Ok, so Dr. Who fans...

TrueGentleman · 08-31-2011 10:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5

I'm told that Baker didn't care for it himself but said "I was the lucky one [on the crew], I didn't have to look at it." Which made me chuckle.

To be fair, Baker had in mind a costume closer to the Ninth's, to complement his "darker" take on the character, however badly that turned out, too. Incidentally, Baker's turned out to be a decent sport about his infamous run. His quasi-fanmade series the Stranger (Doctor Who with the serial numbers filed off) almost intrigues me.

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I haven't seen much of his run, but what I saw looked bad and I've heard a lot of people's opinion that it was the low point of the show, writing-wise.

For reasons both internal and external, it was the nadir of the original series's run, absolutely the last place for a new fan to start.

GATE-keeper · 08-31-2011 11:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike

Now, a semi-important canonical issue is that a Time Lord can only regenerate 13 times.

Isn't it more accurate to say: They can regenerate 12 times, and therefore get 13 iterations?

i.e. They're born into their first body, then use their first regeneration to regenerate into their second body. Then use their second regeneration to regenerate into their third body, etc.

Or did they retcon that?

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WildClaw · 08-31-2011 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GATE-keeper

Isn't it more accurate to say: They can regenerate 12 times, and therefore get 13 iterations?

i.e. They're born into their first body, then use their first regeneration to regenerate into their second body. Then use their second regeneration to regenerate into their third body, etc.

Or did they retcon that?

It's not so much as a retcon as the various writers and editors not being too clear on it themselves so that it's inconsistantly portrayed.

Mr_Samoa · 08-31-2011 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildClaw

It's not so much as a retcon as the various writers and editors not being too clear on it themselves so that it's inconsistantly portrayed.

I've never seen it inconsistent that The Doctor got 12 regenerations, therefore 13 lives, or two more after Matt Smith.

However, if that changes with [SPOILERS!] River Song giving him her regenerations, I will be considered upset. That's kind of a cop-out.

Memphis_Bill · 08-31-2011 12:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa

I've never seen it inconsistent that The Doctor got 12 regenerations, therefore 13 lives, or two more after Matt Smith.

However, if that changes with [SPOILERS!] River Song giving him her regenerations, I will be considered upset. That's kind of a cop-out.

I do believe they've already gone with "That's more a guideline than a rule" already.

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Ironblade · 08-31-2011 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zikar

Well, I can't really add any info, since it's all be done.

I haven't seen anyone mention the two feature films starring Peter Cushing as the Doctor.
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Coin · 08-31-2011 12:59 PM

Heh, I love that original post!

"Hey all, can someone quickly explain one of the more complicated Sci-Fi shows that's been around for nearly 50 years please?"

Seriously though, to the OP........I am soooo jealous! I would love to be in the position to enjoy Doctor Who for the first time, all over again! Enjoy it all, there's so much good stuff out there

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PRAF68_EU · 08-31-2011 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa

I've never seen it inconsistent that The Doctor got 12 regenerations, therefore 13 lives, or two more after Matt Smith.

However, if that changes with [SPOILERS!] River Song giving him her regenerations, I will be considered upset. That's kind of a cop-out.

Actually, I seem to remember a fifth Doctor episode in which the Doctor was forced to sacrifice a few regenerations.

And the 10ths aborted regeneration aught to count, too.

Then there is the Valeyard...

The Doctor really should be running out by now...

But the limit on regenerations was supposed to be imposed by Rassilon, and he is time locked out of the picture now...

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WildClaw · 08-31-2011 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa

I've never seen it inconsistent that The Doctor got 12 regenerations, therefore 13 lives, or two more after Matt Smith.

However, if that changes with [SPOILERS!] River Song giving him her regenerations, I will be considered upset. That's kind of a cop-out.

Heh. It depends on what you are considering Canon. I have an advantage of having seen all the original series when they were first broadcast, and having read a lot of the Doctor Who Monthly magazine which was officially sanctioned and marketed as 'cannon'.

It wasn't called regeneration until the third-to-forth regen at the end of Planet of the Spiders. Before that it was called 'renewal', could only happen in the TARDIS, and according to DWM in 1982 the writers at that time were considering 'renewal' and 'regneration' were two different things and the two 'renewals' weren't being counted towards the regeneration limit that had been introduced in The Deadly Assassin six years previously.

Brain of Morbius hinted that the 'first' Doctor wasn't and that there were at least eight more prior, but that was a year before the Deadly Assassin that fixed the regeneration limit.

Add that to all the ways used to bypass that limit that was introduced in the series (Underworld, Mawdryn Undead, Keeper of Traken, Five Doctors, Sound of Drums), and the ability to shunt 'regeneration energy' around (Mawdryn Undead again, Journey's End, Let's Kill Hitler)

So, like a lot of things, stuff happened at the speed of plot. Regen does whatever the writers need it to do at the time it occurs.

