I'm with Sam. If the changes to RWZ required as much work as the changes to Faultline then something is dreadfully wrong with the way things are being done.
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And not every zone needs an entire revamp to make it new.
With Dark Astoria they can make arcs that show how the zone use to be as a history lesson, or they can write new stories involving trying to help those who survived and are trying to escape the zone. It's not rocket science.
Same with the shard. They don't need to bulldoze it to simply add arcs.
When I (speaking for myself only) say revamp, I mean revamping the zone so that there is actually a reason to go there.
The choice to revamp Atlas was understandable so that it matches the upped graphical look of GR. However, had they simply added the new story arcs to the existing atlas and OROBROUS'd the old arcs I would have been happy.
A revamp doesn't necessarily mean the zone itself needs to change. I'd argue that the ACTUAL ARCs you put in a zone matter more seeing as how we spend literally NO TIME actually IN THE ZONES themselves.
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I think they mean the time it took to build up Faultline (zone changes, new arcs, adding new mobs, etc) was equal to the time it took to build the new arcs (new maps, new arcs, shifting mobs around, etc).|
Originally Posted by Venture
I'm with Sam. If the changes to RWZ required as much work as the changes to Faultline then something is dreadfully wrong with the way things are being done.
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And even if that is the case there is nothing wrong with alternating it between issues. One issue you focus on revamping an existing zone (revamping DOES NOT have to mean bulldoze, simply add new arcs or update the arcs like they did in PI), and the next you can add a new zone/completely change/Galaxy City/Atlas Park a zone.
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So, I think some of us (me included) may be guilty of still thinking of what they could do in terms of the Freem 15 days. "They could just add arcs to the zone without updating it" or "they could cobble together a new powerset set from existing animations" is something you do when you're horribly short on resources and trying to keep the game alive, not when you've got 50 people and are trying to appeal to a new market.
I think the devs may feel that if they're going to do anything, they're going to dive into it whole-heartedly, and devote everyone they can to it. That means that if they decide they're going to update Dark Astoria, they aren't just going to ask the mission designers to make a bunch of missions-- they're going to ask the art team to update the zone, and likely the enemies in the zone, visually. We may feel that's not necessary (or perhaps even undesirable!) but I think that's what they will want to do. I think that's why they are saying it takes the same amount of work to update a zone as create a new one.
My personal opinion is that, before we see brand new zones added to the game, I'd rather see current unused/empty zones with established lore brought up to the level of the used/popular zones. I don't need to see an update to Striga or Croatoa or most city zones, but Dark Astoria and the Shadow Shard have enormous unused potential in terms of the game lore. Faultline and the RWZ were fantastic projects, and while we technically "lost" the old versions of the zones, we kept the spirit of the zones, which was what was important about them, and most importantly, we now have a reason to be there besides street sweeping and the occasional door mission from other zones' contacts.
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I didn't get pics of those. It's possible that someone else did. It's also possible that Posi or Zwillinger will post them somewhere.
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Fortune
So there was mention of quick snapshots of either the Gunslinger outfit(s) or the new backpacks.. Have said snapshots been posted yet?
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Maybe YOU don't, but I spend a lot of time in zones. Missions, and the too few map tilesets, are too repetitious (nature of MMOs, sadly), so I do spend some time saving citizens out on the streets. Depending on where, the scenery at least is more varied or at least I can vary it as I see fit. I'd like to see some new store fronts, and I would like to see some more interiors (could have a chance of a robbery taking place INSIDE). But, a guess based on general player chatter, I'm one of the very few that immerses myself into the game world.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
A revamp doesn't necessarily mean the zone itself needs to change. I'd argue that the ACTUAL ARCs you put in a zone matter more seeing as how we spend literally NO TIME actually IN THE ZONES themselves.
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But you do need 8 to start. You don't need 8 to finish an Apex, or Tin mage (those have neen duo'ed) and give threads/shards/astrals. Heck, you don't even need 8 to finish Lambdas, as those have also been duo'ed.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Unless I'm mistaken, to FINISH them, no you don't.
Which was my point. |
So what exactly is your point about a non small group friendly option for incarnates? As thats already been set up?
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That's a ridiculously disingenuous arguement, because you know darn well that 90% of the game population will never build characters capable of that. It's a very small cross-section that is, that relies on AT selection, IOs and yes, incarnate powers.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
But you do need 8 to start. You don't need 8 to finish an Apex, or Tin mage (those have neen duo'ed) and give threads/shards/astrals. Heck, you don't even need 8 to finish Lambdas, as those have also been duo'ed.
