Best high-end pve controller for teams?

Hello fellow control freaks!

Recently I have been having a renewed interest in CoH because I hear that CoH:Freedom is coming out soon. I have been reading a lot on these forums lately because like the rest of you, I love controllers. There are a lot of interesting possibilities out there.

A long time ago, I used to play a plant/kin controller. I really like him except for one fact: speed boost buffing made me feel like a buff bot and not a player (by the time you have buffed the whole team, you have to start rebuffing). I have decided that for this reason I do not like to buff and heal as much. I prefer to be aware of the battlefield and actively mitigate damage trough debuffing and control.

I read about earth/rad, and excellent control and debuff set. The fact that */rad has toggled debuffs means they can be used on higher level mobs without missing. This in addition to earths -def seems as if this could be a very strong powerset for teams fighting purples. I also see the possibility of earth/cold or earth/TA and even earth/storm. I also looked at plant/storm because I hear it is a great combo with good damage. I really learned to love seeds of confusion and I might go plant again (plant/rad or plant/cold seems possible to but not nearly as exciting as plant/storm). I just know and feel that plant/storm is going to be a blast.

Now the question (finally!):
What would be the best team-oriented high-end pve controller?

In other words, in an optimal team setup, what would be the most desirable controller? For PUG's, what controllers are most looked for (high end pve)? If you could make the best team setup of powersets and AT then what would it look like? I have no idea since I haven't played this game for a long time. Do brutes tank now? If so, what are the best and what kind of controller compliments their powersets the best?

What controller has the best debuff potential?

Some time ago I think Earth/rad was deemed the best team based controller. I have a level 50 Earth/storm that was fun as hell to level up. All of the Earth controllers you listed will more than work. I do have a Plant/storm that I enjoyed as well and the ride to 50 was very similar to my Earth/storm in terms of fun.

For brutes, /kin is the default answer. Whole VGs were made when CoV hit based around the idea of brutes with /kins. Any other option depends on what kind of brute. A /sr and /shield brute will have different needs than a /elec one.

There isn't a best. There are a lot of good ones but the game is too varied and each Controller too different from each other for a real "best" to exist.

For example, IMO, Thermal, Empathy, and Mind Control are the "best" for the Keyes Island trial. A Mind Controller with a reliable and non-aggro self heal is even better. This is mostly due to the non-aggro powers allowing the Mind Controller to confuse and sleep enemies before the rest of the team gets to them, so they can't pop-shot anyone low on HP. IMO Fire Control is among the worst for this particular trial, because pets and PBAoE damage are generally less useful or even directly counterproductive.

The BAF is pretty much an AV farm with a 5 minute intermission. IMO, Controllers in general are not that great at this trial. Dominators, Corruptors, or a /Sonic Defender are much much more useful here. Controllers contribute via their buffs but provide 3rd rate damage next to Corruptors and much less utility for dealing with the escapee phase than a Dominator, who can both control minions and do high damage to the un-Containment-able lieutenants. The enemy waves during AVs fights are all bosses, making perma-Doms much more effective at dealing with them in general. Mind and Illusion Control probably fare worst here, and /Storm performs well.

Lambda is hard to pin point. Mass Confusion is extremely effective if too many enemies build up around Marauder. Mass Hypnosis can split groups of ambushers invisibly--usually bad but good here. An alpha breaker is useful on the groups surrounding the boxes, but expect an ambush and a need to respond to it with another power. PBAoEs are a hassle during the sabotage phase IMO because they draw unwanted aggro.

For soloing, Fire and Plant are probably best. As long as it isn't soloing Nemesis, because Nemesis are effectively immune to Plant's best control power. And as long as the developers never give a level 50 enemy Dispersion Bubble, which cancels all of Fire Control's powers.

In any case, in my experience at high levels the importance of "alpha breaker" powers for team characters drops significantly. They are still helpful but teams simply do not stand around waiting for Controllers (or Dominators) to mezz the opposition. My Ice/Rad runs slightly ahead of the team, setting up the debuffs and letting enemies take a pot shot at me so the -Recharge means more when the rest of the team arrives.

Earth/Rad is an effective character with its ups and downs. Earth Control itself has very powerful mitigation and an effective pet. The -defense sometimes actually means something in trials due to the nature of the enemies. How much Radiation's toggles realistically contribute is a matter for debate. On paper they are amazing but in practice I'm less sure, due to their short-ish range (15 feet) and the constant detoggling when something dies. You won't go wrong with Earth/Rad, but it won't be uncontroversially the "best."

Firstly, you might be interested to know that recent changes to buffs mean that speed boost is much easier to apply. Buffs with short recharge and relatively long duration such as speed boost, thermal shields, sonic shields and bubbles now affect an area around the target, making it far less demanding to keep them on a full team.

On the question of the "best" team controller, as others have said it's really dependent upon opinion and situation. Often, only a modest amount of pure control is needed and a solid contribution of damage (either direct or through buff/debuff) is desireable. Many factors influence what will benefit a team most, and there are diverse methods of achieving success.

For mass crowd control, earth is regarded as a very strong set, almost universally. Mind also has many proponents. Plant is very effective but can struggle against enemies resistant to confuse.

Illusion is an interesting mix and is one of strongest sets for dealing with tough single targets.

Fire and plant have solid damage options, which is often desireable.

As for secondaries, there are many strong options. Honestly, if you pick a secondary you like the look of, you probably won't be disappointed. They can influence your playstyle a lot. /Storm for example adds a solid amount of control and damage but has a bit of a learning curve.

One thing you should be aware of in regards to buff powers like SB: a LOT of them were recently made AoE so you don't have to buff every individual character now. As long as they're within 30 or 60 feet of your target (I forget which), they all get the buff. You, the caster, however, still don't benefit.

Anyway, a controller's ability to buff and debuff is somewhat... depreciated now that incarnate abilities let you debuff your foes and buff everyone around you. These buffs/debuffs don't make buff/debuff classes meaningless, however at this point the best way to contribute in end-game content is to stay alive and deal damage or complete other objectives. Heck, with the +levels and everyone else's ability to self-buff, debuff, summon pets, etc, most normal groups of foes will be dead before you can hit an AoE hold.

So my advice? Don't try be be king of the hill when it comes to team-play. Find something you wanna play solo or on small teams. When it comes time to do an 8-man TF or 18 person raid, check your ego at the door and just kill stuff.

EDIT: Ahh, ninja'd by like, everyone else in the thread =(

kin

I have no qualms giving an unequivocal answer for "the best" team pve troller - Earth/Cold. At least based on my own inventory of trollers, which include fire/kin, ill/rad, mind/therm, blah blah, all primaries and secondaries represented at 50. With this toon, I have never ever thought, "Here's a scenario I'm not making a substantial contribution to". At the end of the day, /Cold has Benumb, a very special power indeed, unique among the buff/debuff sets.

I would have to go with Earth and then Thermal.

Earth gives you amazing amounts of control.

Thermal provides shields, heals, buffs as well as really decent debuffs. Its a good all around mixed set.

I'd have to go against Kin... not because its not a good set but because Kins are freaking everywhere. It is very easy to end up on trials and general content with multiple kins, and kins don't play that well together in my opinion. 1, Kin is great. 2 Kins are nice as they can SB each other. 3 or more and its pretty much not adding anything more in terms of +dam/-dam end recovery, and especially recharge as people are either hitting the caps or are so close to the caps the additional buffage is meaningless.

Plant/kin. Lol you have one already! With the changes to sb, you buff once and start laying the damage as a good plant/kin should. Even id is a team buff (at least the dam Res part).

As others have pointed out, there are a lot of kins out there so ymmv.

Anything with /rad can be a god in teams, they have possibly the best buff in the game, and their debuffing is also some of the best in the game.

I personally like Illusion control, but like every set, it has weaknesses. PA is some of the best soft control in the game, but sometimes you just need more hard control.

If you are talking about a pure team build, just looking for the most hard aoe control and buffs/debuffs as possible, I'd have to agree you can't get much better than earth/rad. Earth provides some incredible control thats good for a team, and well rad pairs well with everything.

I would like to thank everyone for replying to my post. I did learn a lot of things.

@Local_Man: I did in fact already read your guides. There are very insightful and educated me on earth/rad (that is the reason it was in my list in the first place)

I looked at illusion, but to get perma PA you need to do special enhancements. For this reason alone I would not make this my first character to 50, since I do not have the money to buy all these sets. My plant/kin used to be level ~36 or something.

Because of the fact that plant/* and fire/* are the highest damage primary controllers, and the fact that everyone used to have fire/kin controllers (and they probably still all do), I will go with plant/storm. Plant/cold is looking promising too, but sleet and heat loss are only gained at level 35/38 while I get freezing rain at level 16 (*/storm).

I think it will be a good road to 50 while still be viable in the end game. I really wish the paragon wiki would have real values (like recharge, debuff value and so on). It would make all this much easier .
Again thank you all.