Rodoan · 08-31-2011 02:16 PM

A bit more regarding the Doctor's people, the Time Lords: They may look human, but Time Lords have some other differences beyond their ability to regenerate. Time Lords have 2 hearts (which has been significant to the Doctor's story every so often), and an expansive mind capable of grasping knowledge and concepts that would fry a human brain. Incidentally, though its not mentioned much of late, not every Gallifreyan is a Time Lord. I think it was the 4th Doctor and Leela who interacted with some "standard" Gallifreyans.

We do know the Doctor had some sort of family in the distant past, before the 1st Doctor arrived on Earth. He almost never talks about them and never in specific detail. Susan, who traveled with the 1st Doctor, was introduced as his granddaughter. She settled down into one time period.

The Doctor likes to play loose with his age. We've heard many different ages, some in conflict with each other. The current version of the Doctor is stating he is over 900 years old. The implications are that, if he doesn't burn through his regenerations, he can live to a much greater age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zikar

if you end up liking McGann you'll be out of luck since you'll never see him again.

Which is a shame really. Unless the audio series states otherwise, not having a clear span to his generation's life would allow him to run up a full life, like Doctor #1, before regenerating, and would allow for the current or next Doctor to have crossovers with the 8th. There would not need to be any excuse given for his aging, as there was when 10 met 5 briefly. Ultimately, it would give us a bit more screentime for 8.

Having said that, McGann has gone on record saying he hated the feel of the wig, and wasn't inclined to put it on again, unless they came up with a fix to the problem.

Thug_Two · 08-31-2011 02:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill

I do believe they've already gone with "That's more a guideline than a rule" already.

The new series (post-2005) has never mentioned a regeneration limit, and I believe one of the new Doctors outright stated that he can regenerate an arbitrary number of times. So I've been assuming they are ignoring the "you only get 12" (which, AIR, was said by Dr #4 in the 1970's, and the BBC probably never imagined the show would last long enough for it to be an issue).

The best semi-cannon reason for the change I've seen: Assume that Rassilon removed the 12-regeneration limit as a desperation move during the Dalek war.

DarkGob · 08-31-2011 02:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Thug_Two

The new series (post-2005) has never mentioned a regeneration limit, and I believe one of the new Doctors outright stated that he can regenerate an arbitrary number of times. So I've been assuming they are ignoring the "you only get 12" (which, AIR, was said by Dr #4 in the 1970's, and the BBC probably never imagined the show would last long enough for it to be an issue).

The best semi-cannon reason for the change I've seen: Assume that Rassilon removed the 12-regeneration limit as a desperation move during the Dalek war.

Eleven said that a Time Lord can regenerate indefinitely, but this was in The Sarah Jane Adventures. However, something that occurred in last week's episode (don't want to spoil it) strongly suggests otherwise.

Oh wait, somebody already spoiled it a couple posts up. Anyway, I don't see how [WHY HELLO SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS]River could have given the Doctor all of her regenerations if she can do it indefinitely.

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Tenzhi · 08-31-2011 02:58 PM

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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman

An outlier opinion, then. There's rarely uniformity in matters of taste.

I also rather liked End of Time.

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On the other hand, the Sixth Doctor, basically everyone's least favorite, was supposed to have some kind of psychological breakdown during his regeneration, one of producer Jonathan Nathan-Turner's worst ideas.

I liked Colin Baker's Doctor, craziness, garish outfit, and all. Peter Davison's was my least favourite Doctor.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

Lord_Nightblade · 08-31-2011 03:14 PM

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Originally Posted by DarkGob

Oh wait, somebody already spoiled it a couple posts up. Anyway, I don't see how [WHY HELLO SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS]River could have given the Doctor all of her regenerations if she can do it indefinitely.

Spoilery stuff below.

Well yeah, but River isn't a full on Time Lord, she's Human+. So maybe there was a limit to the number of regenerations she had. Alternatively, they could've said she used up all of her regenerations as a simpler way of saying that she poured all of her regenerative energy (or however that works) into the Doctor, and now has none left and can no longer regenerate.

Goodbye, I guess.

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Memphis_Bill · 08-31-2011 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade

Well yeah, but River isn't a full on Time Lord, she's Human+. So maybe there was a limit to the number of regenerations she had.

Welllllllllll.... if you listen to the Eight Doctor, he's human on his mother's side. But that, IIRC, kind of came out of nowhere.

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Lord_Nightblade · 08-31-2011 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill

Welllllllllll.... if you listen to the Eight Doctor, he's human on his mother's side. But that, IIRC, kind of came out of nowhere.

Eh, just spit-balling. I'm more inclined to believe that she sacrificed whatever mechanism allows her to regenerate.

Goodbye, I guess.

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Le Blanc · 08-31-2011 03:51 PM

So when they do the Regen or Renewal thing are they jumping into somebody elses body, who was already walking around and had a life, or do they just appear fully formed in a new body out of nowhere?

If having that info is a spoiler thing feel free to say so and I will wait till I see it on the shows. Think I will pick up the first season of 05 today.

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DarkGob · 08-31-2011 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Blanc

So when they do the Regen or Renewal thing are they jumping into somebody elses body, who was already walking around and had a life, or do they just appear fully formed in a new body out of nowhere?

