Rise of the planet of the Apes
By
Aquila_NA,
Posted on: 2011-08-04 23:34 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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It's not... |
Originally Posted by mousedroid
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that somewhere in our universe there is a planet that is 100% identical to the Earth? I know the universe is unimaginably immense but to me that sounds like utter nonsense.
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In fact scientists believe that there is...
Every possibility played out within our universe multiple times infinitely
Every possibility played out across an infinitely diverging space time
Every possibility played out across infinite amounts of membranes
This means that there are an infinite amount of exact duplicates of you and our planet spread across an 3 or 4 levels of infinite cosmology and also an infinite amount of "almost" exact duplicates as well. All it takes is someone taking the trip that far distant space and it is a 50/50 shot they'll meet their exact duplicate.
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As a scientist, I have to say that no, nobody believes all that.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
It's not...
In fact scientists believe that there is... Every possibility played out within our universe multiple times infinitely Every possibility played out across an infinitely diverging space time Every possibility played out across infinite amounts of membranes |
...
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and as a person that pays attention to this stuff I have to say yes, people who actually understand what the various facts bare out believe that.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
As a scientist, I have to say that no, nobody believes all that.
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Flat universe implies infinite universe implies infinite probability implies inevitable repeats infinitely
11 dimensional model, which is the standard view says there are infinite timelines for every "universe" that has time which implies inevitable repeat infinitely
11 dimensional model, string theory, and quantum computing implies infinite membranes and as such implies inevitable repeat infinitely
If you disagree with the most accurate mapping of the universe we have, the standard model, and models that have born fruit that make many of the other parts of our scientific understanding then I'm sorry, but you're not a very credible scientist... you may be right, but not very credible.
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Is that as a Scientist or a Squirrel?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I like bacon cookies.
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gotta be scientist.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Is that as a Scientist or a Squirrel?
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Squirrel would go for the pecan raisin every time
oooooo. wait. are those chocolate macadamia nut?! om nom nom nom
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Boulle almost certainly did that as an allegory. People argue back and forth if the point he was making was whether the bourgeoisie was taking over or we were mistreating the planet and it would bite us on the *** one day. Among other things. After his experiences in WW2 and the whole River Kwai thing, I find it hard to credit the first one. Perhaps he wrote it as a cautionary tale about brutes taking over, as he witnessed with Nazis and Vichy French.|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
Don't know if you're (general you, not specific) aware of this or not, but the ending of the 2001 remake was a nod to the ending of the Pierre Boulle novel that the whole franchise was based on. In the book
A) the planet of the apes (Soror) was a different world, but one that paralleled Earth's development, and B) the "Taylor" character in the book returned to Earth to find that 700 years had passed and the humans on Earth had made the same mistakes as the humans on Soror, and apes had become the dominate species on Earth too. Granted, the idea of two planets hundreds of light years apart developing identical intelligent lifeforms and experiencing similar historical events is pretty goofy these days, but in the context of the book it at least made more sense. The movie made it seem like some one had travelled to Earth's distant past and replaced humans with apes and it was more confusing than anything else. |
It's been so long since I read Monkey Planet that I don't recall if he mentioned anything in the book itself on that front, but he was definitely tweaking anti-science religious believers who refuse to allow an opposing idea into their narrow worldview. That aspect actually made it into the movie. The harder sciences of time dilation and linguistics was forfeited for a more typical Twilight Zone-style twist. (Since Rod Serling had a hand in the screenplay, that's not surprising.) I don't know if Boulle was ignorant of the impossibility of parallel evolution or if he did that on purpose.
Burton, who seems completely scientifically illiterate, was just lifting things he thought were cool.
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The movie does a really good job of hitting the high points of the story while preserving as many of the relevant details as possible. Making all the apes speak English was silly, but necessary I suppose.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
When I checked out the Pierre Boulle novel from the local library as a pre-teen, it became my first introduction to how novels and movies can end up being entirely different from each other. heh.
I recommend the novel, BTW. The final lines are nicely ironic and the novel itself is as much social satire as it is adventure. Just don't expect it to be a novelization of the screenplay. ;-) |
When Atlantis came back down, the internet meme that went around was, "When the shuttle lands, everyone wear ape suits. Pass it on." Oh how I laughed.
