Damage will fix it
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-08-23 06:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Base hp, not max. The "survivability" of 75% resistance and 1605.5 maxhp is shared across Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, Dominators, Masterminds, and Stalkers - defense softcap is far more relevant than hard cap, so I don't remember the defense hardcaps and the defense softcap is the same for all ATs because it's based on the mobs you're fighting. Out of those ATs, the most survivable at those caps would be the MM due to bodyguard mode.
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Originally Posted by Syndace
Dom's are actually more squishy than blasters if you look at max HP.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Really? |
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
- Defenders can deal damage.
Not really. Secondary on defender should be oriented toward debuffing on a team build. Debuff effects on defender attacks is considerably higher than the Blasters or Corr vertions. |
My Rad/Sonic GM soloing damage machine LAUGHS at your assertion.
Giant Monsters. Defeated. While SOLO. No temps. No inspirations.
Can't do damage indeed. HA!
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Just think if you slotted for the secondary effect instead. Man, I bet teams would love a /en def if they slotted for KB instead of damage.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Really?
My Rad/Sonic GM soloing damage machine LAUGHS at your assertion. Giant Monsters. Defeated. While SOLO. No temps. No inspirations. Can't do damage indeed. HA! |
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VEATs, taking a typical build and not cherry-picking a good Tanker and a gimped VEAT, do more damage than Tankers. Even when Bruising is accounted for. They also are typically going to do more damage than a Kheld at high level, although order of powers gives the Kheld an early advantage.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Just to enlight people asking about damage and to close some commun misconceptions:
<incorrect and/or utterly useless damage numbers> Misconceptions: - VEATs have some team utility but de res debuff on tank's T1 attack compensate widely the damage difference. - VEATs dont do as much damage [as Khelds]. - Scrappers and Blasters are damage dealers. Brutes arent. Its pretty close actually. Without any kind of buff the Hero damage dealers will do more but with a good Kin all 3 are about the same DPS. - Secondary on defender should be oriented toward debuffing on a team build. - Stalkers are the ultimate Damage AT. |
A Kinetic causes a Scrapper or Blaster to pull far away from a Brute and never look back. It's only close when solo for Scrappers without persistent damage buffs because Fury is fairly easy to maintain, and damage buffs favor the other ATs far more than they do Brutes.
The secondary on a Defender should be oriented towards blasting the [censored] out of the mobs rather than acting like a [censored]. You have a blast set, use it.
Stalkers aren't even the ultimate melee damage AT, and are generally far too single-target focused for the AoE damage nature of much of the game's content. Even against hard targets, other ATs outshine them and their ability to one-shot minions and non-resistant lieutenants is completely wasted because the control ATs can just as easily remove them from the fight while AoE damage drops them.
One misconception is that Corruptors do significantly more damage than Defenders, though. Assume 95% damage slotting and firing an identical attack chain, the numbers work out like so:
Defender: 0.65 * (1.0 base damage + 0.95 slotting + 0.30 solo vigilance buff) = 1.4625
Corruptor: 0.75 * (1.0 base damage + 0.95 slotting) = 1.4625
Scourge adds some damage as well, but the amount is less than the 17% you're giving it credit for - there was a thread about quantifying it, and based on what you're facing it was usually between 5-11% extra with extra benefit against AVs and the like due to the huge hp pool. In any case, you have to reduce the mob below 50% of their hit points before Scourge does anything, so if a Defender wouldn't be able to kill it eventually, neither would a Corruptor - the Corruptor would just get to the finish line first.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Either you find your joke wasnt funny enough the first time, either you actually did not understand.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Just think if you slotted for the secondary effect instead. Man, I bet teams would love a /en def if they slotted for KB instead of damage.
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There are three ways to play Defender. /Sonic, /Dark and "concept".
Sonic is offensive support, cant of course slot for -res (not sure how much I'm suppose to explain that part but some post here are quite pathetic) but will aim for maximal debuff attack sting regardless of the damage because the indirect damage is so high that is worth sacrifying your seft (poor) dps.
You can slot for debuff on Dark (accurate hit debuff sets are almost a good reason). Numbers however are pretty low and it may not make a huge diference on the damage income.
Both sets are yet usefull for debuff reasons and not sheer damage reasons (see I formerly said "oriented" as for power choice and not "sloted", maybe I should have said "built").
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| Man, I bet teams would love a /en def if they slotted for KB instead of damage. |
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| ...solo blahblah, AoE blahblah... |
1- AoE hardly matters when it comes to damage discutions. Minions and most Leuts are wiped away in 2 powers of pretty much any AT.
2- You can discuss minmaxing on solo or optimised teamplay. I chose the later.
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| A Kinetic causes a Scrapper or Blaster to pull far away from a Brute and never look back |
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This is all the proof anyone needs that you've never played City of Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
There are three ways to play Defender. /Sonic, /Dark and "concept".