So what exactly is your point about a non small group friendly option for incarnates? As thats already been set up? |
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Yes but if they are going in and revamping arcs, (or in some instances adding them for the first time to zones like Dark Astoria) one would hope the tiles sets would part of those arc revamps/additions. Or at least using little used maps to add some variety.|
Originally Posted by Gaming_Glen
Maybe YOU don't, but I spend a lot of time in zones. Missions, and the too few map tilesets, are too repetitious (nature of MMOs, sadly), so I do spend some time saving citizens out on the streets. Depending on where, the scenery at least is more varied or at least I can vary it as I see fit. I'd like to see some new store fronts, and I would like to see some more interiors (could have a chance of a robbery taking place INSIDE). But, a guess based on general player chatter, I'm one of the very few that immerses myself into the game world.
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I'm assuming it's easier to revamp those than it is to edit whole city blocks or buildings. But I could be wrong.
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My point was that you don't always need to run with an 8 man team. For SOME content you are required to have it, however you don't need it for all content.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
But you do need 8 to start. You don't need 8 to finish an Apex, or Tin mage (those have neen duo'ed) and give threads/shards/astrals. Heck, you don't even need 8 to finish Lambdas, as those have also been duo'ed.
So what exactly is your point about a non small group friendly option for incarnates? As thats already been set up? |
Also my other point was that it doesn't take that long to form a team.
And I wouldn't base what's possible with a small handful of builds on the average of what's possible with lambdas.
and there ISN'T any small group Incarnate content yet. my comments weren't about what we already have.
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I think that the barbarian outfits actually look pretty nice.
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THANK YOU, finally somebody said it!|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Since when is soloing easier than teaming? If anything the opposite is true, teams often tend to be steamrollers.
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Teams aren't harder - they're more tedious & maybe patience-wrecking = Not Exactly => "Harder"...
(That is, of course just my opinion on the matter)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
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Thing is, Aura_Familia pointed out being able to complete the RSF and LGTF with less then 8 people. Which last i checked, would rely on IOs and incarnate powers. I'd love to see a team of 6 people do a RSF on SOs, but its just not going to happen without cherry picking the team to specific means like having those 6 people as 1 stone brute/tanker and 5 corruptors/defenders. |
Originally Posted by Feycat
That's a ridiculously disingenuous arguement, because you know darn well that 90% of the game population will never build characters capable of that. It's a very small cross-section that is, that relies on AT selection, IOs and yes, incarnate powers.
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The apex/tin mage also need 8 to start, but can be completed with less. My examples are the extremes, where people 2 man'ed apex (which was before the judgement/destiny/lore slots being unlocked mind you) to just show you that it is possible. Which the fact they have allowed 8 man teams (Apex, Tin mage, Lambda) to progress though the incarnate system at a decent pace, due to converting shards for free, providing threads as a reward, and allowing you to even run itrials (lambda) with a minimal 8 man team.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
My point was that you don't always need to run with an 8 man team. For SOME content you are required to have it, however you don't need it for all content.
Also my other point was that it doesn't take that long to form a team. And I wouldn't base what's possible with a small handful of builds on the average of what's possible with lambdas. and there ISN'T any small group Incarnate content yet. my comments weren't about what we already have. |
But yea, teams aren't hard to form, either for the normal TFs, Apex/Tin Mage, or even the trials. A solo option would be nice, as long as its not any faster then the current options are have (being trials) With the fact we get threads from apex/tin mage, shard drops have increased, and they are going to give more threads with the Sig story arcs that alone cuts the non trial option down massively.
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At a bare minimum, they have to ditch the high heels. Either that or call them furry go-go boots and drop any reference implying some sort of primitive origin.|
Originally Posted by Dal
I think that the barbarian outfits actually look pretty nice.
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I've known women who wore high-heeled boots as a fashion statement, so I know the discomfort that they put themselves through in the name of fashion. I tend to snicker at any superhero boot that incorporates high heels as it stands currently. The idea of a "barbarian" in high heels is just too over the top to consider, IMO. If they stay the way they are then I won't be spending my paragon points on them.
People turn a jaded eye to Red Sonja's trademark chainmail bikini as it is. Can you imagine if she was wearing six inch heels, swinging a giant sword or axe with her butt up in the air? (That's what heels are for, you know - to make a woman's derrierre stick out and make her sexually appealing. Take a look at a woman's posture before and after putting on heels, especially bending at the waist over a desk, if you doubt this. They were designed by men for the enjoyment of men.)
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Surely you can't be as dense as this sounds. Really, I know you're a smart poster, but the above sounds just really dumb.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Small group incarnate content? Isn't that considered any team size of an alpha unlocked level 50 character? You can get shards from any level range now, so once you unlock the alpha slot, you start earning shards off kills, and you can use shards to progress through the incarnate system. Granted, it is much slower then running trials, but as I've already mentioned, there are team content that can be run with smaller team sizes.
