NPR Top 100 Science Fiction/Fantasy Books


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Originally Posted by Slugbug View Post
On the other hand, the forums cannot contain how pleased I am that neither Harry Potter nor Twilight were on the list.
They were intentionally left out because they are considered 'young adult' reading and they want to do a similar list for YA fiction in the future.


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Aw, why'd you have to go and ruin such a nice happy feeling TrueMetal...


 

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Originally Posted by Slugbug View Post
Aw, why'd you have to go and ruin such a nice happy feeling TrueMetal...
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Originally Posted by Smersh View Post
But the categories blur so well. Star Wars is fantasy with sci-fi styling, and Master of Five Magics was science fiction with fantasy trappings.
OK, I'm curious. How was Master of Five Magics sci-fi? Was Secret of the Sixth? Is this something to do with literary tech like plot structure and theme and other fancy words?!


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Originally Posted by TrueMetal View Post
They were intentionally left out because they are considered 'young adult' reading and they want to do a similar list for YA fiction in the future.
The seemingly arbitrary splitting off of "Young Adult" bothers me more than the lack of division between Sci-Fi and Fantasy. It horribly delayed me finding The Looking Glass Wars series at the bookstore. Meanwhile, Watership Down (which was one of the 10 I chose, I mind) is something I would think of as Young Adult.


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Originally Posted by Lobster View Post
OK, I'm curious. How was Master of Five Magics sci-fi? Was Secret of the Sixth? Is this something to do with literary tech like plot structure and theme and other fancy words?!
Yes, they were both sci-fi in my book.

Instead of postulating some bit of science that was other than what we know today and exploring a world where that was the case (my personal working definition of sci-fi), it postulated a world where science is something completely different - the five magics. It clearly laid out the rules for what each discipline did, and kept it all very clear and concise. There was not a sense of 'then a series of miracles happen' to it. At the core, Master of Five Magics was about cross-training in different scientific disciplines. Secret of the Sixth Magic was about how you handle living in a world where science can radically change into something else, and figuring out what that is.

Basically, sci-fi is about exploring a premise or series of premises. Fantasy is much more about the hero's journey.


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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
I rather agree and hate how the two categories are thrown together so often (I've thought it ever since I first worked at a bookstore). However, they do have some overlaps in their major works, as Smersh said, but also in their overall goal. They're unlike our world, but only in order to help us gain perspective on how our world really works. Hindsight and traveling to other countries always help us to gain perspectives on ourselves and where we come from.
From the outside looking in, the bolded bit is how people see science fiction and fantasy -- as one genre loosely defined as depicting the world as something than it is or was. From the inside, people not only see divisions between SF and fantasy, but they can further pigeon hole works into "cyberpunk" or "steampunk", "swords and sorcery", or "high fantasy".

People like labelling things -- the story of labelling things even shows up rather early in western literature. And, further, people also like arguing about those labels, especially if some sort of group identification is at stake.

FWIW, I actually think the SF / Fantasy section in a bookstore is relatively sane. But ... fiction? Krikey. You can have 3 solid centuries' worth of novels crammed in next to each other, from the epistolic (The Expedition of Humphrey Clinker) to the psychotic (The Naked Lunch) and lord knows what else in between.


 

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Originally Posted by Smersh View Post
I, also, liked the Zahn trilogy. He really got what made it Star Wars. I tried to keep up with the EU early on, but true duds like Darksaber and The Crystal Star drove me away. I got rid of most of them... but I kept the Zahn trilogy.

I enjoyed On Basilisk Station - it reminded me a lot of Horatio Hornblower. I didn't go past the second book in that series, though.
Best of the EU, in my opinion, are the Zahn trilogy and the x-wing books - or, at least, they're my favorites. I, Jedi is also good, although you do have to deal with the blah-ness of the jedi academy books that overlap with the first half. And yeah, darksaber and crystal star were crap.

And if you liked Basilisk Station, you might want to do yourself a favor and pick up the hardcover of Mission of Honor, the most recent main storyline novel. A *very* nice thing Baen is doing is packing CDs full of ebooks into some of their hardcovers - explicitly marked 'you may copy and share this'. The CD should include every single previous book in the Honor universe, as well as a healthy selection of Weber's other work as well as that of some other Baen authors (who also have some pretty good stuff). It's a ridiculously good deal, especially since it'll fill you in on all 10 main storyline Honor books between Basilisk Station and Mission of Honor, as well as the first 4 short story anthologies and the 4 (so far) books in the two side branches of the story. It's definitely a hefty series by now, but they're very good in my opinion.


