Does your secondary REALLY matter as an Empath?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by DrGemini View Post
I will say it again for those who seem to want to either ignore what I said or misquote me.

There are 0 IO sets or Incarnate abilities that can truly replace the things any normal buff/debuff set can provide. Yes, incarnate abilities and IO stuff are extremely helpful. But, anyone who thinks they can truly replace the classic buffs or debuffs of the game is rather ignorant.
Now, that is not to say that you need a certain mix of powers to win. This game is great at letting people play what they want to play and still have a great chance at success.

Now, if you want to argue that perhaps Empathy should be updated in the wake of all the "shields" that were converted to AoE instead of single target, then that is something I might agree with. But, to say that Empathy is useless is just plain ignorant of the facts staring you in the face.
I don't know. When teamed with 7 IOed out, defense and damage machines. What's an empath to do if they only have 2 attacks, have no need to use the aoe heal (except maybe on themselves) and thusly no need to use the ST Heal.

Sure rock those Regen/EndRec powers, but that still doesn't mean the team needed them.

So, can +DMG the one person for even more damage...and then attack...with just two attacks. o.O


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I don't know. When teamed with 7 IOed out, defense and damage machines. What's an empath to do if they only have 2 attacks, have no need to use the aoe heal (except maybe on themselves) and thusly no need to use the ST Heal.

Sure rock those Regen/EndRec powers, but that still doesn't mean the team needed them.

So, can +DMG the one person for even more damage...and then attack...with just two attacks. o.O
I think it's fair to say that no character(player is another issue) is truly needed anymore with all the incarnate powers and IO's.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrGemini View Post
....Now, if you want to argue that perhaps Empathy should be updated in the wake of all the "shields" that were converted to AoE instead of single target, then that is something I might agree with. But, to say that Empathy is useless is just plain ignorant of the facts staring you in the face.
I agree with this, but have to add that Empathy is Useless... When you are trying to solo with it. Just about every other primary solo's better, with the possible exceptions of TA and Sonic.

You CAN solo with Empathy, but choose something else if you plan on doing it often.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
I agree with this, but have to add that Empathy is Useless... When you are trying to solo with it. Just about every other primary solo's better, with the possible exceptions of TA and Sonic.

You CAN solo with Empathy, but choose something else if you plan on doing it often.
Useless is taking it too far I'd say. RA's are pretty nice for soloing, and you have a self heal handy.


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Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
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Posted

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Originally Posted by Auroxis View Post
Useless is taking it too far I'd say. RA's are pretty nice for soloing, and you have a self heal handy.
Hehe.

Admitedly I have done some pretty cool stuff solo with my IOed Empath.
But what makes me see red in these kinds of threads is that I know how well Empathy performs both solo and while teamed. I can buy the thought that a great team set is less powerful solo. But then to see that Empathy is clearly NOT considered the best Team set by the majority of the playerbase and then to also be the worst(or nearly) at soloing, you can see why I keep asking for solo Improvements to Empathy.

SEVEN years have passed ! The game has evolved. The devs need to re-visit this Powerset! Please.
I will not offer sexual favors for this, but I am not beneath Bribery !


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
I agree with this, but have to add that Empathy is Useless... When you are trying to solo with it. Just about every other primary solo's better, with the possible exceptions of TA and Sonic.

You CAN solo with Empathy, but choose something else if you plan on doing it often.
It's amazing the difference that two players can have with the same AT/powersets. He is not the fastest thing in the world, but my EMP/ele/ele can and does take out pretty much anything short of an AV(fargen AV regen). With some IO set recharge, a bit of self buffs(not insps), a dash of self healing, and some well timed end drain PBAOE's I feel safe as can be teleporting into almost any group*.

Useless is definataly not a word I would use with him.



*there are exceptions to every rule.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I don't know. When teamed with 7 IOed out, defense and damage machines. What's an empath to do if they only have 2 attacks, have no need to use the aoe heal (except maybe on themselves) and thusly no need to use the ST Heal.

