Throw the tourists a bone.


Ad Astra

 

Posted

Being a tourist (Vigilante/Rogue) is awesome. Except for the rewards. Without the ability to convert merits into HVAMs, our buying power is half that of a pure alignment. I certainly understand the desire to encourage staying pure, but I think that's a bit too much of a punishment for those who enjoy touristry - I know that for me, the introduction of HVAMs moved my perception of Merits from "meh, why do I bother" to "ooh, wonder what I'll get!", while adding a useful and affordable inf sink.

Thus, my suggestion, which I take from something already in the game.

Did you know that a Tourist reaffirming his alignment, instead of a HVAM, receives 60 merits? That's only 60% the buying power of a HVAM, but 120% of a HVAM if you switch sides and convert - of course, the problem being, it takes a lot of time and effort (30 tip missions for the round trip, meaning at least six days, plus 20 hours for every HVAM you want to convert).

So in the vein of "tourists can earn more merits but pures get more bang for the buck (after an inf investment)", I propose the following:

Tourists may receive extra rewards from one red and one blue side Weekly Strike Target per week.*

Thank you for your attention.

*: Unless the WST is co-op, then they can't.


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Posted

I'd be happy to throw things at the whining tourists. I prefer canned peas.


 

Posted

Ironically the main reason the Devs introduced the Alignment merit concept to the game was to give the "pure-bloods" some advantage to counter-balance the big advantage of being able to do almost anything red or blue at any time. I doubt the Devs would ever give Tourists some kind of -additional- benefit to counter-balance the counter-balance.


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Posted

We still wouldn't have nearly as much buying power without the ability to convert merits into HVAMs. I'm well aware of the reason for the introduction of HVAMs.

And counter-balancing the counter-balance is not a bad thing if the initial counter-balance was too much the other way, IMO.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG View Post
We still wouldn't have nearly as much buying power without the ability to convert merits into HVAMs. I'm well aware of the reason for the introduction of HVAMs.

And counter-balancing the counter-balance is not a bad thing if the initial counter-balance was too much the other way, IMO.
You'd have to make the argument that the "value" of having access to both the red and blue sides was not as great as the HVAMs per unit time. It may fundamentally "feel" like that is the case, but I'm not exactly sure how you'd quantify that in a way that'd convince the Devs to take action.

Maybe if you better explained what tourists getting "extra rewards" from a WST meant you might better explain the "problem" you're trying to fix here.


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Posted

Honestly, I'm fine with rewards as they are for "tourists". Instead, I'd rather they just open up the other side's regular content. It's not particularly hard to get on (or just start) a TF regardless of which side you're on, so opening up those on the other side...meh.

Keep the system the way it is in spirit. More rewards for the "dedicated", more content for the "tourists". But actually make good on the "more content" part by letting them run arc contacts for the other side.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
You'd have to make the argument that the "value" of having access to both the red and blue sides was not as great as the HVAMs per unit time. It may fundamentally "feel" like that is the case, but I'm not exactly sure how you'd quantify that in a way that'd convince the Devs to take action.

Maybe if you better explained what tourists getting "extra rewards" from a WST meant you might better explain the "problem" you're trying to fix here.
As of now, a character can only score the double merits and NotW once per week, regardless how many WSTs they can run.

This way, a tourist could earn the same twice, once by running (say, this week) Mortimer Kal, and once by running Admiral Sutter.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
Ironically the main reason the Devs introduced the Alignment merit concept to the game was to give the "pure-bloods" some advantage to counter-balance the big advantage of being able to do almost anything red or blue at any time. I doubt the Devs would ever give Tourists some kind of -additional- benefit to counter-balance the counter-balance.
I'd just be happy allowing tourists to visit the "other side" Ouroboros.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG View Post
As of now, a character can only score the double merits and NotW once per week, regardless how many WSTs they can run.

This way, a tourist could earn the same twice, once by running (say, this week) Mortimer Kal, and once by running Admiral Sutter.
What would happen when the WST is one of the co-ops?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Astra View Post
What would happen when the WST is one of the co-ops?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG View Post
*: Unless the WST is co-op, then they can't.
Which I think is fine, although I don't really care.


 

Posted

Every time one of these threads pops up I have to wonder; if you want HVAM buying power so bad, why not just change alignment? Obvious answer: Because you just love being able to change sides that much. If you're that stubborn about being able to keep your Rogue/Vigilante status, then obviously the payoff is worth it.

Suggestion for the OP. Make a Hero/Villain, get the merits and email purchased items to yourself. Problem solved.


@Rylas

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Posted

The ability to buy stuff is asymetrical to the ability to play in both cities with a single character. It's apples and oranges.

I personally see staying a hero/villain to be an RP choice, and RP choices shouldn't be rewarded. But I'll set that aside.

