http://manoasmusings.blogspot.com/20...art-first.html
Take a look at this series of blog posts - there's a lot of very well-thought out and articulate critique of the structure of the upcoming freeb/premium/VIP plan.
I believe they should give us the option to know ahead of time if someones free before they join an SG - from there WE (the paying customers) should have the choice to let them in - ditto for Broadcast and Tells, and even global channels - give us the ability to choose to ignore free players, but not lock them out completely.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
|
I'd rather they restrict chat than allow farmers to muck up broadcast with "BUY INF NOW 2BIL FOR $25 ******.COM" and other such crap.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
This is a much lighter version of what I'm trying to say, this system is nothing more than a bait and switch scam. Paragon and NCSoft is going to have a MAJOR public relations storm if this takes off.|
Originally Posted by Feycat
http://manoasmusings.blogspot.com/20...art-first.html
Take a look at this series of blog posts - there's a lot of very well-thought out and articulate critique of the structure of the upcoming freeb/premium/VIP plan. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'd rather they restrict chat than allow farmers to muck up broadcast with "BUY INF NOW 2BIL FOR $25 ******.COM" and other such crap.
|
Inf. farming is completely useless using the system I proposed. Why risk your account, money, or PC from a shifty website when you can just pay for Paragon Points and sell items of equivilent price on the free-for-all Auction House? (To be fair, I vote you have to be Premium to sell, but free to buy)
Quote:
Prove it.|
Originally Posted by Virfortis
This is a much lighter version of what I'm trying to say, this system is nothing more than a bait and switch scam. Paragon and NCSoft is going to have a MAJOR public relations storm if this takes off.
|
And it's only Bait and Switch when they present you with one scenario and you buy in to another. As far as I can tell, all of these things are detailed to Free players up front.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Virfortis
Please read before posting, I worked very hard to keep this as level headed as possible.
Inf. farming is completely useless using the system I proposed. Why risk your account, money, or PC from a shifty website when you can just pay for Paragon Points and sell items of equivilent price on the free-for-all Auction House? (To be fair, I vote you have to be Premium to sell, but free to buy) |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
The "really really free" level of play is limited, as it should be. It's a very open-ended sort of trial account that you can take to level 50. If you spend a mere $15 to gain access to supergroups and trading, you will have virtually the same game that we have been playing and enjoying for years before IOs came along. It costs you $15 once. That's an amazing deal.
Quote:
Um... you do realize that way back in the days of yore, we didn't have IOs, salvage or other "loot" and made INF *just fine,* right? And that these things called "TOs," "DOs" and "SOs" still drop? And are still completely usable?|
Originally Posted by Virfortis
No salvage, no recipies, an anti-farming tactic perhaps, but to cut out loot entirely? That's a major issue, and it means free players cannot gain any funds. No funds = no enhancements = always dying = no fun = uninstall day one.
|
And by the way, you're not gimped by using them.
Quote:
| No Trading, I don't even need to go here, again, it didn't help Blizzard or Jagex, why would it help here? The influence cap I can sort of get along with, but why not just come out and admit that a free player is never likely to hit one mill, much less 25? |
Quote:
| I get that you want new accounts and players to get interested, while keeping the VIPs happy and that's fine, but this is going to do more harm than good. I can honestly say that I could go find a game with far less restrictions without any problems, so why bomb right out of the gate? |
Quote:
| this system is nothing more than a bait and switch scam. |
Not wanting to come down too hard on the OP on this one, but if you "give away" too much who then will actually pay? I know if you relax some of those things, I know I would not pay.
If you have a hybrid pay model that makes money then you have a potential gold mine. I think this game system is a good business decision for the OP.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Virfortis
Working off of Snow Globe's post ( http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=269185 ) I've realized something: They're not going to win many subs like this.
