Best high-end pve controller for teams?


Amy_Amp

 

Posted

My vote goes to Earth/Thermal.


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@Starflier

 

Posted

Quote:
The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin. The close runners-up are */Rad and */Storm. Other sets are out of the picture.
This is such a high degree of wrong that I can't complete this sentence without fear of mod-smacking.

In this era of builds creating massive amounts of +recharge of +recovery for themselves, in addition to the proponderance of kins out there, and the fact that kins don't stack well (once you're at damage cap, you're capped), a kin ends up adding a nice heal and an underrated -dmg debuff to "high end large teams".

I'm saying this as a guy that loves his kins, I've got a handful at 50, across the ATs, two of them being top-10 toons for me.

I can't even address /Storm as being something in an upper tier such that "other sets are out of the picture". To dismiss Cold and Thermal as sub-par to Storm... well again, I can't finish this statement for fear of mod-smacking.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasiphae View Post
I'm gonna assume you've never played a /Cold.
Well, fun to have injected more vitality into this debate. Yes, I don't have a L38+ */Cold. The way I read Cold Dom (it's been a while) vs Storm Summon, for big team play: Trade Hurricane and Dmg pseudopets for bubbles and heat loss. Disagree? Considering the roles I see hurricane and -Res playing, I have to admit Cold has a lot going for it. I may revise.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
This is such a high degree of wrong that I can't complete this sentence without fear of mod-smacking.

In this era of builds creating massive amounts of +recharge of +recovery for themselves, in addition to the proponderance of kins out there, and the fact that kins don't stack well (once you're at damage cap, you're capped), a kin ends up adding a nice heal and an underrated -dmg debuff to "high end large teams".

I'm saying this as a guy that loves his kins, I've got a handful at 50, across the ATs, two of them being top-10 toons for me.


Let me get this straight:

1. Because there are so many Kineticists, the set's not that great.
2. Because kins don't stack well, the set's not that great.
3. Because in this era, everybody has tons of +rec and +rchg, the set's not that great.

1. argues against itself. The correlation between performance an popularity is certainly not 1, but it's also certainly not negative in something as widely played as kin. If it's ubiquitous it's probably effective.

2. is irrelevant, as we're not talking about /Kin superteams, we're talking about individual builds. Incidentally it's also inaccurate, as they do stack well, particularly on controllers, who tend to be replete with long-ish and very long recharge times on powers. Which controller secondary stacks vastly much better than Kin BTW?

3. is inaccurate. Incarnates and people with billions to spend on LotGambler, Performance shifter, and whatever the latest set bonuses are in +rec and +rchg, are a tiny subset of "high end pve." That conversation is "tricked out L50s."

Quote:
I can't even address /Storm as being something in an upper tier such that "other sets are out of the picture". To dismiss Cold and Thermal as sub-par to Storm... well again, I can't finish this statement for fear of mod-smacking.
Yes, Thermal I dismiss. Re: Cold, you may have a point. Point of difference may be: in my experience killing as mitigation works; bubbles have never really impressed me.

BTW, the squeaking about mod-smack is silly.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
As much fun as Storm is, I doubt if many teams are particularly excited to see one. To some extent on teams /Storm is like a weaker */*/Ice Dominator. Lots of fun but the damage and best power are replaceable. Play whatever you want though.
"Excited to see" isn't as much a criticism of the build, as it is of strategy, where Storm's concerned. (I take conversations about a controller to be abouta build, not a person.) I grant Storm can be played as you would solo, and annoy a team.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enantiodromos View Post
Let me get this straight:

1. Because there are so many Kineticists, the set's not that great.
2. Because kins don't stack well, the set's not that great.
3. Because in this era, everybody has tons of +rec and +rchg, the set's not that great.

1. argues against itself. The correlation between performance an popularity is certainly not 1, but it's also certainly not negative in something as widely played as kin. If it's ubiquitous it's probably effective.