If having that info is a spoiler thing feel free to say so and I will wait till I see it on the shows. Think I will pick up the first season of 05 today.

No, it's not Quantum Leap. Technically (in a wibbly-wobbly sort of way) the Eleventh Doctor has the same body as the First Doctor, just in a different form. Kinda-sorta. The new body isn't appearing out of nowhere, it's the existing body repairing and reforming itself. Basically think of it as a one-way shape shift that can (usually) only be performed at the moment of death.

It'll make more sense once you've seen it happen.

"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

DarkGob · 08-31-2011 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade

Spoilery stuff below.

Well yeah, but River isn't a full on Time Lord, she's Human+. So maybe there was a limit to the number of regenerations she had. Alternatively, they could've said she used up all of her regenerations as a simpler way of saying that she poured all of her regenerative energy (or however that works) into the Doctor, and now has none left and can no longer regenerate.

I thought the entire point was that being conceived within a Time Vortex made you a Time Lord regardless of your genetic origin.

And I don't think "I'm giving you all my regenerations (but what I actually mean is my ability to regenerate" is simpler than "I'm giving you my ability to regenerate". I think if they had meant that they would have just said it, but then it could just end up being a plot hole if they ever decide to address the Doctor's throw-away line from SJA on the main show.

"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

Tenzhi · 08-31-2011 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Blanc

So when they do the Regen or Renewal thing are they jumping into somebody elses body, who was already walking around and had a life, or do they just appear fully formed in a new body out of nowhere?

Their old body transforms into their new body. Basically, they macro their resurrection power with a costume change.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

Thug_Two · 08-31-2011 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGob

No, it's not Quantum Leap. Technically (in a wibbly-wobbly sort of way) the Eleventh Doctor has the same body as the First Doctor, just in a different form. Kinda-sorta. The new body isn't appearing out of nowhere, it's the existing body repairing and reforming itself. Basically think of it as a one-way shape shift that can (usually) only be performed at the moment of death.

It'll make more sense once you've seen it happen.

In the early days the SFX were very limited: The first few doctors regenerated off-camera. Then were some regenerations where they basically defocused the camera while looking at the old actor, and re-focused with the new one wearing the same clothes (it helped that he was usually lying down at the time).

In the 'modern' series they do it with a gold glowy effect and morphing software.

Hyperstrike · 08-31-2011 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Blanc

So when they do the Regen or Renewal thing are they jumping into somebody elses body, who was already walking around and had a life, or do they just appear fully formed in a new body out of nowhere?

If having that info is a spoiler thing feel free to say so and I will wait till I see it on the shows. Think I will pick up the first season of 05 today.

No. Still the same body. They're not body-snatchers. The process of massive repair that a Regeneration causes dramatically alters the appearance and general biology of the Time Lord. In the current series, they've addressed the issue of Time Lords actually changing gender with controlled regenerations.

During the reign of the 4th Doctor, the fellow "Time Lady" Romana went through SEVERAL appearance changes when voluntarily regenerating before settling on the likeness of someone she and The Doctor had previously encountered.

Now the real brain-wiggler. ALL of these various incarnations of the doctor are out there now(ish), bouncing around time and space, throughout the universe (in a non-linear, semi-subjective sense) simultaneously, without ever really "bumping into" one another (though this has happened on several occasions in canon).

In order:

The Three Doctors

The Five Doctors

The Two Doctors

Dimensions in Time

Time Crash

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Hyperstrike · 08-31-2011 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade

Eh, just spit-balling. I'm more inclined to believe that she sacrificed whatever mechanism allows her to regenerate.

Rule #1: The Doctor lies!

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Rodoan · 08-31-2011 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperstrike

Now the real brain-wiggler. ALL of these various incarnations of the doctor are out there now(ish), bouncing around time and space, throughout the universe (in a non-linear, semi-subjective sense) simultaneously, without ever really "bumping into" one another (though this has happened on several occasions in canon).

In order:

The Three Doctors

The Five Doctors

The Two Doctors

Dimensions in Time

Time Crash

Speaking of "bouncing around" you've got a few of your doctors out of place. I've adjusted the highlighted links above to help.

TrueGentleman · 08-31-2011 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill

Welllllllllll.... if you listen to the Eight Doctor, he's human on his mother's side. But that, IIRC, kind of came out of nowhere.

LA LA LA LA WE CANT HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA

(Yes, there are weird elements scattered throughout Doctor Who that aren't considered "canon" simply because everyone ignores them. Another example is the parade of never-before-seen-and-never-seen-again images of previous Doctors during the Time Lord "mind-bending" contest between the Fourth Doctor and Morbius in "The Brain of Morbius".)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperstrike

In order:

The Three Doctors Very good

The Five Doctors Pretty good

The Two Doctors Rather poor

Dimensions in Time Avoid at all costs

Time Crash Very good

These crossover episodes are a bit of a mixed bag. Probably not a good place to start Who-viewing, although they have a lot of fun moment. Pertwee's and Troughton's Doctors played off one another quite amusingly in The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors.