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The Realm Online has been around for a while as well.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Wow - 2004
Anarchy Online - 2001 FFXI - 2002 EQ2 - 2004 Star Wars Galaxies - 2000 City of Heroes - 2004 Eve Online - 2003 And those are just off of the top of my head. I've no doubt I could come up with more with some research. This idea that the short lifespan of a few poorly funded and/or poorly designed games is somehow proof that all games have a short lifespan is a load of peanut butter. |
Launched in 1996 and still going. 15 years and counting.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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So as a friend bump them up to Premium with either a $5 dollar purchase of PP or a cheap copy of the game off of someplace like Amazon. Surely a friendship is worth $5 bucks.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think saying nothing about it at all is the best decision, because if the more experienced players find out about it its one more thing that will keep them from playing. But the chat issue will BY FAR be the biggest turn off. If that isn't changed between now and public release I will be embarrassed by proxy. Other free to play games I have joined some of them in allowed sending tells and chatting. The Help channel is not going to cut it, and IMO it's a bit mortifying that people think that is going to go over well.
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If my friends didn't already have accounts here I'd have bought several copies the game when it was on sale for $1.99 and passed out the codes to get them interested.
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canthis be reworded? think it was an edit that crashed(happens to me a lot). some f2p games do have no chat limits(generally, i notice many unrestricted chat f2p games only have zone wide chat devices for sale, and in a limited amount) but a good number do for the very reason discussed, the ability to make characters and spam stupidity or rmts is a real risk that developers try to control by limiting people till they can actually be limited by banning.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Other free to play games I have joined some of them in allowed sending tells and chatting. .
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So I was telling my roommate (who plays a ******** of F2P MMO's) about the CoH F2P & Premium models. Without any preamble, she described it the same way I've been thinking of it; "Oh, so it's a Free Trial with a perk system?"
I lawled.
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You lawled at what is basically the truth?
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Originally Posted by Heroic Fetus
So I was telling my roommate (who plays a ******** of F2P MMO's) about the CoH F2P & Premium models. Without any preamble, she described it the same way I've been thinking of it; "Oh, so it's a Free Trial with a perk system?"
I lawled. |
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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I think he lawled at her having the same idea unprompted.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
You lawled at what is basically the truth?
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Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
You know - It's not really the "trial" and the "real" game.
It's more like a "basic" and "advanced" game. The basic game is completely free and completely playable, aside from the communication thing. The advanced game is available in bits and pieces for purchase or you can earn parts of it as a bonus for being a consistent customer of the cash shop or you can get it all at once by enrolling in a subscription.
I think that this might be the only AAA MMO freemium conversion where I could legitimately characterize it that way.
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The thing you are missing is that this game is not going to a F2P model. It is going to a system where if you want the entire game, you pay the subscription, just like always, but if you don't want the entire game, you pay less, or nothing more than you already have.|
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
Most F2P games are limited in scope but allow things like tells. DDO for example. Its actually pretty similar to the new model we are transitioning too, they limit class and content, but allow players to communicate freely and join guilds. Anyone who thinks that they will get everything for free is an idiot. But you have to go back and look at what the goal is in going to a F2P Model. Are we just trying to bilk existing customers out of more cash or are we trying to build a larger community, many of which will move from free to premium to vip? I think that by limiting the social constructs of the game we are limiting how big a community we can build.
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A F2P game is exactly as it implies: Free to Play for everyone, with no way to pay a monthly subscription because there isn't one.
Stop trying to compare "most of the other F2P games" to this one, because they're not the same, and your problem is solved.