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I ignore solo and AoE because: 1- AoE hardly matters when it comes to damage discutions. Minions and most Leuts are wiped away in 2 powers of pretty much any AT. 2- You can discuss minmaxing on solo or optimised teamplay. I chose the later. |
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Min/max for teams and ignoring AoE are incompatible. AoEs are how teams wipe out large numbers of foes, and large teams face large numbers of foes. Even if each player on a team can wipe out a whole spawn with a single AoE, min/max team play is going to call for rolling from spawn to spawn (or pulling lots of spawns together) and repeat the destruction every time. There aren't many teams that are going to be able to repeat such AoE destruction from spawn to spawn unless they have lots of AoE attacks available to significant numbers of their members. Once you're into team composition realms where that holds true, the AoE potential of the individual characters that make up the team starts to matter a lot. Ignoring it is going to create false skew in the results of any analysis of such play.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
1- AoE hardly matters when it comes to damage discutions. Minions and most Leuts are wiped away in 2 powers of pretty much any AT.
2- You can discuss minmaxing on solo or optimised teamplay. I chose the later. |
Edit: You're probably going to take this poorly, but it seriously doesn't sound like you have that much practical experience backing the things you're saying. If you actually do have a reasonable amount of experience, then it sounds like you have really misinterpreted things you've seen. Either way, I think you're going to continue to get a lot of flack from other number crunching, experienced forum folk, because you're saying things that don't line up with their (shared) experiences, and you're kind of mangling some otherwise pretty well agreed upon analysis methods. The only way you're going to convince folks that your position has merit is to show how those experiences - and the existing analysis that is known to somewhat fairly model it - are flawed. So far, I'm not seeing that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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<edit to remove what I really think>|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Any descent SS brute runs steady +350% (or 450% if you rather count that way) with 2 rage and fury. When Fulcrum Shift hit she jumps way beyond Scrapper's damage cap.
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It's really, really basic math. For the same attack:
1.125 * 5 (damage cap for Blaster/Scrapper) = 5.625
0.75 * 6.75 (damage cap for Brute) = 5.0625
5.625 > 5.0625
Note that even when ignoring criticals, a damage capped Brute does less damage than a damage capped Scrapper or Blaster.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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No, you are the one to actually not understand. Like /ice having AoEs with blaster damage. The only way I slot any secondary effect stuff in /dark is for the damage procs. Night Fall takes 2. T.T. takes three.
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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Either you find your joke wasnt funny enough the first time, either you actually did not understand.
There are three ways to play Defender. /Sonic, /Dark and "concept". |
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I didn't even notice you said this, except that Siolfir quoted it. As Siolfir said, this is simply factually incorrect. The Scrapper base * (1+the Scrapper damage buff cap) is larger than the Brute base * (1+the Brute damage buff cap). If you had a Scrapper and a Brute using the exact same attacks while both at their respective damage caps, the Scrapper would deal more damage every time, and that's assuming the Scrapper doesn't critical.
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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Any descent SS brute runs steady +350% (or 450% if you rather count that way) with 2 rage and fury. When Fulcrum Shift hit she jumps way beyond Scrapper's damage cap.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Pardon my being dense, but I actually don't get the point of the thread. Is it that "Stalkers rool", maybe "Defebcers r teh suxxor"?
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Besides its +675% for brute and +400% for scrappers that means|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
<edit to remove what I really think>
It's really, really basic math. For the same attack: 1.125 * 5 (damage cap for Blaster/Scrapper) = 5.625 0.75 * 6.75 (damage cap for Brute) = 5.0625 5.625 > 5.0625 Note that even when ignoring criticals, a damage capped Brute does less damage than a damage capped Scrapper or Blaster. |
1.125*5 = 5.625 for Scrapper
0.75*7.75 = 5.8125 for Brute
Its just freaking unbelievable I'm the first one to notice this.
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| This is all the proof anyone needs that you've never played City of Heroes. |
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The numbers are meaningless unless given context. Those values are just multipliers, but have you looked at the actual comparison? Scrappers at 5.625 will do more damage over time thanks to criticals than a full-fury Brute. You're only the first to notice it because you're wrong!
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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Besides its +675% for brute and +400% for scrappers that means
1.125*5 = 5.625 for Scrapper 0.75*7.75 = 5.8125 for Brute Its just freaking unbelievable I'm the first one to notice this. I play the game since day one thank you very much. Only 2 or 3 month a year tho. I have more than 10 50ies, list doesnt matters to you I think. Most of them are defenders by the way. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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More than 10 you say? Never mind then, your math must be good.
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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
I have more than 10 50ies, list doesnt matters to you I think. Most of them are defenders by the way.
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A totally fair correction. Unfortunately, all it does is lop off the qualifier about critical hits. Criticals are somewhat challenging to quantify, because their probability is usually a function of the rank of the target, and sometimes a function of the power used. It's 5% for minions (and underlings I believe) and 10% for everything else. Because critical hits yield double damage, their average contribution to DPS for an attack is equal to their odds of happening. Even just the 5% average increase in damage for minions pushes the Scrapper ahead.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Besides its +675% for brute and +400% for scrappers that means
1.125*5 = 5.625 for Scrapper 0.75*7.75 = 5.8125 for Brute |
1.125*5*1.05 = 5.90625
0.75*7.75 = 5.8125
In practice, it's probably more like 6-7% averaged across all entities one meets in missions. Against hard targets like AVs, the Scrapper will rail at the 10% hit rate. All the numbers increase a little bit if the Scrapper has a powerset with a a power that has a hard-coded 15% critical rate, like Headsplitter or Eagle's Claw.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Why do Masterminds get credit for the pets and Tanks get credit for their Res debuff but my Crab gets credit for neither?