Sure rock those Regen/EndRec powers, but that still doesn't mean the team needed them.

So, can +DMG the one person for even more damage...and then attack...with just two attacks. o.O
Anyone who plays an Empathy by doing nothing but healing and buffing is playing that powerset completely wrong IMO and I don't want to play with them. The "Pure" empathy concept is ridiculous and should only ever be applied in PvP, and that's old school PvP teaming. Nowadays you could probably squeeze attacks into your toon just for zone.

Any empathy who doesn't take their attacks is not only hurting themselves but the team as well.


"PvP Messiah"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
I agree with this, but have to add that Empathy is Useless... When you are trying to solo with it. Just about every other primary solo's better, with the possible exceptions of TA and Sonic.

You CAN solo with Empathy, but choose something else if you plan on doing it often.
I've soloed very well with both my Empathy Defender and my Ice/Emp controller. Do I take on things as difficult as my other characters might? No. But, I don't look to solo +4/x8 with every character. In fact, most of my characters I really don't have to solo with at all due to a great group of people I run with.


@ Dr Gemini

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Posted

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Originally Posted by DrGemini View Post
I've soloed very well with both my Empathy Defender and my Ice/Emp controller. Do I take on things as difficult as my other characters might? No. But, I don't look to solo +4/x8 with every character. In fact, most of my characters I really don't have to solo with at all due to a great group of people I run with.
I guess it is just a matter of perspective.

I have spent between 1 and 2 billion on my IO'd Emp/Elec and was only able to solo with success (meaning no deaths each mission) at +0/x3 No Bosses prior to Incarnates.
With Uncommon Incarnates in every slot I can now do +0/x3 with Bosses if I am careful, but +0/x4 no bosses is still guaranteed death at least once per mission.

By Contrast my WP/Fire Tank could easily do +0/x5 with Bosses with NO IO SETS.

I get that Defenders are a team oriented AT, but so are Tanks. I get that two ATs compared on SOs should perform differently as well. But comparing a Non-IOed character to a very mature and fully IO'd character should not be this way. Or else, WHY spend the time and money to trick out a toon. My team performance was not improved by spending all that coin. Should I NOT build a character to perform well on teams AND solo ?

In the end, it is not my game. But Empathy Sucks ! You can get Team oriented characters that are nearly as usefull (if not just as usefull with IOs) and STILL SOLO with the best of them.

FYI. +4/x8 has never been my goal. Would be nice to do something like +0/x5 with Bosses though. Would make me feel like I had invested all that Influence for some reason.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
I guess it is just a matter of perspective.

I have spent between 1 and 2 billion on my IO'd Emp/Elec and was only able to solo with success (meaning no deaths each mission) at +0/x3 No Bosses prior to Incarnates.
With Uncommon Incarnates in every slot I can now do +0/x3 with Bosses if I am careful, but +0/x4 no bosses is still guaranteed death at least once per mission.

By Contrast my WP/Fire Tank could easily do +0/x5 with Bosses with NO IO SETS.

I get that Defenders are a team oriented AT, but so are Tanks. I get that two ATs compared on SOs should perform differently as well. But comparing a Non-IOed character to a very mature and fully IO'd character should not be this way. Or else, WHY spend the time and money to trick out a toon. My team performance was not improved by spending all that coin. Should I NOT build a character to perform well on teams AND solo ?

In the end, it is not my game. But Empathy Sucks ! You can get Team oriented characters that are nearly as usefull (if not just as usefull with IOs) and STILL SOLO with the best of them.

FYI. +4/x8 has never been my goal. Would be nice to do something like +0/x5 with Bosses though. Would make me feel like I had invested all that Influence for some reason.
Really? I find with my Empath IOd the biggest problem solo is speed. Softcapped s/l defense, Regen Aura and Healing Aura keep me alive, Rec Aura means I have 0 endurance problems so its just killspeed slowing me down.

With Elec you can sap or hold bosses so that shouldn't be a big deal. What is it that you find is getting you killed? Are you using inspirations liberally? They drop like candy, eat 'em up son.