The Devs decided a long time ago, when they came up with the current Trial account restrictions, that not allowing full access to chat was worth any potential risks doing so might incur. It's reasonable to expect them to continue their philosophy in Freedom, and the fact that a Free account, with only a few dollars spent (not even a month's sub) can gain chat access signals a large compromise in the Devs' thinking. It's not unreasonable to ask a brand new player to shell out a few bucks (especially when the basic game is free, and there's no monthly commitment) to be able to do certain things.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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First of all, It IS a free to play game. You can play it for free with no money spent, therefore F2P. There are lots of games with almost the exact same payment model and they call themselves F2P. No where does it say that just because you can play for free that you cant pay a sub as well. Both DDO and CO use that model, and both claim F2P. Second, I agree that spending money for some parts of the game is perfectly reasonable. I just disagree that basic chat functions should be one of them. Thirdly, its not "my problem" that would be solved by ceasing to compare the games. I'm simply trying to view it from an outsiders perspective. If X, Y, and Z game all offer F2P services, and all have similar basic functionality in terms of UI, movement, gameplay, character advancement etc, why should I not compare them on those terms? Why shouldn't I expect similar features in competing games? |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
The thing you are missing is that this game is not going to a F2P model. It is going to a system where if you want the entire game, you pay the subscription, just like always, but if you don't want the entire game, you pay less, or nothing more than you already have.
A F2P game is exactly as it implies: Free to Play for everyone, with no way to pay a monthly subscription because there isn't one. Stop trying to compare "most of the other F2P games" to this one, because they're not the same, and your problem is solved. The Devs decided a long time ago, when they came up with the current Trial account restrictions, that not allowing full access to chat was worth any potential risks doing so might incur. It's reasonable to expect them to continue their philosophy in Freedom, and the fact that a Free account, with only a few dollars spent (not even a month's sub) can gain chat access signals a large compromise in the Devs' thinking. It's not unreasonable to ask a brand new player to shell out a few bucks (especially when the basic game is free, and there's no monthly commitment) to be able to do certain things. |
The playerbase in CoH has grown decidedly self congratulatory and conceited if it thinks that new players should fork over their money just because we think that it "is reasonable". Personally I dont think its reasonable. I think its arbitrary and harmful, and makes the game more cumbersome for pay players as well as F2Pers. Are we all that scared of getting RMT tells that we would want to limit basic MMO mechanics?
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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I reiterate that the game CommunistPenguin was referring to (DDO) would be classified as a "hybrid" model using the above F2P definition, as it still offers subscription service in addition to their newer F2P element (oh, and it also has a middle "Premium" Tier too for those who have made microtrans purchases or who are former subscribers...sound familiar?). |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
The thing you are missing is that this game is not going to a F2P model. It is going to a system where if you want the entire game, you pay the subscription, just like always, but if you don't want the entire game, you pay less, or nothing more than you already have.
A F2P game is exactly as it implies: Free to Play for everyone, with no way to pay a monthly subscription because there isn't one. Stop trying to compare "most of the other F2P games" to this one, because they're not the same, and your problem is solved. |
In fact, many of the "F2P" MMOs that folks are using as their basis of comparison are former 100% subscription games who added a F2P element to their games. They aren't 100% F2P, as they still offer subscription level service...so they're "hybrid" models too using the strict definition of F2P mentioned above.
Comparing it to them is fine, but the fact is Paragon has stated this is not a Free-to-Play model. They have stated it is a Hybrid. VIPs should reap benefits (always) over Premium. Premiums can come close, but to get full perks they will have to start a subscription and become VIP. Again, this model was designed to encourage VIP status, not to step down to Premium.
I have no problem granting returning players X amount of time at VIP with a little popup at the end of that time period (or an e-mail) to remind them to subscribe or lose X features. However, using Premium as a substitute for (or complaining that it doesn't have) a Lifetime subscription is yet another thing Paragon stated they would not be doing. I paid a Lifetime subscription once, and the game is no longer on my Hardrive. The game wound up being aweful and lost development support quickly thereafter.
The problem with the Lifetime sub is it generates a quick influx of cash and then next to nothing (maybe a trickle). There's a reason WoW never did it. They researched and decided the monthly model is sound. Paragon followed the same research and I think it speaks volumes that they want the game to continue long term, not short term. Had they put the Lifetime Sub in I would have been worried.
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Not this. ^|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
You lawled at what is basically the truth?
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I think he lawled at her having the same idea unprompted.
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This. ^
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I *honestly* cannot think of an MMO that had launched previously or at the same time as WoW that actually had a lifetime subscription offer... Did they even consider doing it seeing as none of the competition had previously done it? Although WoW is popular, at that point in time it wasnt exactly "unique" apart from being more casual orientated (for the main part until you hit the end game *spit*)|
Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose
The problem with the Lifetime sub is it generates a quick influx of cash and then next to nothing (maybe a trickle). There's a reason WoW never did it. They researched and decided the monthly model is sound. Paragon followed the same research and I think it speaks volumes that they want the game to continue long term, not short term. Had they put the Lifetime Sub in I would have been worried.
