It's mostly Kb (and people who don't understand the difference between that an Kd/Ku). Even KB is fine, and if your something like energy blast or a peacebringer or bots MM, well, there's not much you can do. You ARE going to knock things back.
Generally, it's most annoying on melee characters who have their tagets knocked around by others and must constantly chase them down... or if someone knocks a whole group out of your AoE. And then there's the issue of ragdoll physics and angled walls (most notably caves of any sort) resulting in critters getting stuck in walls; particularly annoying on "defeat all"s.
Knockback isn't in and of its self bad, just that the people using it need to pay closer attention to what they are targeting and their relation to it (Knocking an entire group into a corner = happy team. Standing in the middle of a spawn and using a pbaoe to scatter it to the four winds = not so happy team mates.) And it is good mitigation; while they are flopping about on their backs, they aren't attacking.
Like most things, it's those that can't properly manage the knockback that mar the perception of the mechanic.
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Its not the comics to consider really, its the game mechanics. Many types of melee can't hit what they cannot reach. A knock back power, poorly played, scatters targets outside the melee range, reducing the team's effectiveness and possibly creating a dangerous situation (depending on the team) with opponents no longer grouped for mass extinction. This is magnified when the player slots their abilities for maximum kb. Possibly great for solo play, potentially disastrous for team play
I've not really heard of any griping against knock down nor knock up. Both ultimately drop the opponent right at your feet, offering several long seconds to get medieval on their backsides.
Only thing to say is if it is Knockdown, slotting it for Knock will turn it into Knockback. Also, using it on KB weak or lower level critters can turn KD into knockback.
Knockup, however is always knockup.
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I've never once seen a complaint about KD/KU (most people love those).
Knockback can be annoying for two situations: People that fight in melee, and people trying to use AoEs. For meleers, it can be a bit of annoyance, but people usually don't care unless they're having to spend more time chasing than they can spend actually attacking.
For people trying to use AoEs, it's much more annoying. Knocking a single target outside the AoE isn't a big deal, but using hand clap moments before someone shoots the spawn with Rain of Arrows/Inferno/any other AoE will screw over the team's performance, and can even lead to team wipes.
A third category is for people trying to hold aggro... I kinda view them as a combination of meleers and AoE, but regardless. If a tank has gathered the spawn around him and is holding the aggro and isn't in any serious damage... it's going to make his job much harder if you use an AoE knockback and scatter them all (say, running in with hurricane or repel!), potentially leading to him losing the aggro, and maybe even a team wipe (but probably slowing down performance at a minimum).
That's all bad usage of Knockback. You can also use it well! Like was already said, if you whack a spawn into a corner in a nice, easily AoE-able pile in a corner... that's going to be one happy team! But there's other things as well... a good while back I had a Energy Blast/Rad Corruptor. I'd drop the toggles on guys I'd think wouldn't be likely to die right away, and then I would circle those anchors, shooting any mobs futher out into the AoE debuffs (since it wasn't 100% chance for most of the powers, I'd often hit 'em multiple times). This did the reverse of what most people think about when they think about the Energy Blast power set... I'd actually help make the spawns tighter! I remember one time getting a tell complimenting me for my usage of Energy Blast! I doubt I did anywhere close to as much damage as I could have if I was Fire/, but I at least helped the team do more damage with their AoEs, plus made the Brutes job a bit easier.
So knockback isn't inherently bad. There are some powers that are really hard to use well, like the various claps, but even they have their appropriate corner cases (the 'oh ****' buttons for when you absolutely need to buy yourself a couple seconds). KB gets its negative rap since no other mechanic (except detention field-style powers) can really mess with your own team in such a way.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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It would be my experience that the only way you DON'T have issue with this is because you are the one doing the KB. |
Originally Posted by thgebull0425
I have no issues with any of these..
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KB is only good is your a solo player.
If my AoE spell will do 100 dmg on say 10 targets ( 1000 dmg total) and you blow them up so I only hit one target for 100 dmg, you have robbed me of 900 dmg. How can you NOT see that as a problem?
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The bolded by me part is FALSE. And horrible grammar.
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Originally Posted by OutaControl
It would be my experience that the only way you DON'T have issue with this is because you are the one doing the KB.
KB is only good is your a solo player. If my AoE spell will do 100 dmg on say 10 targets ( 1000 dmg total) and you blow them up so I only hit one target for 100 dmg, you have robbed me of 900 dmg. How can you NOT see that as a problem? |
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Because that is the fault of the player with knockback, not the fault of the knockback property.|
Originally Posted by OutaControl
It would be my experience that the only way you DON'T have issue with this is because you are the one doing the KB.
KB is only good is your a solo player. If my AoE spell will do 100 dmg on say 10 targets ( 1000 dmg total) and you blow them up so I only hit one target for 100 dmg, you have robbed me of 900 dmg. How can you NOT see that as a problem? |
I have played with a few excellent /stormies. When they are good, they can take two spawns, and trap all 20+ of the mobs into one small corner faster than a tank can herd them. This is knockback used well, and making a team more efficient.