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Originally Posted by Silas View Post
Really? I find with my Empath IOd the biggest problem solo is speed. Softcapped s/l defense, Regen Aura and Healing Aura keep me alive, Rec Aura means I have 0 endurance problems so its just killspeed slowing me down.

With Elec you can sap or hold bosses so that shouldn't be a big deal. What is it that you find is getting you killed? Are you using inspirations liberally? They drop like candy, eat 'em up son.

Sapping is my main trick, I Superspeed (with Celerity) into a spawn and drop SC + Powersink. Fire off SC and Ball Lightning as quick as they recharge, Use Tesla repeatedly on dangerous targets.

Obviously different enemy groups have their unique problems (Sappers for Malta, Dark Ring Mistress for Carnies, etc...)

After working on this toon and trying Scorpion shield (2nd Build) and my team build, I am starting to suspect that the core issue is HPs. I can easily be pummelled to death even with Clarion up and Both RAs. This is Especially true on my Scorpion Shield build which has no resistance. I have found that my Team build which is around 20% defense, but has resistance to S/L/En performs better while solo. Either way that I go, it is like playing Regen; I am Good, I am Good, I am... dead! Wow that was quick.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Auroxis View Post
I think it's fair to say that no character(player is another issue) is truly needed anymore with all the incarnate powers and IO's.
I'd have to agree with this. No AT is useless, but none are absolutely necessary/crucial, either. It used to be that teams felt they just HAD to have a tank, empath, debuffer, [or insert any other] for just about anything, but that's not true (and actually wasn't even before incarnate).

As I've said, this empaths are useless meme is tired and has been (or could be) said about any AT in the game. Every AT adds something to a team, and whatever that something is can now easily (well, if you find grinding trials easy) be replaced by incarnate powers. This does not detract from the "usefulness" of all or any of the ATs, though it does make them all nonessential. I have zero problem with this.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Sapping is my main trick, I Superspeed (with Celerity) into a spawn and drop SC + Powersink. Fire off SC and Ball Lightning as quick as they recharge, Use Tesla repeatedly on dangerous targets.

Obviously different enemy groups have their unique problems (Sappers for Malta, Dark Ring Mistress for Carnies, etc...)

After working on this toon and trying Scorpion shield (2nd Build) and my team build, I am starting to suspect that the core issue is HPs. I can easily be pummelled to death even with Clarion up and Both RAs. This is Especially true on my Scorpion Shield build which has no resistance. I have found that my Team build which is around 20% defense, but has resistance to S/L/En performs better while solo. Either way that I go, it is like playing Regen; I am Good, I am Good, I am... dead! Wow that was quick.
Is your build with Scorpion Shield softcapped? Going from just the shield itself to softcapped makes a world of difference.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas View Post
Is your build with Scorpion Shield softcapped? Going from just the shield itself to softcapped makes a world of difference.
Certainly is. 50.4% S/L, 40.9% En, 20.9% everything esle

Again, the problem does not even show itself until I crank up the number of mobs.
At X1, X2 nothing touches me. At X3 I can have some close calls, but usually win out.

At X4, for whatever reason, the amount of damage and cascade failure possibilities makes a hospital trip almost a guarantee.

No worries though.
I am probably retiring the Empath until they decide on giving the set a new look.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by DrGemini View Post
There are no IOs or Incarnate abilities that can truly replace the Regeneration and Recovery values that Empathy has.
Since I got Cardiac on my Kat/sr, I have used 1 blue. It was more for clearing space as much as it was boosting my end bar. I could have simply used Conserve Power and gotten through the situation with ease. This considering I was herding Arachnos at the time and the Mu were doing end drain on me. I was soloing at x4 so after the herds it was more like x8. I would have to look up my regen numbers, but I don't even have all of the accolades that boost it yet. Even if my health bar got low, I have greens and Aid Self. I tend to find regen rather overrated really.