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Shards gathered in non-endgame content are an absolutely atrocious way to progress Incarnate abilities. I consider it slow for Alpha abilities, and I consider it not even worth doing for post-Alpha abilities.
When people say "small group Incarnate content", they mean something you don't need a league for that gives iProgress rates that don't have completely a different zip code from those found in iTrials. It doesn't have to be as good, but they want something better than collecting Shards in standard content.
I use shards I get in standard content to supplement my iTrial progress. Shards converted to Threads make a nice buffer to get characters some common Incarnate abilities slotted early after the slots are unlocked, or maybe unlocked a bit earlier by spending a few Threads on iXP. Given that I am willing to run iTrials, I look at the comparative rates of progress available to people who don't (for whatever reason) and I really do feel sorry for them. They should not progress as fast as someone like me who is running iTrials like there's no tomorrow, but I don't think they should progress as slow as they do now. (And very few people have asked for rates that compare with someone who runs iTrials.) Creating some sort of dedicated, but non-League, content with better explicit Incarnate rewards could shrink that gap without going overboard.
Edit: Before someone asks why they need Incarnate abilities if they don't want to run iTrials (it's been asked many times before) - the answer is because the Incarnate abilities are there. Anyone asking that question completely fails to grasp the achiever mindset. They see the reward and want it because it exists as a reward. Creating a reward with one path to acquisition that's tied to the notion of walking that path is going to irritate anyone who doesn't like the path. It's not a design paradigm I'd recommend to anyone.
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How do you know that the boot doesn't come in the regular/large/spiked/stilleto/whatever versions that most of the boots come in?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
I've known women who wore high-heeled boots as a fashion statement, so I know the discomfort that they put themselves through in the name of fashion. I tend to snicker at any superhero boot that incorporates high heels as it stands currently. The idea of a "barbarian" in high heels is just too over the top to consider, IMO. If they stay the way they are then I won't be spending my paragon points on them.
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Global name: @k26dp
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*shrug* If they do, or they are changed to such, I'll try them on for size and possibly reconsider.|
Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
How do you know that the boot doesn't come in the regular/large/spiked/stilleto/whatever versions that most of the boots come in?
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A better question would be, "If they come in those variations then why go to the biggest gaming convention of the year and display the least authentic version of them?"
The only reasonable answer i can infer is that they don't come in those other flavors at the current time. I won't completely discount the possibility that those other varieties exist and the guy who put that presentation together just has a thing for girls in heels. I like to think that the marketing department is a bit more savvy or at least a bit more thorough than that.
The only other answer I can come up with is one that I don't care for - that someone upstream was correct and Paragon Studios is currently suffering from a serious case of group-think.
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Actually they were first invented for entirely practical reasons like to make riding a horse with stirrups easier (think cowboy boots) and also to protect the feet of wearers from dirt and mud or just to make short people look taller. Even when they became so high and stylized that they were merely fashion statements they were worn by both men and women for hundreds of years. Also, apparently a woman, Queen Catherine de' Medici of France, seems to have come up with the design of the fashionable version or at least commissioned it.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
At a bare minimum, they have to ditch the high heels. Either that or call them furry go-go boots and drop any reference implying some sort of primitive origin.
I've known women who wore high-heeled boots as a fashion statement, so I know the discomfort that they put themselves through in the name of fashion. I tend to snicker at any superhero boot that incorporates high heels as it stands currently. The idea of a "barbarian" in high heels is just too over the top to consider, IMO. If they stay the way they are then I won't be spending my paragon points on them. People turn a jaded eye to Red Sonja's trademark chainmail bikini as it is. Can you imagine if she was wearing six inch heels, swinging a giant sword or axe with her butt up in the air? (That's what heels are for, you know - to make a woman's derrierre stick out and make her sexually appealing. Take a look at a woman's posture before and after putting on heels, especially bending at the waist over a desk, if you doubt this. They were designed by men for the enjoyment of men.) |
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I would have inferred that they were using those to appeal to the "boys". And are you actually using authenticity with regards to a super hero game? |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
*shrug* If they do, or they are changed to such, I'll try them on for size and possibly reconsider.
A better question would be, "If they come in those variations then why go to the biggest gaming convention of the year and display the least authentic version of them?" The only reasonable answer i can infer is that they don't come in those other flavors at the current time. I won't completely discount the possibility that those other varieties exist and the guy who put that presentation together just has a thing for girls in heels. I like to think that the marketing department is a bit more savvy or at least a bit more thorough than that. The only other answer I can come up with is one that I don't care for - that someone upstream was correct and Paragon Studios is currently suffering from a serious case of group-think. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Agreed partially. However the most I've ever gotten in terms of shards are 3/hour, even with the increased drops. In terms of progression beyond Alpha I consider shards a non-starter.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Thing is, Aura_Familia pointed out being able to complete the RSF and LGTF with less then 8 people. Which last i checked, would rely on IOs and incarnate powers. I'd love to see a team of 6 people do a RSF on SOs, but its just not going to happen without cherry picking the team to specific means like having those 6 people as 1 stone brute/tanker and 5 corruptors/defenders.