2. is irrelevant, as we're not talking about /Kin superteams, we're talking about individual builds. Incidentally it's also inaccurate, as they do stack well, particularly on controllers, who tend to be replete with long-ish and very long recharge times on powers. Which controller secondary stacks vastly much better than Kin BTW?

3. is inaccurate. Incarnates and people with billions to spend on LotGambler, Performance shifter, and whatever the latest set bonuses are in +rec and +rchg, are a tiny subset of "high end pve." That conversation is "tricked out L50s."



Yes, Thermal I dismiss. Re: Cold, you may have a point. Point of difference may be: in my experience killing as mitigation works; bubbles have never really impressed me.

BTW, the squeaking about mod-smack is silly.
Please show me where I either imply indirectly or state directly about kin that "the set's not that great".

Waiting....

If you think of Cold as just "bubbles" well I'm going to go ahead and finish those statements I was hesitant to make earlier and go ahead and say it's time to put you on the list of folks where I see their name and think "read with extreme skepticism".


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

To me /Storm is infinitely more fun to play that /Cold. Heck, than anything really.
That's sufficient to make /Storm my choice (I think I have 4 /storm controllers alone), they also provide a lot of diversity on how you play them depending on your style, build, size of team and primary.

The fun factor is a big part of what is "best" for me. My high level Earth/Rad is very powerful, but I often get bored playing him.

For the same reason I like Fire/ because it's different from other primaries, since you really have to be in melee a lot.

I've yet to play a combo where I don't think I make a significant contribution to the team.

my 2 cents.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvalis View Post
Hello fellow control freaks!

Now the question (finally!):
What would be the best team-oriented high-end pve controller?

In other words, in an optimal team setup, what would be the most desirable controller? For PUG's, what controllers are most looked for (high end pve)? If you could make the best team setup of powersets and AT then what would it look like? I have no idea since I haven't played this game for a long time. Do brutes tank now? If so, what are the best and what kind of controller compliments their powersets the best?

What controller has the best debuff potential?
Since you don't define 'optimal team setup' (and I doubt that it can be defined, since the game has such varied content), you are never going to get a definitive answer for 'clearly the best'. For what its worth, though, I'll offer you my opinion.

My best controller, and by far my favorite, is Earth/Rad. As a controller, my job is not to bring DPS to the team (even though some say thats all you really want in the end game, post-incarnate abilities age). My job is to neutralize the enemy so they can't hurt my team. That means locking them down with holds, stunning them into inactivity, and debuffing their accuracy/damage/rate of fire. Earth/rad does all of that, and nicely.

Against the big bad guys, I have the holy trinity of debuffs (RI, EF, LR) all of which are auto hit. I have Quicksand which slows, debuffs defense and is auto hit. I have Stone Prison which is a Mag 4 immobilize for frisky targets that like to hop around. I have multiple holds and stuns, all of which debuff enemy defense as a bonus. I have Accelerate Metabolism, which buffs my entire team nicely. I have a pet who is enthusiastic and tough as a diamond, if not particularly intelligent (though he is often smarter than some of the team members in a PUG). I have a PBAE heal, and a nuke that doesn't drain my END when I fire it but does put out a long lasting hold. I have a power that can rez a fallen team member and buff him at the same time...and another that lets me use his body as a nuke before I rez him. Also, I believe someone earlier posted that you have to be on the ground to use the earth powers - this is not an accurate statement. There are several powers that *are* ground targeted, but only two that require *you* to be on/at the ground. Those are Stalagmites, and Fissure from the Earth Epic set. All the rest can be used while hovering, etc.

There are many great controller combos in the game, and many players who are better at the game than I...but for me, the best controller combo is Earth/Rad. It's a great package.


Teamsaver (Earth/Rad controller) and his trusty hench-boulder, Rocky
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
Please show me where I either imply indirectly or state directly about kin that "the set's not that great".