Hold the pitchforks and hear me out. One of the big things that brings a free player to the market is just that, freedom. The number of restrictions turns the entire "Yay it's free!" argument into false advertising at its best. Guys, what were you thinking? Why even change it if you're not going to let free players actually PLAY? What is going on up there in the PR department? Has anyone working on this idea ever PLAYED a free game? "• No Super Groups • Cannot use Invention Origin enhancements • Limited Chat Channels (No access to: tell, broadcast, global and request) • No Mission Architect • no salvage, no recipes • No Trading • Influence Cap (25,000,000)" That might not mean much to someone that has already been paying for years, but as someone who looks at free games a lot, these are entire deal breakers. The Super Groups I can come half way with, free players shouldn't be allowed to make them or be officers I get that (believe me, I do understand FULLY, given lots of SG names are bad enough as is), but to not even be allowed to join them cuts well nigh all the social aspect out of an MMO. (which is a big deal, especially in such a RP ripe environment) Why should I, as a free player, play this and be alone versus another well known superhero game and be with friends in a group? Suddenly, you lose more than most of the interest. Broadcast has never been a problem, but no access to tell? Blizzard has chat restrictions and they STILL get gold spam (I speak from experience) so don't even try to say it's to cut down on it. Again, I would also like to point out, I can get a superhero game elsewhere and not have this problem. No salvage, no recipies, an anti-farming tactic perhaps, but to cut out loot entirely? That's a major issue, and it means free players cannot gain any funds. No funds = no enhancements = always dying = no fun = uninstall day one. No Trading, I don't even need to go here, again, it didn't help Blizzard or Jagex, why would it help here? The influence cap I can sort of get along with, but why not just come out and admit that a free player is never likely to hit one mill, much less 25? I get that you want new accounts and players to get interested, while keeping the VIPs happy and that's fine, but this is going to do more harm than good. I can honestly say that I could go find a game with far less restrictions without any problems, so why bomb right out of the gate? CoH is MUCH better than this demo (it's not even free, it's just a demo) will ever let on or imply, so why waste a players time? There's not even any publicity about this anymore, once the restrictions showed up. I kid you not, as soon as the list was read out loud, the hype for this game on various free sites (unsure about link rules) died in minutes. This tiered system isn't going to do anyone any favors, especially your stakeholders. Release it now, because I know it's too late to change, but think about just how closed off a free player is going to be when friends won't be able to talk to each other, or do a mission because they can't afford enhancements. There might as well be a level 20 cap like another popular MMO recently gone "free to play." They're not peasant people, don't treat them as such. If you want a great model, look at Perfect World International's costume/mount system, then come back and take a good look at your model, it crumbles. Make the points trade-able on a silent auction (just like now) for Influence, THEN make the premium costumes a license that goes in salvage and can be redeemed at the Tailor for the piece. Now you have people paying not only for the costume pieces for themselves, but buying one or two EXTRA to sell on the free-market. Just like that, you've tripled your money easily. Turn just about everything from the store into these license and watch the money pile up. What should be closed off? I would guess the new travel powers, emotes, make someone pay to get those instead of making them trade-able if you REALLY want to have a sense of superiority. I'm able to answer any problems that could possibly arise from this system. Before you say gold farming though, think about the fact that using this system, they're practically selling influence. Someone won't buy Influence illegally when they can just buy items and sell them off the Wentworth's. So go ahead, show me why this wouldn't work. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
The purpose is to draw new customers in with the hopes of them becoming VIPs or buying ala cart, give them all of that for free and where's the incentive?
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Prove it.
And it's only Bait and Switch when they present you with one scenario and you buy in to another. As far as I can tell, all of these things are detailed to Free players up front. Wrong, the tiered system presented is very convoluted and leads free players into traps like paying for the Invention system, but losing the IOs come license expiration. Suddenly the player has to pay $2 a month to make and use IOs, so why should they bother in the first place? Regardless of what you wrote, inf farmers would spam up servers left and right if Free accounts could do so. Heck, they might just do it in local. It doesn't matter if you don't want to talk about it, it will happen. Gold farmers spam World of Warcraft already, I assure you whatever keeps them from spamming here won't change. The system works now with everyone having to pay per month, just like in WoW, this won't change. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Two_Dollar_Bill
The "really really free" level of play is limited, as it should be. It's a very open-ended sort of trial account that you can take to level 50. If you spend a mere $15 to gain access to supergroups and trading, you will have virtually the same game that we have been playing and enjoying for years before IOs came along. It costs you $15 once. That's an amazing deal.
|
Quote:
I hope this comment doesn't scare anyone off of reading the blog :-/ The blog is full of reasoned, articulate arguments and doesn't say "this system is a bait and switch scam" at all. I suspect Virtortis didn't actually read any of it.
|
Originally Posted by Virfortis
Quote:
|
F2P doesnt equal F2P Everything.