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What Durakken is saying is that a number of physicists (including Stephen Hawking) have pointed out that while the universe is infinite, information is not. So somewhere out there in the universe, specific sets of information are repeated, which means there is a planet called Earth with the exact same history and people as ours.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Just light speed travel, yeah not likely, but like I said, go far enough and that could be facilitated by any number of means, you could get a planet that is exactly the same as earth down to it's history and the people involved, but if it's just light travel to a close by planet then yeah that's not very likely at all, but that's why in those types of situations it's easy to use something more realistic for people that are sticklers for that type of thing.
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Which is mind-blowing on more than one level. Not the least because Durakken said something accurate in this thread.
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Actually, they do. It's part of the multiverse theory. (As opposed to the Many Worlds thing, which is different.) Hawking (I think it was) even went so far as to say that the math stipulates it's highly likely somewhere in the universe there is a singularity that is shooting out identical copies of everything we know: fridges, cars, favorite aunts....|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
As a scientist, I have to say that no, nobody believes all that.
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Quantum Mechanics truly makes my brane hurt.
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I don't have a problem with accepting the current multiverse theories or even the fantastic idea that there might be other Earths out there that are almost (or even exact) copies of our own. I just think the fundamental chances of finding those other Earths will always be very, very low. There's effectively no chance such a planet exists within a few 100 light years of us or that if we just fly off in some direction that it'll be a "50/50" chance we'll find one as Durakken implies.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
What Durakken is saying is that a number of physicists (including Stephen Hawking) have pointed out that while the universe is infinite, information is not. So somewhere out there in the universe, specific sets of information are repeated, which means there is a planet called Earth with the exact same history and people as ours.
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The theory is reasonable enough. But reality also dictates having rational expectations as well.
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There were scientists who believed the moon was made of green cheese too. That doesn't make their belief true or correct.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
In fact scientists believe that there is...
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That's not what I said or implied. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I don't have a problem with accepting the current multiverse theories or even the fantastic idea that there might be other Earths out there that are almost (or even exact) copies of our own. I just think the fundamental chances of finding those other Earths will always be very, very low. There's effectively no chance such a planet exists within a few 100 light years of us or that if we just fly off in some direction that it'll be a "50/50" chance we'll find one as Durakken implies.
The theory is reasonable enough. But reality also dictates having rational expectations as well. |
I said that the idea of meeting an exact copy is not absurd.
At this time it was no clear that the planet mentioned was supposedly only 350 light years away. When it was made clear. I clarified what I said.
The idea of duplicate Earths is fascinating, but I have a hard time accepting that the travels of the Starship Enterprise were grounded in hard science. But then again finding worlds with Romans and Nazis (and bears, oh my!) would be fun.
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Are you implying that the moon isn't made of green cheese?
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
There were scientists who believed the moon was made of green cheese too. That doesn't make their belief true or correct.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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[citation needed]
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
There were scientists who believed the moon was made of green cheese too. That doesn't make their belief true or correct.
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While I'll agree that it may be mathematically -possible- there are other Earths out there I think the effective chance we'll ever encounter such a planet is so low that discussing it in any venue outside of Sci-Fi is in fact borderline absurd. I love Star Trek as much as the next nerd, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
I said that the idea of meeting an exact copy is not absurd.
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Flat universe implies infinite *expansion*, but the amount of mass in the universe is finite, which means there is no infinite universe. Just a hot universe that cools and eventually reaches a heat death.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
and as a person that pays attention to this stuff I have to say yes, people who actually understand what the various facts bare out believe that.
Flat universe implies infinite universe implies infinite probability implies inevitable repeats infinitely |
Quote:
| 11 dimensional model, which is the standard view says there are infinite timelines for every "universe" that has time which implies inevitable repeat infinitely |
Quote:
| 11 dimensional model, string theory, and quantum computing implies infinite membranes and as such implies inevitable repeat infinitely |
It sounds to me as if you're mixing a whole bunch of non-related theories together and coming to a false impression of what they all predict. That's okay, I know how complicated it all is. But no scientific theory I know of says that we can get into a rocket ship and find clones of ourselves.
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Isn't it strange|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
But no scientific theory I know of says that we can get into a rocket ship and find clones of ourselves.