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Originally Posted by Garent View Post
You could say the same thing about any powerset.
There are things that power sets do offer that currently aren't available via IOs, or Incarnate abilities, see list of what Storm brings to the table as one mere example.

I just want to point out that I don't "hate" Empathy, think it's a bad set, or think it's not useful on some level. What I'm saying is, if you look at what the support sets offer at end game content levels, Empathy brings a rather low amount compared to other sets. If you think Empathy brings more to the table then say TA, then that's your opinion and I don't think you hate TA because of it unless you do. I think you would be wrong, but that's my opinion.


 

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Originally Posted by Cold_X View Post
Anyone who plays an Empathy by doing nothing but healing and buffing is playing that powerset completely wrong IMO and I don't want to play with them. The "Pure" empathy concept is ridiculous and should only ever be applied in PvP, and that's old school PvP teaming. Nowadays you could probably squeeze attacks into your toon just for zone.

Any empathy who doesn't take their attacks is not only hurting themselves but the team as well.
Yeah, I have a SG member who wants to make their "pure healer concept build" and asked for help with it.

I told them sure, I can help you withit, but I'll never team with you with it.

I mean really...Empathy, with Aid Other, and just the first blast? *sigh*


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Yeah, I have a SG member who wants to make their "pure healer concept build" and asked for help with it.

I told them sure, I can help you withit, but I'll never team with you with it.

I mean really...Empathy, with Aid Other, and just the first blast? *sigh*
Wow, empathy with the medicine pool? That IS gimp. Take a couple attacks - single target hold/stun can really lighten the load for a team.


Triumphant Defenders Forever
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Posted

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Originally Posted by Psylenz View Post
Wow, empathy with the medicine pool? That IS gimp. Take a couple attacks - single target hold/stun can really lighten the load for a team.

Oh I have seen worse... Just like BrandX described I ran across a defender in Talos one time actually advertise the "Ultimate" healer. He did in fact have every power available in the empathy set. I too see no need for all of them and only take the Aura and Heal Other .. I skip Absorb pain reasoning that any power that forces me to give up health points to aid the team has the potential to aid in my death.. and I can't heal or buff anything if I have faceplanted.

But taking absorb pain for a third heal was only the start for this guy. As mentioned he had taken the medicine pool for the extra heal and rez and I can't remember but possibly even stimulant. And then it just started to get strange.. He had recall friend, not completely unusal for a support toon I have many that add that as well, but then instead of taking a SINGLE attack other than his tier one this guy seemed to decide he would be the transport KING.. he had Teleport from the tp Pool, he also had hover and fly, I think hasten along with Super Speed and I can't recall if he still had options that alllowed him to get into the leaping pool or not. It was as if he was determined to make certain he had absolutely no way to assist a team but to heal and buff them.

I couldn't help but wonder if that was his intent why on earth instead of wasting picks on three different types of travel powers he didn't at the very least take the leadership pool and add addition methods to BUFF himself and his team. Now in his defense this was years ago back when enough players had only recently crossed from other HEAL heavy MMOs that the general team building phylosophy was "I mus haz H3alz, i mus haz Tank!" I assume that if that same player is still active long ago he discovered how lame his character was and either deleted it or did a serious Respec. Either that or he's that 50 (+X) level that also has rebirth, picked a set of Lore pets heavy on heal/buff not damage, has judgement but only slotted to tier 1 or maybe not at all, and did the same with interface since there is no benefit at all in debuffing stuff ..LOL Of course another possibility is he's developed into one of the many homeless NPCs we see wandering aimlessly in game.. anyone ever spot one of them muttering to himself over and over.. "I heal you.. I heal you.. PLEASE I heal for food"


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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy View Post
But taking absorb pain for a third heal was only the start for this guy. As mentioned he had taken the medicine pool for the extra heal and rez and I can't remember but possibly even stimulant. And then it just started to get strange.. He had recall friend, not completely unusal for a support toon I have many that add that as well, but then instead of taking a SINGLE attack other than his tier one this guy seemed to decide he would be the transport KING.. he had Teleport from the tp Pool, he also had hover and fly, I think hasten along with Super Speed and I can't recall if he still had options that alllowed him to get into the leaping pool or not. It was as if he was determined to make certain he had absolutely no way to assist a team but to heal and buff them.
It's the general problem with the "pure healer" type build. There aren't enough useful non-combat power pool powers to fill a build so sooner or later you have to take something useless to fill the build.