Knock is like a car, drive to the store and it is great. Drive over your neighbor and it is murder. If you personally can't use knock, or you play with people who can't, then it is the lack of skill that is the problem. This is why blind people are not allowed to drive. Car's aren't bad, but not all people should be allowed to drive. Knock isn't bad, but not everyone should be using it.
I'll come right out and say I would prefer if knock was removed from 90% or more of the powers that have it. But when I team with someone who knows what they are doing, I really appreciate it.
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/this. Many times over. |
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
The bolded by me part is FALSE. And horrible grammar.
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Other than the aforementioned "help group stuff against a wall," you can also:
- Go onto maps with drops. (Such as the ruined city, most familiar from Dreck.) Get between the drop and the mobs. Knock mobs away from the drop (and together, typically.)
- Teaming with an Ice tank, or something with slows? Sure, they'll follow... and in a nice, slow, spread out line. Get behind them, use AOE KB - they're pushed ahead and clumped.
- In non-cave maps, spawns don't tend to stay "clumped." You take one side, the tank takes the other (or the ice patch is laid down, etc.) Knock them together. Enjoy.
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Why? Because witches have storm powers and storm powers cause knockback.
So don't make Jesus sad, just say no to knockback.
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@Starflier
I see how it is a problem for meleers and for AoE, but my issue is if someone took the power, then why not use it. Besides, a good team will be able to compensate for spread out opponents and shouldn't really be an issue. If you got, use it I say.
I have been on the melee side of things, and oh well, chase em, smash em. Agreed though, in some of the maps, it can be a bit of a problem. Shouldn't get rid of it.
Yes, but not every power is a every situation kind of thing...
Would (Should) an emp defender use a heal when the whole team is at 100% health?
Would a blaster use a nuke if here were one minion in the battle?
I would prefer to not have to chase things down (as a melee or ranged character) to go defeat them. Essentially, there's a time to use every type of power. Some powers are meant to be used often, and others, not so much.
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By all means, use it! The consensus of the thread is "use it intelligently".|
Originally Posted by thgebull0425
I see how it is a problem for meleers and for AoE, but my issue is if someone took the power, then why not use it. Besides, a good team will be able to compensate for spread out opponents and shouldn't really be an issue. If you got, use it I say.
I have been on the melee side of things, and oh well, chase em, smash em. Agreed though, in some of the maps, it can be a bit of a problem. Shouldn't get rid of it. |
Push mobs that stayed at range into the melee fray! Estimate the max radius of the PBAoE KB and push half a spread-out mob into the other half! Use map geometry to your advantage (keeping in mind the sloped walls and stuck critters thing)!
If the power in question is, say, Nova - jump ahead of the group, Aim, build-up (if available), and nuke that spawn! Dosn't matter if they scatter, because most of the spawn will be dead, what few LT's and bosses survive will be finished off quickly anyway.
All we ask is that you don't be a head covering fashioned from a donkey. Don't turn on hurricane and jump into the middle of a spawn or someone's location based AoE unless you can guarantee they won't be scattered (usually an AoE immobilize of some kind will give the enemies KB and repel protection/resistance).
Most teams can deal with a scattered spawn, yes, but it makes AoEs less effective (mobs are no longer tightly packed, fewer targets hit per power activation) and who ever's on aggro control (tanking or mezzing) will have a much harder time keeping the attention off the squishies.
I took Black Hole on my MM - does that mean I should use it all the time? no - It's an "oh ****" power that I have on hand for when my pants-on-head-stupid zombies aggro a mob or two more than the team can handle. Using it all the time will only serve to annoy team mates by slowing things down to a crawl.
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The proper way to "compensate" is to not use your powers poorly.
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Originally Posted by thgebull0425
I see how it is a problem for meleers and for AoE, but my issue is if someone took the power, then why not use it. Besides, a good team will be able to compensate for spread out opponents and shouldn't really be an issue. If you got, use it I say.
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Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper
By all means, use it! The consensus of the thread is "use it intelligently".
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Originally Posted by rsclark
The proper way to "compensate" is to not use your powers poorly.
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KB powers just happen to make it easier for poor usage to annoy the rest of the team.
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Yes, a good team probably could compensate for a poor player scattering mobs with KB, but that player is having a very noticeable effect on the speed and efficiency of the team. Someone who uses KB indiscriminately and scatters mobs drastically reduces the ability of a tanker to control aggro, of an AOE heavy team to eliminate mobs quickly, a debuffer to debuff a spawn and of a controller to control.|
Originally Posted by thgebull0425
I see how it is a problem for meleers and for AoE, but my issue is if someone took the power, then why not use it. Besides, a good team will be able to compensate for spread out opponents and shouldn't really be an issue. If you got, use it I say.
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If you're playing a set with KB either learn to use it effectively or play another set. Otherwise don't be surprised if you wind up on people's "don't team with this person" lists.