Waiting....
Wait no more. You said:
Quote:
This is such a high degree of wrong that....
... followed up with your personal expression of rage 'gainst the machine. This was in response to my remark that the best high end pve controllers will be Kinetics secondary. The degree in question (designated by "that") of greatness (contextually; see also my guide to the word necessary for helpful hints on context) is: that it is part of the best controller builds. Like I said.

You said it wasn't that great-- indeed you pretended to control a verbal outburst telling me just how wrong I was to say it was that great.

If you didn't mean what you said or think you may have been mistaken (as I've already said I may well be re: Cold), it comes across as much more honest and charming to say something like, "I may have to revise my opinion," or "Well, I guess I didn't really mean that." You should give it a try.

Quote:
If you think of Cold as just "bubbles" well I'm going to go ahead and finish those statements I was hesitant to make earlier and go ahead and say it's time to put you on the list of folks where I see their name and think "read with extreme skepticism".
I might start a list with people who can't keep track of what was said. In this case, I don't at all think and never said anything like "cold is just bubbles." So I'll trust that we can each make our own lists.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaschtroumpf View Post
To me /Storm is infinitely more fun to play that /Cold. Heck, than anything really.
That's sufficient to make /Storm my choice (I think I have 4 /storm controllers alone), they also provide a lot of diversity on how you play them depending on your style, build, size of team and primary.

The fun factor is a big part of what is "best" for me. My high level Earth/Rad is very powerful, but I often get bored playing him.

For the same reason I like Fire/ because it's different from other primaries, since you really have to be in melee a lot.

I've yet to play a combo where I don't think I make a significant contribution to the team.

my 2 cents.
Papa-- I have a grav/sonic at 39. Heh. Ever play that build?

Also, while I have no doubt Earth/Rad's impressive feeling, especially at times, I think it's important to weigh how willing people would be to team with you over, you know, any other build, in this question. Seems like that's at leat part of "best." And I can only think of a few situations I'd prefer an Earth/Rad on a large, late-game, otherwise detail-unknown team.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enantiodromos View Post
Well, fun to have injected more vitality into this debate. Yes, I don't have a L38+ */Cold. The way I read Cold Dom (it's been a while) vs Storm Summon, for big team play: Trade Hurricane and Dmg pseudopets for bubbles and heat loss. Disagree? Considering the roles I see hurricane and -Res playing, I have to admit Cold has a lot going for it. I may revise.
Cold has significant debuff advantages in -regen, -dmg, -res, -rech (single target; Storm has the aoe -rech advantage), and -special. Cold also has buff advantages in slow debuff resistance, unlimited endurance buff, and team defense.

Storm's advantages are damage, knockback, confuse resistance, a heal, end drain resistance, stuns and -tohit.

In my view, having played both to 50 several times, Storm is more fun and a better soloer, but Cold contributes dramatically more to a team. Cold is more comparable to /Rad than /Storm, frankly.


 

Posted

Quote:
If you didn't mean what you said or think you may have been mistaken (as I've already said I may well be re: Cold), it comes across as much more honest and charming to say something like, "I may have to revise my opinion," or "Well, I guess I didn't really mean that." You should give it a try.
There is absolutely no need for me to revise my opinion, as I was by no means mistaken (as you were with Cold). To boil it down to its essence - you say Kinetics is far and away the best Troller secondary, unless I'm misinterpreting this quote

Quote:
The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin.
I say Kin is far from "the very best" and provided a small sampling of reasons. I would supplement those with many many more other reasons why it wasn't the best if I were so inclined. I'm definitely not inclined, this has already take more time than merited.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Heat loss is really good. Benumb, however, is really good. Cold can do things that no other set can. With poison coming to controllers in I21 that's a little less true but cold is better than buffed poison.

That said, my latest project is a plant/storm. I already have a cold defender and I kind of feel like it shines with defender values on the debuffs and simply by being the primary set. Storm, meanwhile, is amazingly good at supplementing a strong controller primary by filling in virtually every area that could be called a deficit.