That said, alot of that can be obtained by spending a few bucks on the market and a lot F2P games seem to have a market.
Getting into a SG happens rather easily on the F2P system. That's like what the tier 2 or tier 3 reward?
Mission Architect isn't a big worry. No really, it's not!
No salvage, no recipes? Good thing the game is balanced on SOs then.
No trading? Can SO enhancements be gifted? If so, not to much of a worry there imo.
25million Influence Cap? Considering you're limited to SOs, I don't see this as a big deal, and when access to recipes happen, you'll have a higher influence cap by then.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I see your point but here's why: We get the cool costumes and they won't, unless they have the Influence, then they pay someone who has the license paid for from the store, so Paragon still gets their money one way or another, and the free player stays free, while the Premium player (who becomes the middle man) profits.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
The purpose is to draw new customers in with the hopes of them becoming VIPs or buying ala cart, give them all of that for free and where's the incentive?
|
Let me ask it this way: Would you want to pay a hefty business license to buy groceries every month, or would you rather go to the store (who is technically a premium player) and buy straight from them?
While I'm not overly thrilled with how things are panning out with Freedom and all the micro-transactions involved for paying subscribers, I do see the f2p aspect as an extended and better version of the CoH Trial Accounts.
Going from memory, the f2p is a lot less restrictive from trial accounts. So really you're getting a better preview of the game. And if you like what you see, you have various options to make your experience better.
So in that regard, I think they did things right. Give people an appetizer for free so they'll spend money on the entree and possibly buy some dessert while they're at it.
[ @Zombie Fryer ][ @Zombie Smasher ]
| Home Server: Virtue |
Twitter: @ZFLikesNachos Save City of Heroes (Titan Network) [Successful "The Really Hard Way" runs: 4] [Click ^]
| Home Server: Virtue |
Twitter: @ZFLikesNachos Save City of Heroes (Titan Network) [Successful "The Really Hard Way" runs: 4] [Click ^]
Quote:
I read, thanks, and it's reasoned, but it still says the same thing I say: The entire tiered system is a convoluted disaster that's only going to frustrate free players.
|
Originally Posted by Feycat
I hope this comment doesn't scare anyone off of reading the blog :-/ The blog is full of reasoned, articulate arguments and doesn't say "this system is a bait and switch scam" at all. I suspect Virtortis didn't actually read any of it.
|
Admittedly, yes, if I download a game that's F2P, and see that I lack access to a bunch of features only available to paying customers, my first, initial, gut reaction is going to be, "C'mon! What the hell?"
However, followed oh-so-swiftly after that would be, "Well, I am playing for free after all..." If people show up expecting full access to a game and all of its features, they need a reality check.
The other thing: if a player is playing this game for Free, it means they have enough money for a computer. That being the hypothetical case, if a Free player really wants access to more of that stuff, they can make a one-time $5 purchase for 400 Paragon Points, spend those how they see fit, and (in the process) gain access to things like Tells and the like.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Quote:
Developers have been trying since before MMOs existed to squelch farmer spam. Every single effort has failed miserably. NCSoft is living in a dream world if they think any system they come up with (including this hamfisted joke) won't be circumvented within a month or two.
|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'd rather they restrict chat than allow farmers to muck up broadcast with "BUY INF NOW 2BIL FOR $25 ******.COM" and other such crap.
|
Quote:
Can you prove that? No.|
Originally Posted by Virfortis
I read, thanks, and it's reasoned, but it still says the same thing I say: The entire tiered system is a convoluted disaster that's only going to frustrate free players.
|
But please, do enlighten us as to the kind of system we should be using. I'd love to see you detail out a new system that covers every base that needs covering. I'll wait.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Black Zot
Developers have been trying since before MMOs existed to squelch farmer spam. Every single effort has failed miserably. NCSoft is living in a dream world if they think any system they come up with (including this hamfisted joke) won't be circumvented within a month or two.
|
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
CoH is NOT going F2P.