There are so many better ways of handling this. In my dream version of coh, I'd solve this by allowing everyone to go to both sides. Pures visiting an opposing side would be attackable by pures on the home team, which would flag the attacker to be attacked back by invaders, essentially turning every non-coop zone into a PvP zone, though completely optional for those who are on their home turf.

As long as the home turfer isn't flagged from attacking an invader, they can group together, and in mixed groups, no one in the group can attack each other. In city zones, no one in the group can benefit another either. Once entering a mission, they all are temporarily rogue/vigilante, and can play normally. But completing any mission like this would possibly screw with their alignment (sorta like old school DnD characters acting outside their alignment).

Anyways, it's not like it's going to change, but to address things. The whole point is to not have to constantly switch characters, at least for me. So switching just so I can get rewards defeats the purpose. These days this game has one endgame and that's acquiring Inventions. No one really cares about anything else. Generally speaking of course. So the ability to participate in that should just be off the table.

If people can play any AT on either side, most won't care what their alignment is called, they'll just want access to the content and rewards, and will all pool in paragon, leaving the isles abandoned.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG View Post
*stuff*
Tourists already have enough bones thrown at them. The biggest one being access to all of the game. At some point there have to be drawbacks.
Therefore, I can't support your suggestion.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit View Post
Tourists already have enough bones thrown at them. The biggest one being access to all of the game. At some point there have to be drawbacks.
Therefore, I can't support your suggestion.
/Ditto


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
Ironically the main reason the Devs introduced the Alignment merit concept to the game was to give the "pure-bloods" some advantage to counter-balance the big advantage of being able to do almost anything red or blue at any time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit View Post
Tourists already have enough bones thrown at them. The biggest one being access to all of the game. At some point there have to be drawbacks.
Therefore, I can't support your suggestion.
I want to ask an honest question here, because this comes up in every single thread asking for improvements to the alignment system: How exactly is being able to simply travel between both sides of the game and participate in some additional team content a "big" advantage? I have a hard time believing it's that much of an advantage at all.

I guess maybe if you had a dedicated farming scheme you could somehow eke out more Reward Merits from TFs/SFs than you'd be normally able to get? But that's not much solace to an average player who simply gives a hoot about character concept but arbitrarily gets access to fewer rewards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
Honestly, I'm fine with rewards as they are for "tourists". Instead, I'd rather they just open up the other side's regular content. It's not particularly hard to get on (or just start) a TF regardless of which side you're on, so opening up those on the other side...meh.

Keep the system the way it is in spirit. More rewards for the "dedicated", more content for the "tourists". But actually make good on the "more content" part by letting them run arc contacts for the other side.
This is a step in the right direction. Not only are there plenty of contacts on opposite sides of the game that would work with grey-aligned characters (Hardcase, Hero Corps, etc.), but it would open up an additional set of story arcs and therefore more reward merits as well.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit View Post
Tourists already have enough bones thrown at them. The biggest one being access to all of the game. At some point there have to be drawbacks.
Therefore, I can't support your suggestion.
Except they haven't got access to all of the game.

Because a Rogue in Paragon City can't use Ouroboros to do lower level hero content, and can't get missions from level-appropriate hero contacts. The same goes for a Vigilante in the Rogue Isles.

Also, as far as I know at the moment, Rogues can no longer access all off the Hero Exploration badges in issue 21, because the Galaxy City Echo portal is only in the Blueside Ouroboros map. Redside Ouroboros has no portal, which means no access for Rogues, while Vigilantes can get all the redside exploration badges (not counting those that are awarded inside missions like Jail Bird.)

Fear Trigger, my DP/Mental Blaster, is a Vigilante because that is what she is. She kills the Family, because the Family killed her mother. The alignment is right for her. The problem is, she can go to the Rogue Isles, but cannot do any Vigilante missions there, apart from the Vigilante > Villain Alignment tip missions that have her slipping into villainy. The only Vigilante content in Paragon City is the small number of Alignment missions per level bracket.

Her Alignment power is pitiful compared to Call to Justice and Frenzy, but even though it's rubbish, I have to make do because it fits her concept. She cannot earn H/V merits and the 5 random reward rolls and easy rare recipe purchase they enable, but she also has no proper vigilante content and no access to the vast majority of redside missions unless I find a team doing them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanTheM1 View Post
I want to ask an honest question here, because this comes up in every single thread asking for improvements to the alignment system: How exactly is being able to simply travel between both sides of the game and participate in some additional team content a "big" advantage? I have a hard time believing it's that much of an advantage at all...
It's not really. If you're a Vigilante, there are no real contacts or arcs for you Redside. Sure, you can run newspapers and pretend your bashing bad guys, but then every once in a while you have to rob a bank (I guess to fund your vigilante activities). And occasionally you can go help Villains beat up Real Heroes in Strike Forces (even I have trouble RPing why my Vigilante sometimes helps the type of people she normally would put six-feet-under go bash the Freedom Phalanx into oblivion)


 

Posted

Access to what exactly?