My vote is for plant/storm, oddly enough, but there's a dash of hopefulness in there as I haven't finished the character yet. Shaping up nicely, however.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Heat loss is really good. Benumb, however, is really good. Cold can do things that no other set can. With poison coming to controllers in I21 that's a little less true but cold is better than buffed poison.

That said, my latest project is a plant/storm. I already have a cold defender and I kind of feel like it shines with defender values on the debuffs and simply by being the primary set. Storm, meanwhile, is amazingly good at supplementing a strong controller primary by filling in virtually every area that could be called a deficit.

My vote is for plant/storm, oddly enough, but there's a dash of hopefulness in there as I haven't finished the character yet. Shaping up nicely, however.
I actually have a Plant/Cold/Stone right now, and I'm planning to roll a Plant/Storm/Stone. Not reroll, just roll another. Storm is just so ******* fun.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasiphae View Post
Cold has significant debuff advantages in -regen, -dmg, -res, -rech (single target; Storm has the aoe -rech advantage), and -special. Cold also has buff advantages in slow debuff resistance, unlimited endurance buff, and team defense.

Storm's advantages are damage, knockback, confuse resistance, a heal, end drain resistance, stuns and -tohit.

In my view, having played both to 50 several times, Storm is more fun and a better soloer, but Cold contributes dramatically more to a team. Cold is more comparable to /Rad than /Storm, frankly.
This.

I love /Cold it's an awesome set.

To the OP I'd vote for Elec/Cold(of course I would look at my sig) since it's a fun combination. With I21 coming I'd even vote for Elec/Poison. The synergy between the two sets are great and I will be rolling one to see which will do better between the Elec/Cold and Elec/Poison.


Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE -- _Ilr_
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
There is absolutely no need for me to revise my opinion, as I was by no means mistaken (as you were with Cold). To boil it down to its essence - you say Kinetics is far and away the best Troller secondary, unless I'm misinterpreting this quote
Obviously you are, since I named two other secondaries that are "close runners-up" in the very next sentence. Which brings us back to context and keeping track of what was said, and your qualifications for the list you mentioned.

Quote:
I say Kin is far from "the very best" and provided a small sampling of reasons. I would supplement those with many many more other reasons why it wasn't the best if I were so inclined. I'm definitely not inclined, this has already take more time than merited.
Except the none of your reasons are both relevant and accurate, as I showed. "I'm not inclined to explain myself," is a poor substitute for "I may have to revise my opinion," or "Well, I guess I didn't really mean that." You should try one of the latter.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Heat loss is really good. Benumb, however, is really good. Cold can do things that no other set can.
Right, I realize benumb is even better, but Heat Loss is really the part of the equation (aside from seeing animations & experiencing nuances) I've always been missing, I think, in my understanding of Cold. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to play a Cold Def here momentarily, as a result of this conversation.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters

 

Posted

Kin is my second least preferred secondary to have as a teammate (sonic being least). But that may not speak to it being best or worst for large teams. It speaks more to my lack of willingness to alter my behavior based on the presence of the kin wielder.

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enantiodromos View Post
Obviously you are, since I named two other secondaries that are "close runners-up" in the very next sentence. Which brings us back to context and keeping track of what was said, and your qualifications for the list you mentioned.



Except the none of your reasons are both relevant and accurate, as I showed. "I'm not inclined to explain myself," is a poor substitute for "I may have to revise my opinion," or "Well, I guess I didn't really mean that." You should try one of the latter.
Unfortuntely for you, your attempts to steer me into some sort of submission to you is just not going to work. You have yet to show any rationale at all to back up "The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin. " except smarmy rebukes with no substance to any challenges to your unsubstantiated claim. There is no need to revise my opinion and I definitely stated what I intended. "I'm not inclined to explain myself" is not a substitute for anything other than attempting to adhere to Twain's "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" which I acknowledge is too late for me at this point.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon View Post
Kin is my second least preferred secondary to have as a teammate (sonic being least). But that may not speak to it being best or worst for large teams. It speaks more to my lack of willingness to alter my behavior based on the presence of the kin wielder.
Well, right. What % of the time are you solo? What % of the time are you playing with at least 3 teammates in the 40+ range? I don't remember for sure that you've said, but isn't it something like 100%/0%?

