Does your secondary REALLY matter as an Empath?
Even with only two attacks from his ice secondary, I seriously doubt he has trouble taking out a couple of minions.
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I disagree. At the end of the day what matters is having fun - for you and for your team. But that's the wonderful thing about MMOs...neither of us has to team with someone who holds the opposite viewpoint, if we don't want to do so. |
You throw some pretty broad assumptions around to justify your opinion, and you use 'should be' as if it is a law. Perhaps when you add an empath to *your* team, you expect that, but I've never had a team tell me anything remotely like that. I've also never had a team tell me they didn't like my performance as an empath (or as a defender). |
You also assume a lot when you say 'most defenders', unless you meant to type 'and I think most Defenders should take Assault anyways'. My defenders take Assault if they aren't going to be doing a lot of blasting, and if they can afford the toggle/slot. Otherwise, they don't because I used the pick for something else that I thought was more useful. Like damage mitigation from Air Superiority, say. Or Recall Friend so I can help ninja missions or recover bodies. |
There are things you can be doing (other than blasting out damage) that are helpful to the team - but only if you don't subscribe to the point of view that 'only damage matters'. /shrug |
1. Damage
2. Enough protection to deal that damage before they die
The thing is number 2 has a practical limit. Once you reach a certain point adding more mitigation doesn't really accomplish much. Conversely adding damage means your team is killing stuff faster which in turn means they need less mitigation.
The only pool power that provides a -pure- damage boost is Assault. Tactics increases the team's accuracy, which means some of those attacks that missed (without Tactics) now hit...that's a net increase in damage for the team, possibly *much* more of an increase than Assault's modifier to base damage. The larger the team, and the more powerful the attacks being used, the larger the benefit Assault and Tactics bring to the team's damage output. |
I'll also add it's perfectly feasible to build a Defender who has Leadership and attacks. My Traps/AR Defender runs all three leadership toggles and has seven AR attacks.
That's a pretty strange definition. So if my team is constantly pushing the envelope and I am busy all the time healing, buffing, and debuffing...I'm gimped? Because I did that instead of blasting? By your logic, then, my team mates who are *blasting* and not healing or buffing are making *me* work harder to compensate for them, too. I mean, if I didn't have to heal and buff them all the time (like the OP said he was doing) then why, I could be blasting! And I could dump those useless Assault/Tactics toggles and buy more attacks! I could stop playing a Defender (with a buffing/healing primary) and play a Blaster! |
I'd like to take a moment to respond to the sentiment that Empathy is less useful in the end game.
That sentiment is a huge fallacy.
1. No other set can provide the quantity and quality of reliable "green" numbers when you need them. Sure, preventing the damage in the first place is a good way to go. But, throughout the game, Empathy is a power set that provides consistency in terms of carrying the team through some tough fights. And, I can tell you from personal experience there is a lot of satisfaction that comes from knowing that you were able to keep key members on their feet (notice how the devs are working in more things that seem to ignore resist/def buffs?).
2. No other set can provide the quality of Regeneration and Recovery buffs that Empathy does. Yes, other power sets can provide some of either. But, Regeneration and Recovery Aura can be "up" enough to provide a significant boost to everyone (including yourself). Not even the new Destiny buffs can provide a boost that consistent (they diminish over the life of the buff while Regen/Recovery Auras do not).
3. Though they are single-target buffs, Fortitude, Clear Mind, and Adrenaline Boost are a trio of buffs that every character loves to receive. I currently have Fortitude able to be consistently kept on 4 teammates. That's 4 people doing more damage and taking less thanks to you. Fortitude provides 3 buffs that any damage class loves. Clear Mind offers stackable protection from every "status effect" in the game. And, Adrenaline Boost is definitely a buff loved by whoever you can keep it on. Personally, I will throw "AB" on the tank and then be free to ignore him while he has some pretty impressive regen, recovery, and recharge.
4. Empathy is a great power set to have as a team anchor. A lot of times, Empathy defenders are able to carry and slot the full set of Leadership. Thus, again, your presence is providing a boost to the team. The individual buffs may not be that much but they do help.
5. I would argue that on a team, while you should definitely "blast" when you can, treating your teammates as "pets" allows you to actually be the one doing the most damage by improving your team's efficiency.
Eh, maybe that response was a bit overdone but I get so tired of hearing people rag on Empathy. Is Empathy the best? That's up to individuals to decide. But, I highly doubt that you will find many people who will turn away a good Empath from their team.
@ Dr Gemini
�If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
I'd like to take a moment to respond to the sentiment that Empathy is less useful in the end game.
That sentiment is a huge fallacy. |
1. No other set can provide the quantity and quality of reliable "green" numbers when you need them. Sure, preventing the damage in the first place is a good way to go. But, throughout the game, Empathy is a power set that provides consistency in terms of carrying the team through some tough fights. And, I can tell you from personal experience there is a lot of satisfaction that comes from knowing that you were able to keep key members on their feet (notice how the devs are working in more things that seem to ignore resist/def buffs?). |
The place Empathy shines over other sets is when only a single character is taking damage, a situation which rarely occurs on the trials.
2. No other set can provide the quality of Regeneration and Recovery buffs that Empathy does. Yes, other power sets can provide some of either. But, Regeneration and Recovery Aura can be "up" enough to provide a significant boost to everyone (including yourself). Not even the new Destiny buffs can provide a boost that consistent (they diminish over the life of the buff while Regen/Recovery Auras do not). |
3. Though they are single-target buffs, Fortitude, Clear Mind, and Adrenaline Boost are a trio of buffs that every character loves to receive. I currently have Fortitude able to be consistently kept on 4 teammates. That's 4 people doing more damage and taking less thanks to you. Fortitude provides 3 buffs that any damage class loves. Clear Mind offers stackable protection from every "status effect" in the game. And, Adrenaline Boost is definitely a buff loved by whoever you can keep it on. Personally, I will throw "AB" on the tank and then be free to ignore him while he has some pretty impressive regen, recovery, and recharge. |
4. Empathy is a great power set to have as a team anchor. A lot of times, Empathy defenders are able to carry and slot the full set of Leadership. Thus, again, your presence is providing a boost to the team. The individual buffs may not be that much but they do help. |
Eh, maybe that response was a bit overdone but I get so tired of hearing people rag on Empathy. Is Empathy the best? That's up to individuals to decide. But, I highly doubt that you will find many people who will turn away a good Empath from their team. |
I did go through a respec and I now have 4 ice attacks. I'll give those a shot later tonight when larger teams will be easier to come by.
That said, I'm a bit confused. Some of you have said that by not blasting, I'm hurting my team, but I would counter with the fact that I'm spending a lot of my time healing anyhow. If I wait until people are really low, it might be too late for some of them, or I get caught in an animation while they die. Hearing that empathy is the 2nd most useless set end game, is kinda discouraging. Why put all this time into a toon that doesn't serve much of a purpose team wise later? Wondering if my time would be better spend working on my Thermal cor instead, or maybe going Pain Dom. |
I don't worry about damage though, I just use my attacks for whatever debuff they have.
I'd like to take a moment to respond to the sentiment that Empathy is less useful in the end game.
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Because people can't get past the fact that a team needs a healer. FYI, I've never turned away an Emp. unless I knew beforehand that they were a pure healer. Even if I consider FF worse off then Empathy, I have yet to turn one away. If I need bodies for a team, and you are willing to team, then let's roll.
To the OP:
Much of the current mindset running rampant is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (or healing), meaning that sets that prevent or reduce incoming damage on the front end are more valuable than primarily reactive sets such as empathy.
That said, there has been a small resurgence of "Yay, I'm useful again" from Empaths due to the Keyes Incarnate Trial, in which healing is definitely of benefit in the current way most leaders run it.
Heal and blast and have fun.
Empathy is not special.
If you've planned your build around the notion that Empathy is just this super special primary that's so super special that you can't possibly do anything else, well, the sooner you get out of that mindset, the better.
You are probably going to attract a bunch of posters who are going to tell you about the damage potential of your empath and that you are ignoring large part of your character by not taking more attacks.
I say, do what you enjoy. If you like healing and buffing and not so much attacking then whatever your secondary you choose is good enough. However, if you wanted a secondary to compliment your primary (heals/buff) I would go with a secondary with some good debuff potential to help your team. Ice has good slows but I would have went with dark (great -hit debuff) or rad (-def). I have also seen some /Sonic Empaths with primarily heal/buff builds that help alot. Good luck with your toon and have fun! |
Don't dismiss you secondary... Note I didn't say YOUR CRAZY if you don't take all your attacks. but look at the added benefits (over and above the ability to do damage) you bring to your own character and your teams...
RAD.. Aside from AIM every single attack causes -DEF to any foe you face. You essetially become a buffer/debuffer when coupled with EMP
Dark ,, 8 or 9 powers cause - to Hit in additon to to 1 that immobs, 1 that disorients, 1 heals you and one that helps recover end (for you) Once again you added a form of debuff and a way to help yourself stay alive even longer,
Electric.. aside from Aim all attacks cause - recovery to your foes and some even transfer some of that lost end to you allowing you to stay active longer.