Those same TFs that my alts can already do?
The story arcs I can't touch?
The exact same AE?

I wouldn't be suggesting this if there weren't precedent and it didn't sound opportunistic enough for Rogues (why a Vigilante would ever team with villains is beyond me)


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
I'd be more for creating special Vigilante/Rogue-only arcs.
That's all that's really needed and the devs probably have something like that planned now that they have Freedom ready to launch.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rylas View Post
Every time one of these threads pops up I have to wonder; if you want HVAM buying power so bad, why not just change alignment? Obvious answer: Because you just love being able to change sides that much. If you're that stubborn about being able to keep your Rogue/Vigilante status, then obviously the payoff is worth it.

Suggestion for the OP. Make a Hero/Villain, get the merits and email purchased items to yourself. Problem solved.
Heck I got shut down and all I wanted in the end was to be able to team with anyone and still make progress towards my own set of balanced rewards. I completely dropped the rewards thing and apparently it's still not ok even though I thoroughly explained it thematically of why it would work to earn vig/rogue fame (at a slower rate) for hero/villain missions. Heck I even used the games own lore.

That being said, here it is again. It will rise again and again and again. It's just a divisionary setup and as long as there is perceived imbalance they will hear about it continuously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG View Post
(why a Vigilante would ever team with villains is beyond me)
Remember vigilante's are end justify the means people. If there was a big enough payoff for teaming with villains they would do so. See Manticore betraying to Lord Recluse in the COH lore comic books .

Also, in comic book history villains and hero's have teamed up numerous times. Usually against a common foe. Vigilante's/Rogue's have much easier justification. Vig's are trying to gain trust or learn information used to do something big. Or maybe they are even casing the villain they are teaming with to try and take them down later. Rogue's just like money .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Socorro View Post
It's not really. If you're a Vigilante, there are no real contacts or arcs for you Redside. Sure, you can run newspapers and pretend your bashing bad guys, but then every once in a while you have to rob a bank (I guess to fund your vigilante activities). And occasionally you can go help Villains beat up Real Heroes in Strike Forces (even I have trouble RPing why my Vigilante sometimes helps the type of people she normally would put six-feet-under go bash the Freedom Phalanx into oblivion)
Again referring directly to COH lore. Manticore killed Statesmen in the Prometheus arc. He didn't plan on him to stay dead, but he shot him dead to get Prometheus to help. So there is a direct example IN THE COH LORE of a reason to bash a hero for a vigilante. Simply the fact that the "end" of restoring super powers justified the "means" of killing Statesmen and risking that he would stay dead. Luckily Manticore was able to get him revived (though he had to temporarily kill himself, find him, and then pull his spirit back with him as he was resurrected).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socorro View Post
It's not really. If you're a Vigilante, there are no real contacts or arcs for you Redside.
This is true for both sides and as mentioned by others includes oroborous and badges. We do not truly get to use both sides. Saying that we have the ability to team with the other side is also not an advantage, everyone can do that via pocket D and RWZ. If you want to play with a friend on the other side going to one of those locations is very easy to do.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_System View Post
...Again referring directly to COH lore. Manticore killed Statesmen in the Prometheus arc. He didn't plan on him to stay dead, but he shot him dead to get Prometheus to help. So there is a direct example IN THE COH LORE of a reason to bash a hero for a vigilante. Simply the fact that the "end" of restoring super powers justified the "means" of killing Statesmen and risking that he would stay dead. Luckily Manticore was able to get him revived (though he had to temporarily kill himself, find him, and then pull his spirit back with him as he was resurrected)...
Oh I didn't say I couldn't RP my Vigilante teaming with Villains, but it is a Stretch that that's the ONLY thing my Vigilante can do when teaming Redside.

Ultimately, I think sideswitching needs to be redesigned, with All Alignments being able to go anywhere, and introducing arcs and other mechanics for rewards and disadvantages for being a particular alignment.


 

Posted

Another one of these threads?

My reward for playing a Rogue or Vigilante is (1) access to the other side, as a "tourist", to claim badges and/or run content with friends' characters on that side; (2) the alignment/morality missions themselves, which are still interesting and fun new-ish content to me; and (3) simply having the alignment which is appropriate to the character recognized by the game.

If I want to grind merits - which I rarely do, unless it's with friends - I have several heroes and a couple of villains with which to do so. Doing so on just one or two of them, up to my daily limit, along with everything else I like to do in a typical day or evening of play, fills up my limited/casual playtime just fine.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG View Post
Being a tourist (Vigilante/Rogue) is awesome. Except for the rewards.
I believe you have the design team's intentions surrounded.