The apex/tin mage also need 8 to start, but can be completed with less. My examples are the extremes, where people 2 man'ed apex (which was before the judgement/destiny/lore slots being unlocked mind you) to just show you that it is possible. Which the fact they have allowed 8 man teams (Apex, Tin mage, Lambda) to progress though the incarnate system at a decent pace, due to converting shards for free, providing threads as a reward, and allowing you to even run itrials (lambda) with a minimal 8 man team. Small group incarnate content? Isn't that considered any team size of an alpha unlocked level 50 character? You can get shards from any level range now, so once you unlock the alpha slot, you start earning shards off kills, and you can use shards to progress through the incarnate system. Granted, it is much slower then running trials, but as I've already mentioned, there are team content that can be run with smaller team sizes. But yea, teams aren't hard to form, either for the normal TFs, Apex/Tin Mage, or even the trials. A solo option would be nice, as long as its not any faster then the current options are have (being trials) With the fact we get threads from apex/tin mage, shard drops have increased, and they are going to give more threads with the Sig story arcs that alone cuts the non trial option down massively. |
A small teams or solo option is still coming thankfully.
EDIT: And I missed the first half of your post. A team of SOs with 6 did in fact regularly complete the RSF.
They HAD TO. Why?
Unless I mis-remembering the RSF came out BEFORE IOs. Issue 7 vs Issue 9. Purples came out later. And I distinctly remember VARIOUS team make ups of less than 8 (cause of folks often not making it to end of it with all 8 intact) being able to do it.
EDIT: Actually there is no miss-remembering about it. I'm correct:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_7#...ure_of_Freedom
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What kind of things did they have to say about PVP since it was apparently brought up?
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That's not the only reason, though. There's:|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Edit: Before someone asks why they need Incarnate abilities if they don't want to run iTrials (it's been asked many times before) - the answer is because the Incarnate abilities are there. Anyone asking that question completely fails to grasp the achiever mindset. They see the reward and want it because it exists as a reward. Creating a reward with one path to acquisition that's tied to the notion of walking that path is going to irritate anyone who doesn't like the path. It's not a design paradigm I'd recommend to anyone.
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- Preparation for future content. If they finally DO come out with something other than GrindTrials for Incarnates to do, I don't want to be stuck back at square 1 before being able to do... well, much of anything.
- FInishing a character. These were presented (among other things) as a way of getting "more levels without increasing the level cap." I don't know of too many people that are "finished" at 20, 30, or 40.
- Finishing/fleshing out a concept. Lore comes to mind here, with two different pets really accentuating the difference between two different characters for me. Two Peacebringers. One would have Polar Lights fit perfectly, the other, the Storm Elementals. Even if I just sit at Tier1, that's a fair bit of work and time to unlock... and if I try to do it by shards? Yeah. Right.
And there's those who just want to push their character to the peak of what they can be.
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I suppose one can argue that with what they did to Atlas Park, the development team would be gunning to revamp all other major zones for a consistent feel. One must, however, also argue that in light of what they did to Mercy Island, that is not always necessarily the case. If anything, though, I would agree that Paragon City needs to be prettier and the Rogue Isles need to be LESS PRETTY. There's no excuse why Cap Au Diable would lag for me after six years when I'm running a GeForce GTX580 card on an I7 processor with 8GB of ram when it is a zone that's still six years old and untouched. And I'm not even running ambient occlusion, bloom or blurry eyes.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
I think the devs may feel that if they're going to do anything, they're going to dive into it whole-heartedly, and devote everyone they can to it. That means that if they decide they're going to update Dark Astoria, they aren't just going to ask the mission designers to make a bunch of missions-- they're going to ask the art team to update the zone, and likely the enemies in the zone, visually. We may feel that's not necessary (or perhaps even undesirable!) but I think that's what they will want to do. I think that's why they are saying it takes the same amount of work to update a zone as create a new one.
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If the argument were that any zone the development team ever touch will have to be remade to be current and not blocky, then we have to figure out what Mercy Island means for that notion.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Not high heels - they're a dragging danger - when you're riding, the heels should be low.
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Originally Posted by Irresponsible
Actually they were first invented for entirely practical reasons like to make riding a horse with stirrups easier
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Of course, I wish I'd had more time, but that's the way. If I'd nitpicked it to death, no one would have gotten a new Rikti tray set, so it was worth it.
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