If I see a Tank managing to do more dps than my Crab, I am going to report him because he is obviously hacking the server.
Because you get to pick and choose what facts you want to acknolwedge!
This is basically the same effect going on:
When you start picking and choosing what facts you want to accept, then you start constructing a false picture (I'd say ignoring AoE is the most egregious!). Actually, I'm curious what the OP's point actually is with this thread, because it either seems to be trolling or he has the WoW (/other generic fantasy MMO) mindset and doesn't quite grasp that CoH operates under entirely different concepts & paradigms.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I like having people explain to me how an engine works too. Especially when they've never opened the hood of a car. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
When you start picking and choosing what facts you want to accept, then you start constructing a false picture (I'd say ignoring AoE is the most egregious!). Actually, I'm curious what the OP's point actually is with this thread, because it either seems to be trolling or he has the WoW (/other generic fantasy MMO) mindset and doesn't quite grasp that CoH operates under entirely different concepts & paradigms.
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Because that's what's going on here. Someone with no real idea how teh game actually works is attempting to beat us over the head wit the fact that HE IS RIGHT.
And it's made so much better by the fact that he's already outright said he is purposefully ignoring anything that disagrees with his calculations.
"Clearing up misconceptions" is a fancy way of saying "Just shut up and admit I'm right" And he got bent out of shape when people refused to do so.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I was always under the impression that buffs/de-buffs were King in this realm.
Hmm.
My bad. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I've deleted more than 10 50s. That doesn't mean I believe the tripe in the OP.
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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
I have more than 10 50ies, list doesnt matters to you I think.
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@Roderick
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Which means in a fraction of the time I have played you have more 50s than I have. This could mean I have more alts, or you got PLed. In other words, how many 50s you have is downright meaningless.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
I play the game since day one thank you very much. Only 2 or 3 month a year tho. I have more than 10 50ies, list doesnt matters to you I think. Most of them are defenders by the way.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
The numbers are meaningless unless given context. Those values are just multipliers, but have you looked at the actual comparison? Scrappers at 5.625 will do more damage over time thanks to criticals than a full-fury Brute. You're only the first to notice it because you're wrong!
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Fair enough.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Besides its +675% for brute and +400% for scrappers that means
1.125*5 = 5.625 for Scrapper 0.75*7.75 = 5.8125 for Brute Its just freaking unbelievable I'm the first one to notice this. I play the game since day one thank you very much. Only 2 or 3 month a year tho. I have more than 10 50ies, list doesnt matters to you I think. Most of them are defenders by the way. |
So a Brute at the damage cap can outdamage a Blaster at the damage cap when using the same attack. They still do less damage than Scrappers at the damage cap, and there is far more that is incorrect in your original post than comparing completely capped performance across all ATs.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I rarely post on the Forums, since it is a completely different game than CoH. I usually just come and laugh at how people like you and move on. I don't care about your number section because Its so poorly written.
1.)A blasters defience doesn't add to there dmg cap. If a blaster is at cap defience will have no effect.
2.)You cant add the -res into a tanks overall dmg output without including every other AT's Primary Secondary that does a -res effect. So in a generalization of all powers you shouldn't include secondary effects or chances to do additional dmg.
3.)A Dom is a damage dealer, its a Primary of Control with a Secondary of Damage. So you mez your mob then dmg it to death. You must not know about farming doms.
4.)Tanks can be damage dealers, my hero farmer is a tank. Fire/SS when you solo farm a tanks higher base dmg +rage will do more DPS than a Brute with rage and fury without a kin or outside buffs.
-Misconception-
Commas can be used as decimal points... although this little dot with a line on it looks ok to some people for a decimal but its not. A comma is used for sepperatting numbers into thousands, millions, etc.
-Example
I have seventy-five hundreths of a fully functioning brain = I have .75 of a fully functioning brain
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There's actually quite a number of countries that use commas instead of periods to separate off the decimal value. Wikipedia has a good examples section.|
Originally Posted by MrEian
-Misconception-
Commas can be used as decimal points... although this little dot with a line on it looks ok to some people for a decimal but its not. A comma is used for sepperatting numbers into thousands, millions, etc. -Example I have seventy-five hundreths of a fully functioning brain = I have .75 of a fully functioning brain |
Considering the OP was originally on the EU servers (hence the '_EU' appended to his name), it's quite likely that he's in one of the many countries that use that style.
ps. pancakes
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Last I saw, the top was a VEAT. With scrappers and brutes both way above stalkers, and Iggy's SS/FA brute at 300+ DPS without lore pets way above anyone else's brute. Need to go catch up on the pylon thread in more detail since I've only been back online for a bit.