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The first one that springs to my mind was the elvish/small people one.
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Well from your view point you're wrong. Dedication has nothing to do with money. I could drop 300k into a game and quit it the next day does that mean I'm dedicated? No it means I'm stupid and impatient. And for the last ******* time the game isn't going F2P its a hybrid model. It is an extended trial for free players.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
From where I sit, the value of a dedicated player to any game studio is the amount of money one gives to them. Does it really matter if they give the studio a few hundred dollars only to leave the game a few months later? Not really, as long as there are enough players paying to keep the game going and enough money management by the studio to bank funds for lulls in revenue / subscribership.
Mathematically speaking, ( $x / t) * t still equals $x, regardless of if t (time) is one day, six months, or one decade. If you want to "set yourself" apart in an MMO, do so through experience, through actions, and through "being a mensch". The value of a player is not measured in Vet Reward badges; I've known plenty of good players with few Vet Rewards and plenty of crappy players who have been around for years. What should a player "work towards" in an MMO? Having fun. Period. As long as it isn't at the expense of other players. Why should I care if someone dropped a boatload of money to get the Sands of Mu, so long as they're not kill stealing or griefing me? I have to agree with SlickRiptide: Because right now, I can't see anything to your argument but elitism, especially with the game going F2P. Besides, if tenure were an accurate measurement, I have more of it, so according to your logic, my argument is better than yours  |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Paragon has stated they considdered the lifetime subscription, but saw that most of the games that offered it did not do so well afterward. It matters not about when this game launched, but rather that they were looking at whether it would work for their hybrid business model, meaning Freedom. Zwill and Positron both commented on this in one of the first Ustreams. Freedom was not designed for subscribers to step down to Premium as a substitute for a Lifetime subscription no matter how long we have been with them. They never stated it would be. There are those in these many posts that are upset that they can't play for free and retain everything they have. Paragon was honest about everything presented, there are those that simply read into what was coming and are now upset because their assumptions were wrong.
I, for one, will be very happy to maintain my subscription because I never assumed anything other than I would continue to receive content, which I will.
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Yes and the restrictions on the free accounts in those other hybrid MMO's are just as limiting as ours will be. They just have slight variations to fit their specific needs.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
I reiterate that the game CommunistPenguin was referring to (DDO) would be classified as a "hybrid" model using the above F2P definition, as it still offers subscription service in addition to their newer F2P element (oh, and it also has a middle "Premium" Tier too for those who have made microtrans purchases or who are former subscribers...sound familiar?).
In fact, many of the "F2P" MMOs that folks are using as their basis of comparison are former 100% subscription games who added a F2P element to their games. They aren't 100% F2P, as they still offer subscription level service...so they're "hybrid" models too using the strict definition of F2P mentioned above. |
I have a bit of a thought here (which may've been covered in the past 20+ pages, not sure).
It seems a lot of the folks who plan on staying VIP don't disagree with much on the new F2P system, while a lot of other folks think that the F2P variant doesn't offer enough.
So, would it make sense to everyone if the monthly fee on CoH were reduced?
The prevailing argument seems to be that Paragon is using a hybrid F2P model, which is meant to incentivize the concept of swapping to a VIP status, while still allowing players to access the game (for free) and get a taste of what it's like.
Now, this wouldn't take the sting off of the vital features that Paragon has chosen to lock away from F2P'ers (rather than locking players out of more of the optional bits), but it would lessen the hurt for any Free/Premium player who decided to go VIP.
With the age this game is at, plus the imminent switch to a Hybridized VIP system looming, a price drop to 9.99/mo would probably encourage a lot of players to take a look at the F2P side, and ultimately help in the decision to shell out some monthly cash to Paragon.
Edit - Plus, this way everyone wins.
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Maybe you should go back and read CP's post to actually see what he said. Here, I'll quote it for you so you don't have to scroll back for it. I'll even bold a section for you.|
Originally Posted by Manoa
If you're using the the same definition of F2P that Paragon Studios is using...
