Damage will fix it
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-08-23 06:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
*sigh*
Guess I'll start making the popcorn...
Obvious Troll is obvious.
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You really want to get your numbers correct or at least within a small margin of error if you're going to make sweeping generalisations based on very limited data - but ideally, you shouldn't make sweeping generalisations based on very limited data.
Spad, I've seen other posts by the OP and I think he is unfortunately being serious.
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Oh dear.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Spad, I've seen other posts by the OP and I think he is unfortunately being serious.
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This. You're only including part of the picture, totally ignoring... you know... the powers.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
You really want to get your numbers correct or at least within a small margin of error if you're going to make sweeping generalisations based on very limited data - but ideally, you shouldn't make sweeping generalisations based on very limited data.
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Also, your presentation kinda sucks. If you're going to list a variety of numbers you might... you know... wanna actually say wtf those numbers are (I know because I already know those numbers, but obviously you're not writing them for someone that doesn't know them). The way it looks now, it would give one the impression that you really don't know what the numbers mean, since you kinda lumped stuff unrelated together in a way that makes them look like they are.
ps. pancakes
Edit: Also, don't conflate mechanics like criticals/containment/scourge with a +damage mechanic! They work drastically different, and when you seem to be implying the world lives at the damage cap already, one will have an impact and the other won't!
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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You calculated criticals wrong for Scrapper and Stalker. And forgot to include them for Banes and Widows.
For Scrapper/Stalker it's a percent chance of double damage, not counting the 100% Hidden the Stalkers,Banes and Widows have.
You mention the Tankers -res but leave out the SoA -res
With the recent change to Brute fury and damage cap it is impossible for a Brute to ever out damage a Scrapper
VEATs vs Khelds, again the -res and Hidden Crits push Veats ahead of Khelds for Damage dealing, although a Warshade with Essences would probably match VEAT output
Stalkers are not the ultimate Damage Dealer, they consistently fall behind Scrapper output, and Brutes can catch up to them quickly enough.
This will be my favorite thread of the day. Thanks Nightchill_EU.
Powers matter, tho a LOT of powers are accessibles to many ATs (or are clones).
My presentation probaly sucks but what if random people that reads that assume its not damage scale but "the damage that an attack does" how wrong would it be? At some point in the whole bucket of powers, pools and patrons the damage scale number pretty much summarise the damage potential of an AT.
As for special AT abilities, 10% do deal double damage is, in the long run, 10% damage increase. The scourge curve leans towerd 17%. The calculation on Defiance have to be calculated for every single possible (or optimal) ST cycle for every set but looking at the way it works I would be extremely surprise if its overall far from 10%.
As for the numbers (and the staments) I'd be more than happy if you can prove me wrong. And I am, unfortunatly, dead serious.
PS: The human spec Kheld part is maybe trollish I have to admit.
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You claim Stalkers are the kings of damage, but their damage is almost exclusively ST damage (+1 melee cone)- in a large team, ST damage is generally not what you're wanting so much as AoE. Point being: situation matters.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Powers matter, tho a LOT of powers are accessibles to many ATs (or are clones).
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There's also other things, like how my Bane can do, IIRC, -60% res to all (-80% res to toxic) on a ST enemy (-20% to a group), which will massively boost the amount of damage done (by me as well as everyone else), and is by no means equivalent to a +60% damage buff!
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| My presentation probaly sucks but what if random people that reads that assume its not damage scale but "the damage that an attack does" how wrong would it be? At some point in the whole bucket of powers, pools and patrons the damage scale number pretty much summarise the damage potential of an AT. |
Base 125 - Max 562,5
If I didn't know what I knew, I'd simply have assumed that "it" started at 125, and went up to 562.5. That paints a much different picture, and is why it's so misleading.
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| As for special AT abilities, 10% do deal double damage is, in the long run, 10% damage increase. The scourge curve leans towerd 17%. The calculation on Defiance have to be calculated for every single possible (or optimal) ST cycle for every set but looking at the way it works I would be extremely surprise if its overall far from 10%. |
But, with all that said: These numbers really don't matter. CoH is not a hard enough game that the majority of the player base even needs to care! These numbers are really only for people that min/max because they enjoy that sort of thing (or, people like me, that like numbers, but totally ignore them when playing).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Oh man.
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It wasn't even the numbers with which I had the contention; it was with the subjective and flawed analyses of each archetype. Should this hypothetical uninformed forum reader take what was written at face value, then the OP would have done them a disservice.
Which is why posts like that need to be killed with scorn, fire, and Sonic Blasts, the last of which I'll be slotting with -Res enhancements, as per the OP's suggestion.