A character has 24 power choices:
9 Empathy
4 Leadership
Hasten
Recall Friend
Travel Power (needs to be SS or Teleport due to power pool limits)
Stealth and Grant Invisibility (stretching the definition of useful there)
Tier 1 Blast

Works out to 19 powers meaning you still need to spend 5 more. I guess you could take PBU, Temp Invulnerability and Force of Nature but that is REALLY stretching the definition of useful (PBU isn't that useful for an Empath since Fort has a longish recharge and you don't need resistance if you aren't taking damage)


 

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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post

There are things that power sets do offer that currently aren't available via IOs, or Incarnate abilities, see list of what Storm brings to the table as one mere example.

I just want to point out that I don't "hate" Empathy, think it's a bad set, or think it's not useful on some level. What I'm saying is, if you look at what the support sets offer at end game content levels, Empathy brings a rather low amount compared to other sets. If you think Empathy brings more to the table then say TA, then that's your opinion and I don't think you hate TA because of it unless you do. I think you would be wrong, but that's my opinion.
True, storm brings something unique to the table in terms of powers (as do empaths), but the results can be achieved by other means via regular power set choices, power pools, and/or epic power sets (as with empaths). Storm is great for kb, slows, and debuffs, but so are the other troll sets (and many blaster sets). Many AT's don't need that kind of mitigation or are equipped in some way with their own (as incarnates, we're all pretty self-sufficient . . . that's part of the fun of it). I've never seen anyone say, oh, wait, we can't possibly do this tf (trial, mission) without storm, but I have seen that said about tanks and empaths (and kins. And rads.). Even so, tanks, empaths, kins, and rads (and every other set) is not crucial to a team's success in any game content (with some notable exceptions where debuffs are critical, but even then, incarnate powers stack and provide that, too). They all add something to the team, but no AT adds something that cannot be attained by another power set, IOs, or incarnate. Even if I can't get snowstorm (say), I can use ice storm to similar affect and with similar results. Need something kb'd? No problem, almost every one of my toons has at least one (and usually two) kb powers. Need something slowed? Fine, I'm on it, shiver and ice storm, particularly shiver, do that superbly. Need an O2 boost? I got it, let me hit Rebirth. These are just examples, but my point is that there's nothing that storm brings to the table that I either can't do with my toons (or that I'd necessarily "need") or that can't be found on any random PUG.

That's not to say that I don't love storm (I do, and have several stormy toons), but it's absurd to say (or imply) that they bring something to the table that can't be attained by any other means. Ditto every AT. That's why this "empaths are totally useless" meme is so tired. Every AT, at the end of the day, is "useless" (if by "useless" we mean that teams can excel without them, and that does seem to be the definition we're using). Personally, I'm glad to see more trial and tf leaders saying things like "bring what you want" or "bring what you enjoy" when asked what is needed. That's usually the "right" answer as far as I'm concerned.


 

Posted

Since we have shared some war stories, in answer to the thread topic:

Yes, an empathy defender's secondary matters in that yes, you have a secondary, you should contribute without hurting the empath's primary function to buff the team to maximum effectiveness.

Does it matter which secondary? I don't think it matters terribly which, but I myself might stay away from archery. Having just typed that - Rain of arrows from an empath as a non-crash nuke would be gravy on any balanced team attack. I have posted previously: I like having single target stuns and holds available to defenders to help controllers and dominators take out nasty targets like sappers, sky raider engineers, vahzilok embalmed cadavers, etc.