...the F2P game that CommunistPenguin was referring to would technically be considered a "hybrid" model. Just sayin'.  |
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Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
My problem with the system, as I understand it, as I said earlier, is that it seems like it would hinder the social aspects of the game. For example, I told my friend the game was going to be f2p, and he expressed interest. However, If its overly hard for him to team because he cant send tells, or start teams, or join SG's, he very well would lose interest and get a bad impression of the game and never try it again. Lack f community has killed many a MMO, and we need to do everything possible to build ours more.
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So you are absolutely correct that if you are using the definition of F2P as it's been being used by Paragon Studios then the game he is referring to when he told his friend that the game was going to be f2p (City of Heroes) would technically be considered a hybrid model.
You've just made the same point I made by quoting Arcanaville's post with the overly large font.
Even though you were apparently intending it to mean something completely different.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
I'm for allowing premiums to have communications, but freebies, no. It doesn't matter if you haven't seen an e-mail or tell from rmters, but they will view Freedom as a new launching point. That being said, being able to reply to a tell, fine, but not send. I do not want to go back to reporting every other tell. My ignore list is still full from last time.
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I'm with this, gots to draw the line somewhere. I played LotRO since 07 and still do some and its basically the same thing between the two. Seems kinda normal to me in this hybrid situation. I also still have a full ignore list from the last time RMT's were every other minute tells and dont want to deal with that again. Seems perfectly reasonable to spend a couple dollars to be premium and have a lot of those restrictions lifted.
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Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose
I'm for allowing premiums to have communications, but freebies, no. It doesn't matter if you haven't seen an e-mail or tell from rmters, but they will view Freedom as a new launching point. That being said, being able to reply to a tell, fine, but not send. I do not want to go back to reporting every other tell. My ignore list is still full from last time.
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Dude. Calm down.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Well from your view point you're wrong. Dedication has nothing to do with money. I could drop 300k into a game and quit it the next day does that mean I'm dedicated? No it means I'm stupid and impatient. And for the last ******* time the game isn't going F2P its a hybrid model. It is an extended trial for free players.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Afriad isn't the right word. Annoyed would be a far more accurate word, and using that word instead, the answer is "yes". I consider it unfortunate, but I am willing to accept what I consider a subpar experience for a new, unsubscribed player to avoid what I consider a subpar experience for myself. Given that the barrier to bypassing the subpar experience is so very low, I am not deeply concerned about the negative impressions that limited communication in particular will create.|
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
Are we all that scared of getting RMT tells that we would want to limit basic MMO mechanics?
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Of course, I was happy playing this game with my communication with other players limited by my own choice for quite a long time. Take that for what it's worth.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The first time I ever heard of a lifetime subscription was the small people one. The pre-launch sale happened to hit just as I was getting my tax refund, so I decided to take a chance on it. It paid off. |
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
I *honestly* cannot think of an MMO that had launched previously or at the same time as WoW that actually had a lifetime subscription offer... Did they even consider doing it seeing as none of the competition had previously done it? Although WoW is popular, at that point in time it wasnt exactly "unique" apart from being more casual orientated (for the main part until you hit the end game *spit*)
The first one that springs to my mind was the elvish/small people one. |
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Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose
I'm for allowing premiums to have communications, but freebies, no. It doesn't matter if you haven't seen an e-mail or tell from rmters, but they will view Freedom as a new launching point. That being said, being able to reply to a tell, fine, but not send. I do not want to go back to reporting every other tell. My ignore list is still full from last time.
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Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Heck, they don't even have to spend $5, if they can find a good deal on a box set. The first time any retail code is added to a game account, a token is granted (only one token total, not per box)... and I've seen box sets as low as $1.50. Just "caveat emptor"...make sure your purchase says "factory sealed" or "unused code", or you have no recourse after purchase if you've been bilked.
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Originally Posted by Justice Blues
This is exactly what the set up is. Free is very limited, but if they buy $5.00 worth of Points, the smallest amount possible, they become Premium and have more chat channels available. (Not all of them, but tells, SG, and a couple of others. I think they need to fill Tier 3 to have globals and all the other channels open.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Send them team invites when they are on.
Bingo. It is no longer a chore for them to group with their friends.
And spending a few dollars lifts this onus.