It is migrating to a Hybrid model with a limited F2P option.
The goal is not to get a ton of players playing for free, the object is to get players that don't want to spend a full monthly fee to lay out some cash as they can to play the game, while giving a limited, fully free option to get them on the hook.
Why is that so hard to grasp?
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Quote:
I played City of Heroes for years without ever getting a recipe or a peice of salvage. I gave influence away because I had more than I needed. I paid $15 a month for the privilege and had fun doing it. I never once felt like I was playing a game "without any rewards".
|
Originally Posted by Virfortis
Again, wrong, you only hit tier 2, which is not much if any better than tier 1. Players still won't get salvage, recipes, Influence, will still be money capped, and in the long run level capped because the game will get very old very quick without any rewards.
|
Quote:
You know GG..I love ya...seriously, your like the spoke person for everything. EVERYTHING!|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
"Free" doesn't = "includes everything"
|
But there comes a time when even you need to admit to yourself when certain implimented crap is just straight up crap!
Certain aspects of trading are needed in this game. Heck...most F2P games offer some sort, just not through mail or other means...
If you cant see the outcome...just send me a winky and make little to no point.
Quote:
But doesn't trading comes after one month of play? Like isn't that unlocked with the second reward token everyone gets after playing for one month?|
Originally Posted by Nyx
Certain aspects of trading are needed in this game. Heck...most F2P games offer some sort, just not through mail or other means...
|
Any new player who doesn't pay for the game has to wait 30 days before they can trade, join SGs or use Tells and e-mails - that seems like a reasonable delay for someone not contributing anything to development and running costs.
Plus, during those 30 days, it's quite possible that a free player could buy 1,200 Paragon Points for various things in the Market, so they'd get their 2nd reward token early.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
As trollish and flaming as that is, I do happen to have a suggestion.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
But please, do enlighten us as to the kind of system we should be using. I'd love to see you detail out a new system that covers every base that needs covering. I'll wait.
|
This is rough draft #1:
Free player restrictions:
Extremely limited costume options
Inf. Cap (25 mill, not unreasonable after hindsight)
No officer/SG (can join, but just a basic member)
Trade only once every 24 hours, and only with global friends.
Buy-Only Auction (again, 24 hour cap)
Special classes (ATs, whatever)
AE: Gain from Editor's Choice only (and even then, XP OR tickets only)
Chat - Tell only to friends.
Basic Level Inventions: Cannot craft IOs, but could craft other smaller things.
No rare salvage
2 slots per token
E-mail restricted to global friends only.
Premium (paying over $10) recieves:
A few more costume pieces, but not much.
Inf. Cap doubled (50 mill like it is)
Officer (I still say they shouldn't be allowed to MAKE a SG, but could lead if promoted to it)
Limited (5) sell auction space
Trade unlocked
Can buy individual costume pieces as a license, which is trade-able to everyone.
Can purchase individual powers, not trade-able.
All Salvage, can purchase invention license, but allowed to use any IOs at any time.
Can purchase ATs.
Can use E-mail
Receives standard AE bonuses.
Can purchase more space for recipes/salvage.
essentially, anything not detrimental to a characters power (skills + equipment = power) can be purchased.
VIPs: Simply just like the game is now, + VIP Points bonus per month. Also allowed to purchase specific costume pieces, but can wait for them if necessary. Also recieves special VIP costumes/auras/emotes/servers.
ADDITIONAL: Points can be traded for Infamy in a special tab at Wentworth's. It will be a silent auction, just like it is today with items. The only way to get points into this system is if a premium or VIP player buys them (a VIP is paying anyways) and puts them in the house. Free players can only buy from this house, and even then once every 24 hours.