My plant storm is 50+3 and is the most fun of any character I have ever played. However good, plant/storm has major endurance problems, but with your alpha slot and inspirations you should be fine.

I've always had a hard time defining a "best controller" (or any other AT, actually).

From what I've experience, all these factors affect my performance (in no particular order):

1. Build - My power picks, my set bonuses, my accolades, etc. A soft capped for defense toon plays nothing like a toon built for recharge/end recovery.
2. Team - This one is quite obvious.
3. Playstyle - This depends a bit on my mood. I can play aggressively or not. Some days I prefer chilled, slow paced teams who actually like to enjoy a TF and chat a bit. Others, I just prefer a fast paced team, rushing through things and I find myself acting more like a Scraptroller than a controller.

Now I'll stop nitpicking and just name my preferences for end game:

Earth/Rad - Beast. Lots of tools to play with. Excellent control and debuffing. Damage is not so great.
Earth/Storm - I prefer this to my /Rad just because it's more aggressive and challenging. And I love Stormies.
Fire/Rad - A tad too easy for my taste. Beasty damage and ace control.
Fire/Storm - I'm still leveling it, but I know it will be a beast once the build is finished. Both control and damage wise.

I have a Plant/Storm and a Fire/Storm and they are both a blast to play, but they also play quite differently (you need to be smart about interactions between plant powers and ice powers, such as negating knockdown).

Alright, here's how I went about approaching the answer to this question: By asking myself MOAR questions and then deciding my opinion.

-What do you want to BRING to the team? What do you like in a controller?
A: AREA Control, Buffs, Debuffs, Healing, and Damage (last place, but I'd still like it to be there). In other words, a character who can speed things along, keep people standing (within reason, because you can't play their characters for them), and contribute greatly to defeating tough enemies which would otherwise stall the team out.

-What primaries have solid AoE control and damage, along with potential debuffs?
A:
*Earth - a wide variety of AoE control options, lovely defense debuffs, and a tanky pet. Subpar damage. Can't use powers when flying.
*Mind - extremely solid AoE control and decent damage, but it doesn't "lock down" as well as other sets. Some people have stupid crazy hate for confuse, though.
*Fire - Very good damage, solid control, and lots of space to let one focus on their secondary. Pets benefit greatly from secondary buffs.
*Ice - Decent AoE control, low damage, and meh debuffs, along with a decent-ish pet. Can't use some powers on flying enemies.
*Plant - Good damage, excellent AoE control, and can focus on secondary without harming primary. Pet is disappointing. Can't lock down flying enemies as easily.
*Illusion - full lockdown isn't going to happen, slower moving pets mean teams unwilling to wait for you will leave you behind. Perma PA means never having to team again. Arguably best damage short of a Fire/Kin. Awesome stealth.
*Elec - Good lock down powers, awesome secondary effect when slotted for endmod, solid pets that benefit from buffs. Great with recharge IO bonuses and the Musculature alpha for added damage and endmod. Damage isn't the best, but it's there. Knockback will make you furious.
*Gravity - lolololololololololololol But seriously. The lockdown can be decent, and it has high damage for a controller. AWESOME pet, so awesome, in fact, that you don't feel complete until you get it and can let it stack holds all over mobs. Great solo troller, but only a good team choice.

So that cuts out Gravity and Illusion, followed by Earth, Mind, and Ice simply because it's my opinion and they aren't primaries that I love playing all the time. This leaves us with Fire, Plant, and Elec to choose from, with Illusion are a very distinct MAYBE, no matter how much I love my Ill/Rad. We'll come back to that.

-What kind of Secondaries supply buffs, debuffs, healing in some form, and/or additional damage/control? Bonus points for a rez, which people love.
A:
*Cold Domination - Zero heals, but great defense buffs, loads of debuffs, and Sleet for additional damage/control.
*Empathy - Zero debuffs/control/damage, but amazing healing and buffing. Great for a team of competent players, but I always find myself just trying to keep the one idiot on the team from faceplanting constantly. Plus one for rez.
*Force Field - Awesome buffs and great KB control make for a tremendous secondary, but no heals/debuffs. Love this set, and I'm sad not to include it.
*Kinetics - Amazing buffs, some debuffing, a little sapping, built-in travel powers, and a heal with limited use but solid numbers. I love kinetics. The buffs are so wonderful that the limited debuffs aren't a concern, especially for large groups of enemies. Not as amazing on single enemies, but still worth using.
*Radiation - Fills every requirement aside from additional damage, because fallout is hard to use properly. Excellent teaming secondary.
*Sonic - Lacks heals and additional damage, but a team with two /sonic trollers might as well be invincible for all the beautiful resistance buffs/debuffs. One is "merely" good enough to greatly contribute to team survival and kill speed. Unfortunately, no heal.
*Storm Summoning - Great debuffs, a teensy heal with a buff, piles of additional control/damage, and a gigantic difficulty rating. /Storm is a set for people who think outside the box, and in their hands it can be used to wreck just about anything. Linear thinkers will need practic using it. Not for point/clickers. Pair with a primary that locks down KB for additional tactics. Works great with Earth, Plant, and Fire.
*Thermal - Solid heals, buffs, and slightly anemic debuffs along with a rez. This definitely goes on the list as a jack-of-all-trades secondary, but it's so close to a "healer" set that I find myself frustrated with it at times. I prefer it with Masterminds.
*Trick Arrow - Great controller secondary for those who want more control/damage. I love this one, also, but it doesn't go on the list because it doesn't mean the full criteria.