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Feels like I'm lookin' in the mirror
What would people say
If only they knew that I was
Part of some geneticist's plan (plan-plan-plan)
Born to be a carbon copy man (man-man-man)
There in a petri dish late one night
They took a donor's body cell and fertilized a human egg and so I say
I think I'm a clone now
There's always two of me just a-hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down
Look at the way
We go out walking close together
I guess you could say
I'm really beside myself
I still remember how it began (gan-gan-gan)
They produced a carbon copy man (man-man-man)
Born in a science lab late one night
Without a mother or a father, just a test tube and a womb with a view
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
There's always two of me just a-hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
And I can stay at home while I'm out of town
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
'Cause every pair of genes is a hand-me-down
Signing autographs for my fans
Come and meet the carbon copy man
Livin' in stereo, it's all right
Well I can be my own best friend and I can send myself for pizza so I say
I think I'm a clone now
Another one of me's always hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
I've been on Oprah Winfrey - I'm world renowned
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
And every pair of genes is a hand-me-down
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
That's my genetic twin always hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
Mary had a little lamb, its fleece was slightly grey.
It didn't have a father, just some borrowed DNA.
It sort of had a mother, though the ovum was on loan.
It was not so much a lambkin, as a little lamby clone.
And soon it had a fellow clone, and soon it had some more.
They followed her to school one day, all cramming through the door.
It made the children laugh and sing, the teachers found it droll;
There were too many lamby clones, for Mary to control.
No other could control the sheep, their programs didn't vary.
So they scientists resolved it all, by simply cloning Mary.
But now they feel quite sheepish, those scientists unwary.
One problem solved, but what to do, with Mary, Mary, Mary...
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
If you're going with the Brane model, then yes, you have (possibly) infinite universes...but it's very likely that they all have different laws of physics,
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Wrong, but I'm done arguing about it...back to talking about the awesomeness of this movie!
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Did you see the recent theory that we once had two moons and that the smaller one crashed into the larger? Since the moon is made of cheese, it stands to reason there was a cracker moon, too. And we've all left bits of cracker in a cheese ball. There you go, all proved up. Science!
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
There were scientists who believed the moon was made of green cheese too. That doesn't make their belief true or correct.
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Since we're derailed anyways...
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imho, the twist at the end of the novel was far more entertaining than the twist at the end of either the '68 film or the '01 film. Of course, the novel's twist would have been nearly impossible to pull off in a movie....
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
Don't know if you're (general you, not specific) aware of this or not, but the ending of the 2001 remake was a nod to the ending of the Pierre Boulle novel that the whole franchise was based on. In the book
A) the planet of the apes (Soror) was a different world, but one that paralleled Earth's development, and B) the "Taylor" character in the book returned to Earth to find that 700 years had passed and the humans on Earth had made the same mistakes as the humans on Soror, and apes had become the dominate species on Earth too. Granted, the idea of two planets hundreds of light years apart developing identical intelligent lifeforms and experiencing similar historical events is pretty goofy these days, but in the context of the book it at least made more sense. The movie made it seem like some one had travelled to Earth's distant past and replaced humans with apes and it was more confusing than anything else. |
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
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Many scientists do believe this. Some scientists also believe in God. However, when it comes to "Science", it doesn't matter what a scientist (or anyone) believes; it's what they can prove.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
It's not...
In fact scientists believe that there is... Every possibility played out within our universe multiple times infinitely Every possibility played out across an infinitely diverging space time Every possibility played out across infinite amounts of membranes This means that there are an infinite amount of exact duplicates of you and our planet spread across an 3 or 4 levels of infinite cosmology and also an infinite amount of "almost" exact duplicates as well. All it takes is someone taking the trip that far distant space and it is a 50/50 shot they'll meet their exact duplicate. |
A good scientific theory must be falsifiable. That means that has to be at least the possibility of finding evidence that proves it is not true. To say something is 'falsifiable' doesn't mean it is false; instead, it means that if it is false, the evidence or observation to prove it is false has to be accesable to us (at least in principle).
This is why creationism isn't a good theory. Invoking God as evidence isn't sound because I can never provide proof that God does (or does not) exist. In other words, God isn't falsifiable, and such is beyond the realm of scientific enquiery.
IMO, the many universes (or planes, whatever) theory, where all possibilities happen, is a theory that's in much the same boat. Outside of conjecture, is there any real evidence that any universe outside our own exist? Will I ever be able to peek into these other universes in any way? Will I ever observe their effects? If there isn't even the possibility of doing so, then such a 'theory' needs to be seriously questioned
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