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They are the kings of melee damage according to the rating system being used in beta. Mind you, the same system says doms are more squishy then blasters, so YMMV.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
You claim Stalkers are the kings of damage, but their damage is almost exclusively ST damage (+1 melee cone)- in a large team, ST damage is generally not what you're wanting so much as AoE. Point being: situation matters.
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In most typical situations you face enemies of differing hit point totals and so you want both ST and AoE damage on the team. It being a team, it doesn't matter if everyone on the team can do both. That said, the title of "damage king" usually refers to someone able to post up the biggest total damage numbers in the shortest time and yeah, that's going to be those ATs that have access to a lot of AoE.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
You claim Stalkers are the kings of damage, but their damage is almost exclusively ST damage (+1 melee cone)- in a large team, ST damage is generally not what you're wanting so much as AoE. Point being: situation matters.
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OP is also seriously misrepresenting the Stalker inherent by mentioning "30ish" percent criticals on a full team. In practice, you don't get anywhere close to this over the course of a mission or Task Force. 31% is the maximum and will only be your average crit rate if you can somehow manage the feat of keeping SEVEN other teammates within 30 feet of you at ALL times. Needless to say... that isn't happening unless those seven are running on the other seven PCs in your eight-box CoH setup and are on auto-follow.
A much more reasonably likely figure for a Stalker's average crit rate would be something in the 18-22% range, including both random and controlled crits. Good, but barely enough to match (let alone exceed) a Scrapper's higher base damage modifier and then only if you ignore the usual disparity in AoE potential between the two ATs or the fact that on average the Stalker will lose somewhat more performance to deaths than the Scrapper will owing to the Stalker's lower hit points.
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Man, it would be nice if you atleast got the base damage values right.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Just to enlight people asking about damage and to close some common misconceptions:
Blaster: Base 125 - Max 562,5 (Defiance is hard to quatifie but its somewhere close to 10%) Scrapper: Base 125 - Max 562,5 (Almost 10% more with criticals because minions doesnt matter) Corruptor: Base 75 - Max 375 (Close to 17% overall on big targets) Controller: Base 55 - Max 220 (Double if Containment) Defender: Base 65 - Max 260 Mastermind: Base 55 - Max 220 (Melee Pet is 100 base to 400 Max but this only applies to tier 8 pet. Other pets gets very lower damage scale due to lower level) Tanker: Base 80 - Max 320 Brute: Base 75 - Max 581,25 Dominator: Base 105 - Max 420 (Melee attack is very slightly lower, Domination doesnt affect damage anymore) Kheldian: Human Base 85 - Max 340 Nova Base 120 - Max 480 Dwarf Base 100 - Max 400 VEAT: Base 100 - Max 400 Stalker: Base 100 - Max 500 (Roughly 10% more with critical, 30ish in a full team with noone ******* around. AS doesnt affect overall damage in any meaningfull way) |
Blasters are only 1.125, not 1.25, and that's for ranged only. Their melee is just 1.0. Scrappers, likewise, are only 1.125 (melee only, but that doesn't matter since their ranged powers use the melee modifiers because they cheat). Dominators you have backwards: they are 1.05 for melee and 0.95 for ranged.
One of the things that this doesn't do is handle the difference between +Damage (Defiance, Fury) and base damage increases (Scourge, Crits) very well.
Finally, finally, the base damage modifiers are indicators, to an extent, but hardly the determiners for what ATs do what damage; the powers available are the big issue. For example, Dominators have higher melee modifiers than Blasters or Stalkers, but you'd be hard pressed to make any argument that they do more melee damage than either of those ATs (/Devices not withstanding), and this is simply because Stalkers have complete melee chains and AS, and Blasters have as many melee heavy hitters as Doms (sometimes more).
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Blasters. I'm wrong on base, max is still true.|
Originally Posted by Diellan_
Man, it would be nice if you atleast got the base damage values right.
Blasters are only 1.125, not 1.25, and that's for ranged only. Their melee is just 1.0. Scrappers, likewise, are only 1.125 (melee only, but that doesn't matter since their ranged powers use the melee modifiers because they cheat). Dominators you have backwards: they are 1.05 for melee and 0.95 for ranged. One of the things that this doesn't do is handle the difference between +Damage (Defiance, Fury) and base damage increases (Scourge, Crits) very well. Finally, finally, the base damage modifiers are indicators, to an extent, but hardly the determiners for what ATs do what damage; the powers available are the big issue. For example, Dominators have higher melee modifiers than Blasters or Stalkers, but you'd be hard pressed to make any argument that they do more melee damage than either of those ATs (/Devices not withstanding), and this is simply because Stalkers have complete melee chains and AS, and Blasters have as many melee heavy hitters as Doms (sometimes more). |
Melee/Range on Dom is reverse. btw Blasters doesnt have "better" melee attacks than Doms, higher hit doesnt matter, DPA does. Which doesnt mean Dom are higher dps.