With this, we've knocked out Cold Domination, Empathy, Force Field, Sonic, and Trick Arrow. We have Kinetics, Radiation, Storm Summoning, and Thermal left. This was a brutal culling, and I bet I'll get lots of people disagreeing, especially once I wipe out /Therm on count of me not liking to play it.

So now we've got the following to choose from:
Primaries - Fire, Elec, Plant
Secondaries - Radiation, Storm Summoning, Kinetics
Bonus Primary: Illusion
Bonus Secondary: Cold Domination

Take any of the primaries and mix it with one of the secondaries, with the single exception of Elec/Storm (erroneous KB will destroy your nicely ordered lockdown). After you've made the match and looked at the powers, see if it's something that looks fun. If not, choose again. If so, then roll 'er up! You'll have a team troller that people will love having around.

...And I just realized that this is also mostly the list of the most popular Primaries/secondaries for controllers, minus the power sets that I don't play. >.>

The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin. The close runners-up are */Rad and */Storm. Other sets are out of the picture.

Secondary matters more than primary here, but the strongest primary is definitely Plant/*. Which primary is next-best really does depend on whether you have offense or defense in mind. For offense, Fire/* is second. For defense, Earth/*, closely followed by Ice/*. Mind/* and Gravity/* are out of the picture.

Note also that I did not place Illusion/* or Electric/*. Illusion might belong in the primary list with Fire/* or as its close runner up, but my experience with and study of it are not 100%. I'm even less sure of Electric/*. I don't play or study either much, but as you're not talking about soloing bosses, etc, I'm fairly sure Illusion's not at the top of the list, and I don't think Electric has anything game-changing.

The best high-end PvE controllers are plant/kin, followed by plant/rad, plant/storm, fire/kin, earth/kin*. I'm pretty confident that my logic holds true for third tier bests: Ice/Kin, Earth/Storm, Earth/Rad, Fire/Rad.

The rhetoric about all builds being equal or nearly so is miles off the mark, and can be attributed to the way people naturally tend to identify with their own builds, etc. I grant that some of my views on what's best may even be misinformed. But there're huge differences in performance and fun that are quite independent of "how you play," etc.

* But didn't something with Earth/Kin get un-loved a year or so ago? I can't remember.

BTW Marvalis, having a Plant/kin and a Plant/Storm, I really, really like the /Storm a lot more. But this is sentimentality and a tendency to solo, on my part.

As much fun as Storm is, I doubt if many teams are particularly excited to see one. To some extent on teams /Storm is like a weaker */*/Ice Dominator. Lots of fun but the damage and best power are replaceable. Play whatever you want though.

Some have already answered with probably the best answer: any controller can be good for teaming at the high-end. It really is up to what you want to play.

However, I might add something that is good to think about...

In the high-end game, strong buffs and debuffs are very important to have since a lot of the high-end content involves a lot of Arch-villains and other strong enemies. Combined with your primary, your buffs/debuffs will provide your team with a powerful ally (you).

For instance, I run an Electric Control - Kinetics controller. Thanks to all of the new incarnate abilities and some great slotting, I could argue that character is pretty amazing. His primary allows for a lot of hard and soft control as well as depriving foes of their endurance. Via the Interface slot, I allow all of my attacks (as well as my team's) to debuff To Hit and Regeneration. Thanks to Barrier, everyone around me (when I cast it) gets a significant boost to their defenses (as well as myself). And, from the Kinetics, my team is kept happy by having more endurance, damage, and can be healed when necessary.

All that said, controllers are capable of a lot. It is up to you to figure out what you want to do with it.