Not that I never solo myself, mind you.


Deacon-- I apologise if you feel like somebody was trying to force you to submit to something. That wasn't me. I tried to focus on reasons for Kin/not, which was our chosen tangent. A little less tantrum and a little more reasoning goes a long way.


Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters

 

Posted

Quote:
Deacon-- I apologise if you feel like somebody was trying to force you to submit to something. That wasn't me. I tried to focus on reasons for Kin/not, which was our chosen tangent. A little less tantrum and a little more reasoning goes a long way.
Fair enough, I tip my hat, your last post did show you using "a little less tantrum" but I still have to say, after all these posts, I have yet to see any "more reasoning" about what makes a true statement out of "The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin." Perhaps it was simply poor wording to not reflect the relative ranking of Storm and Radiation, if that was your intent, that they were on par with Kin.

Regardless, I would have been very happy to engage in rational discourse of kinetics versus other controller secondaries. Unfortunately, nothing was submitted in defense of kin, other than to say "you're wrong!" when someone said otherwise.

I'm out! The last word is all yours...


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Enan,

It varies. If my friends are on, which they are about 50% of the time, we play on huge 8 man teams. The other 50% of the time is split evenly between solo and 3-boxing missions for xp and/or Purple recipes.

So I guess I truly solo 25% of the time, and I am on large teams half the time.

However, my opinion is further skewed by the fact that one of my friends pays for 8 accounts and he has these crazy teams with 3 bubblers, 2 rads, 2 stormies (all controllers or defenders) and a driver (usually a blaster or a tanker). He drops to make room for the 3 others (me, and 2 others). But as we also favor various controllers, we usually have these insane softcapped teams with tons of automatic damage or heavy controls or other special powers.

We sometimes have a kin for fulcrum shift but rarely are the other aspects of the set even used.

Not a common situation, I admit.

Lewis


Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

 

Posted

In defense of kin; there is a lot of 'rounding out' toons at the higher levels, especially post incarnate. There, the last bit of buff not generally in abundance (at least to capped levels) is +dam. To a lesser degree, +recovery and +recharge. Both are in kins wheelhouse.

Resistances and defenses are usually already high for melee toons. Squishies get those in their APP, PPPs (mine is one orange and one purp away from soft cap). Also, most high end toons have no problem hitting stuff, so -def is not so useful. -Res is very nice though, but not generally as game changing as fulcrum (imagine if there was a -res at the levels of fulcrum, game breaking for sure).

-Regen is probably the other big item. Again, kin has SOME of that.

So recap, kin has big damage, recharge and recovery, strong heals, a little -regen. These fill MOST of the blanks for your high level generic teammate and therefore brings a lot to a team.

Game play reflects this. A kin on a team makes the team considerably more potent.

The caveat, and probably the reason why kins are not so in demand, is that generally one is a enough. Several /storms, /colds and /sonics will out buff/debuff a kin of course. In fact, a couple of /colds on a team is pretty potent. The amount of -res and +recovery begins to stack with those.

Again, this is all in defense to kin (kinship ya'll know). Really, all of them are good for high end pve teams. Kin is generally better, but there are situations where it is not.


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Posted

That's very good reasoning, -regen and -res areextremely useful in the end game and is the one things most ATs don't bring.
Now I remember why I liked my old Dark/Sonic defender (just rerolled one for 2x XP weekend)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaschtroumpf View Post
That's very good reasoning, -regen and -res areextremely useful in the end game and is the one things most ATs don't bring.
Now I remember why I liked my old Dark/Sonic defender (just rerolled one for 2x XP weekend)
Love double tar patch on my corr. Dark/Sonic def and the corr analog are great since the more attacks and heals you do, the more you are doing for the team.

Too bad /dark isn't an option for controllers =[.


Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit