A premium feature I'm surprised no one has asked for yet with the new F2P system
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-07-29 11:33 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Hmm, well, I don't think I'd be "for" a total respec to a whole other AT. I do, however, support respecing within an AT (a blaster stays a blaster but can respec from ice/fire to ice/elec or to elec/fire or whatever). I think that keeping it this way would alleviate some of the (I think justified) concerns that people have expressed.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
Actually this thread has no such restriction in respec type, just tiers of cost, if you go from nrg/dev blaster to Kat/Fire scrapper you pay the highest price of all
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Lol. You never did answer the question. Which I must admit, I find amusing. You have yet to say in any of your posts why you don't. I find that "curious", and I am the curious sort about some things. |
Originally Posted by Tahliah
And I liked your take on it, with the exception of E. Why does that bother YOU so much?
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Personally, I suspect that until Positron and a few other key players in the Dev staff leave, any type of power set respec won't happen. It's all about "design philosophy". Mind you I could be wrong about this, and will gladly admit it should they suddenly implement it.
I also agree with the quote of Memphis Bill's that Je Saist posted. Why would they do it at this point, if they could make more money off of enticing folks to subscribe?
Anyway, have fun storming the castle.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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But they also want to make long-time subscribers feel appreciated, and one of those ways is to solve the dilemma of "the new/proliferated set would fit this old character so much better, but if I reroll I'll lose all those anniversary badges". |
Originally Posted by je_saist
Implementing Power set respecs, even as a Purchase option, would immediately, and irrevocably, remove one of the MAJOR INCENTIVES of a subscribers account over a F2P account.
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If it were a VIP Tier 9 reward, it would be an extra incentive to stay subscribed (and an extra thank-you to old-time subscribers) instead of a way for Premium players to avoid buying new slots.
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Ah! So what you're saying is that you'd expect power set respec purchases to be available to VIP accounts only?
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Implementing Power set respecs, even as a Purchase option, would immediately, and irrevocably, remove one of the MAJOR INCENTIVES of a subscribers account over a F2P account.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
I really don't see a major issue with this, provided it's limited by being expensive (with those new PPs), having a VIP requirement, and you have to stay within the AT.
What true exploits are there? I level a /WP brute to 50 then switch to Invul? If that's an exploit because WP is so much easier to level, then that's indicative of a Powerset Imbalance that needs fixing.
No single Powerset within an AT should be so much easier or faster than another that it's considered exploitable by swapping them.
And it's not like there isn't genre examples of this (Electric Superman, Rogue getting Ms Marvel's powers...)
Now, if the Devs just dont want to do this just because they don't want to do this, well it's their game... but I generally consider people with that attitude (Devs or not) a bit curmudgeony 
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Of course your imaginary friends did. I'm sure you are right that the brief explanation you gave them allowed them to instantly master all aspects of the game including how powers work differently in PvP.
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Originally Posted by Fixxer
Like I said... Does not require a genius to learn to play any AT. Sorry if this hurts your feelings but it is very true. The "skill" you speak of is knowing the game and powers and how to use them... Never had a grav controller.... but I'm betting I could PL one to 50 and do just fine...because I have played controllers..understand how the game works..and am not illiterate and can read what a power does. This game requires very little skill... which in NO way means I support total power respecs. But to use the "OH NOES It will make noobs out of people" argument... is BS. Those people who can't figure out how to play a toon after 30 minutes...have severe learning deficiencies.
I have brought 4-5 people into this game by showing them the game...and then sitting there for a few minutes explaining things to them... and then let them play one of my 50's..NONE of them has ever said anything like "OMG this is soo confusing." So again... baseless and pointless argument..unless of course you are comparing all players to brain dead monkeys. Which I will admit in my 6 years...I have come across a few players..noob and veteran alike; that fit that category quite well. |
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And they already made long time subscribers feel appreciated by giving us a brand new server, the ability to pick the vet rewards we want instead of waiting years for them, between 400-550 free Paragon Points each month, 1 free server transfer each month when Freedom goes live.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
But they also want to make long-time subscribers feel appreciated.
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No your saying that.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Ah! So what you're saying is that you'd expect power set respec purchases to be available to VIP accounts only?
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Fixed that for ya.
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Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess
The AE would have been a better system if not for the people who willfully abuse it. Discuss.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Since the argument was that total respecs would make noob players who get MISSIONS and TFs to fail... your attempt at bringing pvp into the matter is baseless. I am sorry it takes you a long time to learn how to play this game... it is rather easy imo.
Again...still not supporting complete power respecs.. just not for the "reasons" often given.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Of course your imaginary friends did. I'm sure you are right that the brief explanation you gave them allowed them to instantly master all aspects of the game including how powers work differently in PvP.
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I believe the last word on why they don't want it was that it's counter to the alt friendly design of the game. I could see them reconsidering now that we have an end game, but I doubt it.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Now, if the Devs just dont want to do this just because they don't want to do this, well it's their game... but I generally consider people with that attitude (Devs or not) a bit curmudgeony
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It's also HIGHLY exploitable and destroys the balance between various powersets of a given AT. |
Originally Posted by Shadow State
I believe the last word on why they don't want it was that it's counter to the alt friendly design of the game. I could see them reconsidering now that we have an end game, but I doubt it.
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Example:
Stone Tanks are virtually unkillable after you get Granite Armor - The balance point of that is you are rather squishy before you get Granite.
If Total Respecs existed you could level up as a Willpower Tank, who start out strong and level easily, and just switch your character over to Stone at level 34 (which is when you can 6 slot Granite Armor). Voila, you just got to the good part of a set without having to play through the weak part.
Same goes with scrappers:
/Shield Defense scrappers get insanely powerful at high levels, but much like Stone Tanks, they are a little squishy at low levels. Enter Total Respecs, now you can level as a /Regen scrapper (which still level very quickly) and switch to Shield Defense at level 35 or so (when Shield Charge is available)
Every AT has powersets like this that are powerful in the late game in exchange for being relatively weak in the early game. If you could respec between powersets at will you'd completely destroy that balance point, and probably get a LOT of those late game powerhouses nerfed into the dirt because there would no longer be any drawbacks to balance their late game power.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I would not be against a VIP-only powerset or even AT respec that cost $50.00.
As I've said before I'm not against anything that the devs can put in the store or use to make money now that the game has gone F2P.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Sorry but I don't buy exchanging performance now for performance later as a valid balance point. No AT/Power Set should be leveling at a rate that would be unacceptable on any other, especially when power leveling can already completely destroy that "balance."
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's also HIGHLY exploitable and destroys the balance between various powersets of a given AT.
Example: Stone Tanks are virtually unkillable after you get Granite Armor - The balance point of that is you are rather squishy before you get Granite. If Total Respecs existed you could level up as a Willpower Tank, who start out strong and level easily, and just switch your character over to Stone at level 34 (which is when you can 6 slot Granite Armor). Voila, you just got to the good part of a set without having to play through the weak part. Same goes with scrappers: /Shield Defense scrappers get insanely powerful at high levels, but much like Stone Tanks, they are a little squishy at low levels. Enter Total Respecs, now you can level as a /Regen scrapper (which still level very quickly) and switch to Shield Defense at level 35 or so (when Shield Charge is available) Every AT has powersets like this that are powerful in the late game in exchange for being relatively weak in the early game. If you could respec between powersets at will you'd completely destroy that balance point, and probably get a LOT of those late game powerhouses nerfed into the dirt because there would no longer be any drawbacks to balance their late game power. |
I have on more than one occasion deleted characters that didn't work out, most recently a level 47 ice/energy tank. I rerolled him as an ice/fire tank and am much happier for it.
Having said that, I still would not support a full character respec (even within the same AT), it is just too easy to abuse.
Make a man a fire and keep him warm for the day, SET a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Incarnates: K'lir(Fire/Dark Corr):Hot-House Flower(Plant/Fire Dom):Kinrad X(Kin/Rad Def):Itsy-Bitsy Spider(Crab):Two Ton Tony(Mace/WP Broot):Teeny Weeny Widow(Fortunata/Widow) : Zeroth Law (Ice/Fire Tank)
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Doesn't matter if you buy it or not.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Sorry but I don't buy exchanging performance now for performance later as a valid balance point.
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What matters is whether or not the developers buy it.
And the reality is, the developers allow some of the existing archetypes to stand based on exchanging performance now for performance later.
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| No AT/Power Set should be leveling at a rate that would be unacceptable on any other, |
Well, let me tell you about some of the archtypes, such as the defender.
It's possible when making a defender to create a character that has no debuffs, but several strong buffs, such as taking the Empathy or Force Field Primary Set. It's also possible to couple these primary sets with a secondary set that offers no debuffs, such as Archery. Ergo, it is possible to create a character that won't put out as much Damage on a target as another power-set combination in the same archetype.
For such players their leveling experience, if played solo without a team, will inevitably be slower than say a Defender that picked a primary set with Debuffs and a secondary set that has damage, such as Storm Summoning.
The game itself destroys whatever point you thought you had Shadow State. Leveling experiences can differ wildly between archetypes. Some are better suited to racking up levels while soloing. Some are better suited to racking up levels with teams.
That is how the game was designed.
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| especially when power leveling can already completely destroy that "balance." |
Slight problem, Power Leveling is not as common as you seem to think it is.
Believe it or not, there are several players who actually get out of the AE buildings in Atlas Park / Port Oakes / RWZ and go do story arcs and task forces / strike forces.
Maybe you should join them sometime.
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Have any quotes from a dev saying that? Honest question, I'll still think it's bad design but I'd like to know if they have.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Doesn't matter if you buy it or not.
What matters is whether or not the developers buy it. And the reality is, the developers allow some of the existing archetypes to stand based on exchanging performance now for performance later. |
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You... never actually have played City of Heroes have you? Well, let me tell you about some of the archtypes, such as the defender. It's possible when making a defender to create a character that has no debuffs, but several strong buffs, such as taking the Empathy or Force Field Primary Set. It's also possible to couple these primary sets with a secondary set that offers no debuffs, such as Archery. Ergo, it is possible to create a character that won't put out as much Damage on a target as another power-set combination in the same archetype. For such players their leveling experience, if played solo without a team, will inevitably be slower than say a Defender that picked a primary set with Debuffs and a secondary set that has damage, such as Storm Summoning. |
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| The game itself destroys whatever point you thought you had Shadow State. Leveling experiences can differ wildly between archetypes. Some are better suited to racking up levels while soloing. Some are better suited to racking up levels with teams. |
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Which would be a problem if the majority of the game power-leveled. Slight problem, Power Leveling is not as common as you seem to think it is. Believe it or not, there are several players who actually get out of the AE buildings in Atlas Park / Port Oakes / RWZ and go do story arcs and task forces / strike forces. Maybe you should join them sometime. |
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Je saist actually already addressed the point, but I'll reiterate it. |
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Sorry but I don't buy exchanging performance now for performance later as a valid balance point. No AT/Power Set should be leveling at a rate that would be unacceptable on any other, especially when power leveling can already completely destroy that "balance."
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Go solo an Empathy/Psi Defender, then go solo a Rad/Sonic Defender.
Which one levels faster?
Oh, and the fact that Radiation Emission for defenders gets pretty much all of it's key powers by level 12. Empathy starts getting it's good powers later, and Empaths are more expected than Rads to take Leadership powers and things like Recall Friend.
An Empath frequently takes 30 levels to start becoming the character it's supposed to be. Conversely, before IOs a Rad would be just about as good as it was ever going to get as soon as you could buy SOs.
Okay, that was an example of differing powersets in the same AT.
Now go solo a Willpower/Dark Melee tank and a Dark Melee/Willpower brute (or scrapper).
Same powersets, wildly different leveling speed. And again, they would level at the same rate on teams.
Whether you buy it as a valid balance point or not, the fact remains that it IS one of the balance points between power sets and ATs.
Stone tanks are only allowed to become as indestructible as they are because they are one of the weaker sets when leveling to that point.
Shield Defense characters in general start slow but get insanely powerful later.
Fire/Kin controllers? Yeah, night and day from level 37 to 38. getting Fulcrum Shift changes how they play completely.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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There are more than one form of communications used by the devs for example this was an answer given in a live Q&A at a recent Con.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Have any quotes from a dev saying that?
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What is the chance of having a "wipe clean" respec for a toon to repick powers or Archtype. I have been told the reason is no heroes ever change their powers. I have to disagree on that. Superman Red/Blue or Guy Gardner and their are a lot more. A vetpwr? Positron - The reason isn't that those characters don't, it's more that a complete overhaul invalidates a ton of work we've put into making the game alt-friendly. |
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Yes, and...? Sorry, are you saying that is a sufficient amount of appreciation forever and now they don't have to listen to anything long-time subscribers ask for, ever again? If not, then what exactly is the point there?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
And they already made long time subscribers feel appreciated by giving us a brand new server, the ability to pick the vet rewards we want instead of waiting years for them, between 400-550 free Paragon Points each month, 1 free server transfer each month when Freedom goes live.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's also HIGHLY exploitable and destroys the balance between various powersets of a given AT.
Every AT has powersets like this that are powerful in the late game in exchange for being relatively weak in the early game. If you could respec between powersets at will you'd completely destroy that balance point, and probably get a LOT of those late game powerhouses nerfed into the dirt because there would no longer be any drawbacks to balance their late game power. |
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Wow, I don't think I've seen an entitlement issue this bad for... well... a while at least.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Yes, and...? Sorry, are you saying that is a sufficient amount of appreciation forever and now they don't have to listen to anything long-time subscribers ask for, ever again? If not, then what exactly is the point there?
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Are you seriously going to argue that The developers have to give the long-time subscribers a gameplay option that the developers do not want to give any players because the developers say it goes completely contrary to the design of their game?
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| What if they only allow a single powerset respec per character, and only *to* sets that wasn't available for the AT at the time the character was made? |
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Aw, sorry, I thought I had answered this in my original response to your criteria:|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Lol. You never did answer the question. Which I must admit, I find amusing. You have yet to say in any of your posts why you don't. I find that "curious", and I am the curious sort about some things.
Personally, I suspect that until Positron and a few other key players in the Dev staff leave, any type of power set respec won't happen. It's all about "design philosophy". Mind you I could be wrong about this, and will gladly admit it should they suddenly implement it. I also agree with the quote of Memphis Bill's that Je Saist posted. Why would they do it at this point, if they could make more money off of enticing folks to subscribe? Anyway, have fun storming the castle. |
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Not crazy about E simply because the unfamiliarity with the powersets may not be true (I'd switch a secondary out and am familiar with it, just not on that toon obviously), but the rest works. I've only got one toon that I'd want to change her secondary to better fit her concept (there were no dual pistols when I made her). While it's not a big deal to me--if it were, I guess I could rename her and reroll with /dp (or delete her *gasp* Nevah!), but . . . well, that's just not going to happen, it would be nice to respec her to /dp. Very nice. [waffling, indecisive comment ends due to waffling indecision] |
But hey, glad I could amuse you (and hopefully make you smile, however wryly).
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I'm saying that we aren't entitled to make demands about what the devs choose to give us as a show of appreciation. When people start acting childish and petty about the gifts they receive it's far more likely that the gifts will stop coming. We are very lucky that our devs are so generous.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Yes, and...? Sorry, are you saying that is a sufficient amount of appreciation forever and now they don't have to listen to anything long-time subscribers ask for, ever again? If not, then what exactly is the point there?
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I blame the parents. Most entitlement issues originate in the home where mom and dad never taught their kids the meaning of the word "No."
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Originally Posted by je_saist
You don't handle being told NO very well do you?
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My idea was a different take on things.