Pros: Players who can pay monthly for the bonus will not be locked down if they cannot afford a month, which these days is a comforting thought. Free players are still restricted enough unless they have global friends, then they have some venues. This means a premium player can bring a friend and support the friend (the IDEAL situation, as a free player being helped will eventually become premium or VIP)
Cons: Players seem to get a lot of short-term benefit from paying once.
HOWEVER: Premium players that only pay once will still look like free players.
Idea: This system plays mostly on vanity and lone wolves. Players who want the bare bones experience will only get said bare bones experience. If someone wants to RP, or look different, they have to pay for the costume piece they want. Free players will have to use Wentworth's, which is subject to the Premium player's free-market balancing and results in a fair trade. Free players will be only a little less restricted than the current system demands, but, if they get a global friend then it won't be so rough.
Working off of Snow Globe's post ( http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=269185 ) I've realized something: They're not going to win many subs like this.
Hold the pitchforks and hear me out. One of the big things that brings a free player to the market is just that, freedom. The number of restrictions turns the entire "Yay it's free!" argument into false advertising at its best.
Guys, what were you thinking? Why even change it if you're not going to let free players actually PLAY? What is going on up there in the PR department? Has anyone working on this idea ever PLAYED a free game?
"• No Super Groups
• Cannot use Invention Origin enhancements
• Limited Chat Channels (No access to: tell, broadcast, global and request)
• No Mission Architect
• no salvage, no recipes
• No Trading"
That might not mean much to someone that has already been paying for years, but as someone who looks at free games a lot, these are entire deal breakers. After some due deliberation, here is the model I've come up with as a suggested replacement, which is likely to be flamed an ungodly amount because of forum trolls but here goes.
This is rough draft #1:
Free player restrictions:
Extremely limited costume options
Inf. Cap (25 mill, not unreasonable after hindsight)
No officer/SG (can join, but just a basic member)
Trade only once every 24 hours, and only with global friends.
Buy-Only Auction (again, only every 24 hours)
Special classes (ATs, whatever)
AE: Gain from Editor's Choice only (and even then, XP OR tickets only)
Chat - Tell only to friends.
Basic Level Inventions: Cannot craft IOs, but could craft other smaller things.
No rare salvage
2 slots per token
E-mail restricted to global friends only.
Premium (paying over $10) recieves:
A few more costume pieces, but not much.
Inf. Cap doubled (50 mill like it is)
Officer (I still say they shouldn't be allowed to MAKE a SG, but could lead if promoted to it)
Limited (5) sell auction space
Trade unlocked
Can buy individual costume pieces as a license, which is trade-able to everyone.
Can purchase individual powers, not trade-able.
All Salvage, can purchase invention license, but allowed to use any IOs at any time.
Can purchase ATs.
Can use E-mail
Receives standard AE bonuses.
Can purchase more space for recipes/salvage.
essentially, anything not detrimental to a characters power (skills + equipment = power) can be purchased.
VIPs: Simply just like the game is now, + VIP Points bonus per month. Also allowed to purchase specific costume pieces, but can wait for them if necessary. Also recieves special VIP costumes/auras/emotes/servers.
ADDITIONAL: Points can be traded for Infamy in a special tab at Wentworth's. It will be a silent auction, just like it is today with items. The only way to get points into this system is if a premium or VIP player buys them (a VIP is paying anyways) and puts them in the house. Free players can only buy from this house, and even then once every 24 hours.
Pros: Players who can pay monthly for the bonus will not be locked down if they cannot afford a month, which these days is a comforting thought. Free players are still restricted enough unless they have global friends, then they have some venues. This means a premium player can bring a friend and support the friend (the IDEAL situation, as a free player being helped will eventually become premium or VIP)
Cons: Players seem to get a lot of short-term benefit from paying once.
HOWEVER: Premium players that only pay once will still look like free players.
Idea: This system plays mostly on vanity and lone wolves. Players who want the bare bones experience will only get said bare bones experience. If someone wants to RP, or look different, they have to pay for the costume piece they want. Free players will have to use Wentworth's, which is subject to the Premium player's free-market balancing and results in a fair trade. Free players will be only a little less restricted than the current system demands, but, if they get a global friend then it won't be so rough.