Thirdly, this breakdown should apply to ALL defenders. For my defenders, I plan builds not so much as to whether I take leadership as to whether I take vengeance because the defender modifiers are so compelling to take as much leadership as is possible within the most effective functions of your defender.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Tahliah View Post
I'd have to agree with this. No AT is useless, but none are absolutely necessary/crucial, either. It used to be that teams felt they just HAD to have a tank, empath, debuffer, [or insert any other] for just about anything, but that's not true (and actually wasn't even before incarnate).

As I've said, this empaths are useless meme is tired and has been (or could be) said about any AT in the game. Every AT adds something to a team, and whatever that something is can now easily (well, if you find grinding trials easy) be replaced by incarnate powers. This does not detract from the "usefulness" of all or any of the ATs, though it does make them all nonessential. I have zero problem with this.
No combination of incarnate or IO bonuses can replace a large -regen or -res. None can replace -dam. No combination of incarnate powers can replace fulcrum shift.

I know it's fun to pretend that everyone is affected the same, but the simple truth is some sets are hit much harder by incarnate powers. It does no one any good to pretend that isn't true.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
No combination of incarnate or IO bonuses can replace a large -regen
Longbow Cataphract.

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or -res
Reactive, Achilles' Heel, Fury of the Gladiator, and I personally expect -res incarnate powers soon but that's pure guesswork. Besides, -res isn't really that rare nowadays, with a single Tanker giving a heavy purple patch ignoring resistance debuff in bruising.

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None can replace -dam
Paralytic, Void Judgement.

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No combination of incarnate powers can replace fulcrum shift.
If you mean stacking buffs from multiple Destiny's, then yeah there aren't any which give a damage bonus. But extra damage isn't that necessary once you have competent players with Judgement, Reactive, and Lore pets.

Quote:
I know it's fun to pretend that everyone is affected the same, but the simple truth is some sets are hit much harder by incarnate powers. It does no one any good to pretend that isn't true.
I won't argue otherwise because it's hard to determine balance with all the incarnate powers, but the differences aren't even close to as dramatic as you describe.


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Posted

I have always said, if you don't want to blast as an empath, then roll a controller. A handful of blasts that rarely, if ever get used are far less useful than a handful of good controls.

I've been playing empathy since headstart, and in the early levels my blasts were more plentiful and probably better slotted than my primary. I wouldn't dream of playing an empath without blasting. For anyone wondering how they can balance blasting and primary usage, there's really a one word answer - practice. If you slot for recharge primarily both in your top tier buffs and for set bonuses once you get to IO sets, you should be able to spread out fort and AB to mitigate a lot of incoming damage, and with regen aura cycling regularly, you can cover the whole team. I don't allow myself to get mesmerized by hitting one attack after another so that I get a cued attack up that can lock me in animations, I make sure that I can turn and react. Psi blast has some really quick animations in the later powers, so it's pretty easy to turn and pop a heal if someone gets low. It does take some work to get used to the constant whack-a-mole, but with some effort you can learn to start whacking enemies in between the buffing and the healing on all but the most overmatched teams.


 

Posted

Empathy provides all the healing you really need, the first aid power pool just adds crappy heals that are far inferior to the heals you already have as an empath.

The fact is, you get 24 powers from level 1 to 50, and empathy only has 9 powers, which means you have 15 other power choices to pick from. You're not going to get any better heals with power pools, the the only good buffs from the pools are from leadership, which accounts for 3 power choices. Assuming you take 2 from a travel pool, you still have 10 powers left(well 9 minus the required power from your secondary).

So in short, empathy already has enough healing to keep a good team up and running, and you have more power choices than there are good support abilities in the power pools, luckily you have a secondary power set that has some very good powers, so you might as well invest in it.

And you know what, dealing damage helps your team, the faster foes die, the less hp your team looses, and defenders do pretty good damage. Right when you picked the archtype it was pretty clear that the class was support and ranged combat, so if you don't blast, you're only playing half the character.

If you don't want to do direct damage, go roll a Mastermind or a Troller.

((TLR would you play a scrapper without taking defensive abilities? They why would you play a defender without blasts))