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| I have been on the melee side of things, and oh well, chase em, smash em. Agreed though, in some of the maps, it can be a bit of a problem. Shouldn't get rid of it. |
A GOOD player will use KB to bunch mobs closely together allowing the team to kill them faster. A BAD player will use KB to scatter that tight group to the far corners of the map. Guess which one is more common?
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I love knockback. I have been on so many teams with people that have no idea how to really use it effectivly that I just go with the flow. If it takes more time to get through missions, so be it.
On my Energy/Energy blaster, I slot for knockback. I also have energy torrent and explosive blast slotted with Air Burst. Makes me giggle like a school girl to throw whole mobs around. Of course I also know how to use that knockback for the benifet of the team.
On my Ninja/Storm MM, which I never team with anymore, I have hurricane running all the time, and 2 tornados chasing mobs everywhere. I revel in the chaos I can create running missions set for 8 people.
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
I wished that knockback would happen on the finishing blow if excessive damage was done, assuming the power used either had knockback or could be slotted for it.
Just imagine defeated critters being scattered left and right as a raged up Brute or a Scrapper in lock mode plunges into a crowd.
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All nice that knockback is great for solo and survivability, in big teams its bad. Quite some tanks rely on having mobs in melee, willpower for regen, inv for defense, shield/ice for defense/damage-debuff, soon energy for recharge.|
Originally Posted by Psycho_Sarah
I love knockback. I have been on so many teams with people that have no idea how to really use it effectivly that I just go with the flow. If it takes more time to get through missions, so be it.
On my Energy/Energy blaster, I slot for knockback. I also have energy torrent and explosive blast slotted with Air Burst. Makes me giggle like a school girl to throw whole mobs around. Of course I also know how to use that knockback for the benifet of the team. On my Ninja/Storm MM, which I never team with anymore, I have hurricane running all the time, and 2 tornados chasing mobs everywhere. I revel in the chaos I can create running missions set for 8 people. |
Unless someone is a very very accurate knockbacker, the chance someone will knock away a mob from tank's melee is far worse then keeping down a few mobs (wich most tanks can do also with a nice knockdown - or earth trollers).
A good knockback player will pick up the mobs that might hurt the tank most (psi mobs, debuffers) and will take it down. It will keep the mobs busy that the tank cant get in time.
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The key word there is "team". If you're just going to use your powers without any regard for the rest of the team, then you need to be soloing and not playing on a team. |
Originally Posted by thgebull0425
I see how it is a problem for meleers and for AoE, but my issue is if someone took the power, then why not use it. Besides, a good team will be able to compensate for spread out opponents and shouldn't really be an issue. If you got, use it I say.
I have been on the melee side of things, and oh well, chase em, smash em. Agreed though, in some of the maps, it can be a bit of a problem. Shouldn't get rid of it. |
The chasing part for melee is annoying, but the more problematic part is when KB is used to spread aggro which causes the team to do much less damage due to inability to make efficient use of AoE's and can cause deaths because squishies are now getting beat up by mobs that the tank could be holding aggro on or that would already be dead from the AoE's. For the annoying chase part, I have an easy solution. If I'm on my scrapper and someone with KB keeps knocking back my targets, then after a few times of that happening I'll just start moving onto other targets. Don't draw aggro you can't handle. So if you're going to keep knocking back my targets, then you better be able to handle the resulting aggro and finish those mobs off.
I usually play only on PUGs so I ended up teamed with a wide variety of people and, like others have said, very few people with KB powers seem to know how to use them well and effectively for the benefit of the team. When you do come across the people who know how to use KB well, it's pretty amazing to see sometimes. I will definitely throw compliments to a KB player if they are knocking guys onto an ice slick or performing crowd control with their KB. Stormies can be really bad, especially with an inexperienced player, but a good Stormie is quite a sight to behold. I've also seen some really good FFers that use the KB and repel powers in that set to do some great crowd control.
Sometimes though, all it takes is a little adjustment and communication. I play my ice controller a lot and ice slick becomes pretty much useless with an energy blaster. So inside of opening with ice slick, I'll open with glacier or frostbite once the tank or brute has drawn the alpha strike so I can try to lock down the mobs and let the energy blaster go to town on them. I'll end up using ice slick more for secondary mitigation instead of an opener on those teams.
KB isn't the only power that can be used to the detriment of the team, it's just one of the most noticeable ones. If I'm playing that same ice controller and using frostbite on a spread out spawn constantly and locking them in place far apart then I'd be preventing effective use of AoE's as well. If I'm on my scrapper and I'm running off 20 yards from the rest of the team to beat up on a lowly minion instead of a boss or lt. (and I see THAT a LOT) or I'm off trying to "solo" spawns instead of dealing damage with the rest of the team to keep the squishies safe, then I'm not helping the team either. If you're just interesting in doing your own thing and you're not using your powers in a way that helps the team, then you're just not being a good teammate, plain and simple....and sooner or later, you'll start getting yourself kicked from teams.
Why all the issues regarding this? I think it's a part of comics and superheroes and villains. I have no issues with any of these.
So just curious, why the negativity surrounding these.