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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino View Post
Best of the EU, in my opinion, are the Zahn trilogy and the x-wing books - or, at least, they're my favorites. I, Jedi is also good, although you do have to deal with the blah-ness of the jedi academy books that overlap with the first half. And yeah, darksaber and crystal star were crap.

And if you liked Basilisk Station, you might want to do yourself a favor and pick up the hardcover of Mission of Honor, the most recent main storyline novel. A *very* nice thing Baen is doing is packing CDs full of ebooks into some of their hardcovers - explicitly marked 'you may copy and share this'. The CD should include every single previous book in the Honor universe, as well as a healthy selection of Weber's other work as well as that of some other Baen authors (who also have some pretty good stuff). It's a ridiculously good deal, especially since it'll fill you in on all 10 main storyline Honor books between Basilisk Station and Mission of Honor, as well as the first 4 short story anthologies and the 4 (so far) books in the two side branches of the story. It's definitely a hefty series by now, but they're very good in my opinion.
That'd be a lot more tempting if I had an e-reader... reading books on my desktop computer screen is not my cup of tea, and I just don't have anywhere else to put an e-book.


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Originally Posted by TrueMetal View Post
Meh. The lines between the genres are often so thin that they're hardly worth bothering with.

Where would you put Friedman's Coldfire trilogy or Otherland by Tad Williams or Nnedi Okorafor's Who Fears Death? You could make strong cases to place all those in either genre. Or Star Wars? Lots of space opera has no more basis in science than Lord of the Rings does. The whole superhero genre falls straight in the middle as well.
Just wanted to thank you for actually acknowledging that the Coldfire Trilogy is also scifi. I know it's not made superclear in plot summaries for the books, but her entire universe is based on science! Why don't people realize this, argh! I lost a fight on Wikipedia to get them classed as scifi because the head of the Novels project "didn't see it." :|


 

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I'm still considering my votes, but I did note oddities in the list. I think the Discworld series should be considered as a series much like other series (i.e. Xanth). I think its a little odd that Brin has Earth but not Kiln People (although Earth is more noted for its predictions, which is probably why its there). His Dark Materials should probably be in there somewhere although it might be (incorrectly) classified as young adult fiction along with Twilight and Harry Potter.

I'm finding that some choices just seem automatic. Ender's Game, for example, and Lord of the Rings. But then I start wondering: is Neverwhere really a great story, or do I just like it a lot. Am I really remembering The Lathe of Heaven as a great novel, or am I just remembering the really crazy movie (the original, not the remake). Do I vote The Demolished Man on the strength of its historical importance and its very obvious trailblazing work even if I don't know if I would necessarily recommend it to the average scifi reader today? And things like the Manifold trilogy and the Night's Dawn trilogy are great works, but extremely narrowcasted towards lovers of extremely hard science fiction and space operas respectively.

Plus, I find myself thinking as much about the authors as the works. A list of the best science fiction and fantasy works that doesn't include something by Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, Neal Stephenson, Phillip K. Dick, Arthur C. Clarke, or Ray Bradbury just seems wrong, but that doesn't seem fair to the works themselves.

I don't even know what to think about works like The Time Traveller's Wife or Gravity's Rainbow.


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Originally Posted by Smersh View Post
That'd be a lot more tempting if I had an e-reader... reading books on my desktop computer screen is not my cup of tea, and I just don't have anywhere else to put an e-book.
Hmm, well e-readers aren't too overwhelmingly expensive nowadays...


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Wow, talk about a hard list to try and compile.

In the end, I tried to strike a balance between recent and classic fiction, sci-fi and fantasy, and to choose books that I still look back at today as something that made a personal impression upon me. There are so many that qualify from a strictly affected the world standpoint that it seems like a personal list is really the more appropriate one.

Even so, ten is way too few to have to choose. As it was, I had to make decisions based on things like "I already chose that Author once - I need to expand beyond one person's works".

My final list:

A Canticle for Liebowitz - I recently re-read this as an e-book and I was blown away at just how good this old classic is even decades after it's initial publication.

I Am Legend - One of the most often filmed sci-fi stories ever and the films still have nothing on the stark story-telling of the original text.

The Illuminatus! Trilogy - A lot of stories claim they'll "blow your mind" but Illuminatus! actually accomplished it.

The Lord of the Rings - 'nuff said

The Martian Chronicles - I break my unspoken rule above and have Bradbury twice. I read this in third grade and it opened my eyes to ideas that went way beyond just rockets into space. It's literally been nearly forty years since I last read it and I still remember parts of it vividly.

Something Wicked This Way Comes - This book instilled in me, or maybe brought out in me, a love of an entire genre that rotates around summer and lost innocence and the Americana that probably never really existed except in the popular imagination. This book may be prose but it's spirit is pure poetry, exceeded only by The Halloween Tree, another Bradbury masterpiece.

The Stand - King's greatest work, IMO, and one that manages to capture the spirit of The Lord of the Rings while still telling a believable modern-day story.

The Vlad Taltos Series - If my avatar doesn't already give it away, I am a big Brust fan and consider this series to be one of the best pseudo-fantasy series around. Or maybe it's a pseudo-sci-fi series. It sort of depends on your viewpoint, and Brust makes it clear that neither classification really matters. This series embraces the idea of the "unreliable narrator" and encourages readers to make their own conclusions about what constitutes "truth", particularly when dealing with history. Pretty much like real life.

The War of the Worlds - Another story that made a big impact on me and whose message, that man could fail while the most humble creatures on the planet could ultimately save us, made a big impression on a young impressionable mind.

Watership Down - This is hands down one of the best fantasies of any kind every written. Watership Down is so much more than just a "quest fantasy" with bunnies as protagonists. The proof of this is that so many imitators tried to duplicate its success and managed to fail completely. The mythology of the rabbits is every bit as compelling as that of the peoples in Tolkein's stories. I'd rank it as one of the best novels every written, frankly.

There are so many more great books on that list. It's a bit painful to have to choose only ten.


 

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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino View Post
Hmm, well e-readers aren't too overwhelmingly expensive nowadays...
Well, then, feel free to pick one up for me next time you're at the store.


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Originally Posted by Slugbug View Post
On the other hand, the forums cannot contain how pleased I am that neither Harry Potter nor Twilight were on the list.
I'm with you on Twilight, but there is more to Potter than just being popular, which is about all I can say for Twilight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueMetal View Post
They were intentionally left out because they are considered 'young adult' reading and they want to do a similar list for YA fiction in the future.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
The seemingly arbitrary splitting off of "Young Adult" bothers me more than the lack of division between Sci-Fi and Fantasy. It horribly delayed me finding The Looking Glass Wars series at the bookstore. Meanwhile, Watership Down (which was one of the 10 I chose, I mind) is something I would think of as Young Adult.
People are forever separating YA from "Adult" literature, even though good YA literature is every bit as strong as the latter. And it often doesn't mince words, like "adult" fiction can. This distinction gets even more ironic with sci-fi and fantasy, two genres that have often been derided as kiddy. Two heavy hitters, Tolkien and Madeline L'Engle (and boy, should some of her stuff be on this list), both confronted the idea of whether fantasy is just for kids.

Here's a favorite quote of mine from L'Engle on the subject:

“The artist, if he is not to forget how to listen, must retain the vision which includes angels and dragons and unicorns, and all the lovely creatures which our world would put in a box marked Children Only


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Originally Posted by FallenAngelEyes View Post
Just wanted to thank you for actually acknowledging that the Coldfire Trilogy is also scifi. I know it's not made superclear in plot summaries for the books, but her entire universe is based on science! Why don't people realize this, argh! I lost a fight on Wikipedia to get them classed as scifi because the head of the Novels project "didn't see it." :|
Really? I mean it's been more than a decade since I read the series, but one of the things I remember about the thing was that it was set in the future on a failed colony planet and that there were other little sci-fi tidbits laying around the story.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I don't even know what to think about works like The Time Traveller's Wife or Gravity's Rainbow.
A few of those choices were highly questionable. I mean, Animal House? Really? I know that people seem to classify Orwell as sci-fi for some fairly bizarre reasons, but why that one? It's political satire. Talking animals does not make it automatically fall into either fantasy or sci-fi.

Likewise, The Princess Bride. I'm probably one of the few people who own and have read the book, but that's because the movie is one of those rare films that is better than the book. Anybody who has actually read The Princess Bride would laugh at its classification as "fantasy".

Was there any Michael Crichton on there at all? If there was, I didn't notice. The Andromeda Strain, at least, is just about as hard sci-fi as you can get and it's a gripping story even though it's fairly dated today.

Oh, well. I think that the list is mostly pretty solid and it's only big drawback is that it's so challenging to choose only a handful of them as "best".


 

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I'm rather pleasantly surprised by the list. It was a fairly good list covering a broad range of styles and sub-genre, the quality of the stories ranging from decent to pretty darn good. I didn't see anything I would call a bad book on the list. Oh a few not the style I enjoy but even in those cases good examples of the type that doesn't do it for me.

Still I missed things like The People, and The Traveler in Black which really should have been on that list.


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The Demolished Man, for the win.