My statement on Defiance is very wrong indeed.
As for the rest.
I take tanker res debuff on account because its AT related. Not power related, actually its not even a choice since you get T1 attack anyways.
Apart from tankers, and because its a core mecanism, I dont take in account res debuffs, damage buffs etc... or lets just state : Kin is the best damage dealer. Period.
ST damage isnt the only one that matters in the game. Its pretty much the only one that matters when damage matters and thats why its what I'm mostly talking about.
(I ignore the lolyourwrong and assimilated replies)
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
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You don't take into damage buffs, but half your numbers were exclusively about damage buffs (i.e. the +damage cap)?
Thing is, you can't really pick and choose what aspects you don't include when you're trying to make min/max'ing points, because people will always call you on leaving out aspects when you try to make absolute statements like you did (you can't factor in everything).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Dom's are actually more squishy than blasters if you look at max HP.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
They are the kings of melee damage according to the rating system being used in beta. Mind you, the same system says doms are more squishy then blasters, so YMMV.
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Well played; captured exactly how I felt while scrolling down the original post.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
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Not to mention Defenders have +30% Damage soloing (20% with one teammate, 10% with two).
Nor that Defenders get the best Damage buff from Assault and many have a -30% resistance buff giving effective +30% Damage to their whole team as well as themselves. And more AoEs. This means a team of Defenders will start to out damage a team of Scrappers from second number one with the right powers.
IOW... there are *a lot* more parameters to consider than base and max damage to determine who's going to do the most damage.
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So is there a change to the mechanics on the test server that will let stalkers take out pylons in less than a minute? Because I really would be surprised to see that. Pleased also, but surprised.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
They are the kings of melee damage according to the rating system being used in beta. Mind you, the same system says doms are more squishy then blasters, so YMMV.
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Last I saw, the top was a VEAT. With scrappers and brutes both way above stalkers, and Iggy's SS/FA brute at 300+ DPS without lore pets way above anyone else's brute. Need to go catch up on the pylon thread in more detail since I've only been back online for a bit.
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Just to enlight people asking about damage and to close some commun misconceptions:
Blaster:
Base 125 - Max 562,5 (Defiance is hard to quatifie but its somewhere close to 10%)
Scrapper:
Base 125 - Max 562,5 (Almost 10% more with criticals because minions doesnt matter)
Corruptor:
Base 75 - Max 375 (Close to 17% overall on big targets)
Controller:
Base 55 - Max 220 (Double if Containment)
Defender:
Base 65 - Max 260
Mastermind:
Base 55 - Max 220
(Melee Pet is 100 base to 400 Max but this only applies to tier 8 pet. Other pets gets very lower damage scale due to lower level)
Tanker:
Base 80 - Max 320
Brute:
Base 75 - Max 581,25
Dominator:
Base 105 - Max 420 (Melee attack is very slightly lower, Domination doesnt affect damage anymore)
Kheldian:
Human Base 85 - Max 340
Nova Base 120 - Max 480
Dwarf Base 100 - Max 400
VEAT:
Base 100 - Max 400
Stalker:
Base 100 - Max 500 (Roughly 10% more with critical, 30ish in a full team with noone ******* around. AS doesnt affect overall damage in any meaningfull way)
Misconceptions:
- VEATs are damage dealer. Tanks arent.
VEATs have some team utility but de res debuff on tank's T1 attack compensate widely the damage difference.
- Human-only speced Kheldians are good.
Nope.
- VEATs are better than Kheldians because they have team buffs can do as much damage.
They dont do as much damage.
- Scrappers and Blasters are damage dealers. Brutes arent.
Its pretty close actually. Without any kind of buff the Hero damage dealers will do more but with a good Kin all 3 are about the same DPS.
- Defenders can deal damage.
Not really. Secondary on defender should be oriented toward debuffing on a team build. Debuff effects on defender attacks is considerably higher than the Blasters or Corr vertions.
- Dom arent damage dealers but Corruptors are.
Actually Dom are above Corrs. But both should be considered as true damage dealers.
- MM just lag me and are useless.
Its pretty hard to quantifie MM damage. They are most definately a support AT. If pets never die and are pro-controlled the damage is somewhere close to Corrs but the fact IA uses stupid damage cycles and insert AoE/Cones when is not needed drops draticly pet's utility.
- Stalkers suck.
On an 8 man team Stalkers are the ultimate damage dealer, regardless of AS usage. The fact they get gimped vertion of Scrapper primary and secondary sets (BU vs Soul Drain, Hide vs Quick Recovery, and more...), the lack of team utility like threat auras or lower survivability give them generally a bad reputation but, still, they are the ultimate Damage AT.