enhancements are in the power. The Tank is roughly 5% closer to the cap by virtue of being a Tank. On the other hand the Scrapper melee damage mod (and most attack powers in general) is higher than the Tanks. Also for a Tank the defensive powers are in their primary and therefore generally get them much earlier than they would have access as a scrapper being that they are in their secondary. A Tank could have both Evasion and Lucky by 18th whereas the Scrapper can't have both until 35th when they get Evasion. The net is a much faster and easier journey to reach the soft cap of 45% for a Tank. This is why Laevateinn talks about low to midgame SR/* Tankers being "hugely powerful".

Edit: Also with respect to the ... "that the opponents would miss my toon on every 4th attack, and my toon hit on the 4th attempt. This was against white and yellow level enemies. " ... note the section on Attack Mechanics about the Streak Breaker. Between the Streak Breaker and the nature of human perception to recall bad things vs good things likely explains much of what you're noting (in addition to random is, well, random).