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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
A few of those choices were highly questionable. I mean, Animal House? Really? I know that people seem to classify Orwell as sci-fi for some fairly bizarre reasons, but why that one? It's political satire. Talking animals does not make it automatically fall into either fantasy or sci-fi.

Likewise, The Princess Bride. I'm probably one of the few people who own and have read the book, but that's because the movie is one of those rare films that is better than the book. Anybody who has actually read The Princess Bride would laugh at its classification as "fantasy".
Meh, I would consider 1984 as sci-fi without batting an eye, especially for the time it was written in. I see no problem with labeling Animal Farm as fantasy. Yes, they are both political satire, but then again, so is much of what Terry Pratchett has written and I don't know anybody who doesn't consider Discworld to be a fantasy series. Point is, it can be both.

Same with Princess Bride. Yes I own the book and I've read it about as often as I've seen the movie. I would argue about the film being better than the book, but it largely comes down to taste. The film is certainly more accessible for more people, but in my opinion the book is better. And while it certainly also falls into satire (and romance and mystery and suspense and several other categories) it can comfortably be classified as fantasy.


 

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Originally Posted by TrueMetal View Post
Friedman's Coldfire trilogy
I'm glad to see this mentioned by someone else. One o' my faves.


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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
I'm with you on Twilight, but there is more to Potter than just being popular, which is about all I can say for Twilight.
I agree wholeheartedly that Potter is better than Twilight, I've just had my share of arguments with people who say that Potter is the best thing ever written, only to find out that they don't really read much. I'm just tired of people who say Rowling is the greatest author ever, and then find that they haven't read Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, Lewis, Orwell, Tolkien, etc. Potter is something that from a popularity standpoint I would expect to see on a list like this, but that I would personally leave out of this list were I compiling it. Not that it's a bad series, but certainly not the best.

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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
People are forever separating YA from "Adult" literature, even though good YA literature is every bit as strong as the latter. And it often doesn't mince words, like "adult" fiction can. This distinction gets even more ironic with sci-fi and fantasy, two genres that have often been derided as kiddy. Two heavy hitters, Tolkien and Madeline L'Engle (and boy, should some of her stuff be on this list), both confronted the idea of whether fantasy is just for kids.

Here's a favorite quote of mine from L'Engle on the subject:

“The artist, if he is not to forget how to listen, must retain the vision which includes angels and dragons and unicorns, and all the lovely creatures which our world would put in a box marked Children Only
And I have ranted before and in other places about drawing an arbitrary line and saying "these are children's books" and "these are adult books". Granted, much of what most people classify as "adult science fiction/fantasy" I wouldn't want to see being pushed on 7 year olds, and I don't think many of them would appreciate it. But then, I started reading many of the authors on this list when I was about 10.


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'm still considering my votes, but I did note oddities in the list. I think the Discworld series should be considered as a series much like other series (i.e. Xanth).
I noticed this about Discworld and Xanth. I understand and even agree with the Discworld series being separated as it's not so much a series of continuous events as it is a bunch of distinct stories that all happen to take place in the same world. But then they put Xanth in as one entry, and I would argue the same thing about that series.


 

Posted

Not impressed with this list at all. They really need to limit it to a single work by each author in order to eliminate flavor of the month selections as well as silly choices like half the Heinlein ones. Way too many Mieville and Gaiman books on that list, yet only one each from John Brunner and John Scalzi. None from Jack Chalker or Jack Vance. (Apparently they are biased against guys named John.) I don't get how they've designated a "series" either. I don't like the Ender books, but they're every bit as much a series as the Dune novels.

And Battlefield Earth? Really? Who outside the cult finds that even readable?

It's also way past time we separated Fantasy and Science Fiction.

I'm guessing most of the top finishers are a foregone conclusion: LotR, Song of Ice & Fire, Ender's Game, Hitchhiker's Guide, Armor by Steakley, Perdido Street Station, etc. and so yawn.


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Originally Posted by Freitag View Post
I guess my biggest issue with the list is one of principle. There are so many great works of Science Fiction, and so many great works of Fantasty that have been written. The two are so often lumped together, but I personally think they're different. It might be better to have a Science Fiction 10/100 list, and a Fantasy 10/100 list. that would certainly have made picking easier for me.

~Freitag
Exactly. It's true that readers of SF will often read Fantasy (but little traffic going the other way, so your literary commute is easy), and it's likewise true that SF was originally derived from Fantasy, but the genres and the readership have diverged so much at this point that lumping them together is pointless.

I know people who read nothing but Star Trek novels or Warhammer novels, which is even more fractionalized than splitting the two major genres.


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