Ice .. which you have all but one have a -speed debuff attached so the more you attack the slower you enemies become. ost also have -Recharge so they attack less often and of course you have 2 holds and a couple that also have - to Hit. what is NOT to like
Dual Pistols.. Probably one of the most versitle powers in game, By swapping ammo you can go from having every attack slow your enemies -speed (CRYO rounds) to every attack adding a -Damage debuff (CHEM rounds).
Psychic .. 4 attacks add -recharge and you have 1 sleep and 1 disorient to keep enemies dazed and confused (no not actually confused.. different power set lol)
Sonis.. 7 of 8 attacks add a -Dam Resist debuff and once again you gain a power that puts yoiur enemies to sleep so they can be picked off one at a time.
Really of all the secondaries available, at this time, only Assault rifle and Archery are mainly damaging attack and Energy doesn't debuff either but almost all attacks have KB.
keep in mind as you get higher in level healing will become less and less necessary as many characters develope stronger defenses .. your buffs are still great but if you totally ignore all the GOOD secondary powers out there you are not helping the team as much as you could. Besides you have to have something to do while you wait for Fortitude and lear mind to recharge may as well help do some damage and debuff at the same time
There now did I even once demand that he had to take powers and slot them or he was a disgrace to defenders everywhere .. NOPE lol
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Your choice of secondary is not critical, some are better than others but the only one I'd really advise against on an Empath is Dual Pistols (Empaths tend to spend a lot of time alternating between attacking and Empathy and DP has a very long redraw time).
As others have noted Ice Blast is generally rated as one of the top Blast sets for Defenders in part because Ice Storm is a pseudo-pet that was never re-scaled for Defenders so it does Blaster level damage. Additionally Ice Blast provides good control (two holds and several AoE slows) and has a nuke that, as with Ice Storm, deals Blaster level damage. So no, you aren't gimping yourself with Ice unless you don't take the attacks. |
Personally, there will be differences between the secondary choices for an empath if you ever spend time soloing. Ice is one of the better choices for this type of player.
If you mostly team, then AoE and Control powers have some extra value, because you can throw them out between buff cycles. I am a big believer in using your primary to its fullest AND throwing out some attacks as much as you can while teamed, and Ice has some nice attacks.
With that being said, my Empath has 8 of 9 primary powers and 5 of 9 secondary picks. I would say that your group role forces you to pick and choose the best powers from your secondary, but don't EVER ignore your secondary.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
While the others are correct that you can get some damage out of an ice secondary on a defender (more solo and on small teams), there is another option. You could slot for slows (the powers slow attack speed as well as movement), holds, and tohit debuffs and use the secondary very usefully as support to complement your primary.
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Empathy offers, regen, end recovery, def, and mezz protection. All of these are handled via IOs and Incarnate. This does not mean everybody runs around fully IOed and Incarnated. It's just when those things do come into play it knocks against what a Emp adds to a team. Take Storm because it's what I thought of first. It's got -fly in Snow Storm. It's got end drain protection and a heal in O2 Boost. It brings the ability to reposition mobs. It's brings more damage. It's got controls. It's got -res. The fact people can get -res via Reactive doesn't hurt Storm because the -res cap is so high and Reactive is limited. Whatever level Storm performs at before IOs and end game content, it still performs at that level. This can be said for a number of sets, or even if they do lose some effectiveness, they still have enough to stand out. Nothing about Empathy in end game content stands out. It's not like heals are unique to Empathy.
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Also, your post clearly says to me that you did not understand the points that I was making. Namely, Empathy still has a certain "consistency" about it when you look at the whole package that makes it valuable throughout the game. A good Empathy defender still makes a significant impact to a team in ways that other sets don't (and those sets provide benefits that Empathy doesn't).
Run with a group of all Empathy Defenders and tell me I am wrong...
@ Dr Gemini
�If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
Over X amount of levels you can only take X amount of powers. You decide on what powers you don't like to be caught out with. Some times the lack of fort in a team doesnt help, sometimes its the lack of CM. You decide. Often when it comes to attack chains they're never quite achieve-able as there is always someone to heal or what not when leveling. Being lost in your attack chain when some other buff could be placed or someone else with more damage could of been saved is as bad as having a tunnel visioned minion orientated tanker in the team when most mobs are on everybody else.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Dark ,, 8 or 9 powers cause - to Hit in additon to to 1 that immobs, 1 that disorients, 1 heals you and one that helps recover end (for you)
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The only power in Dark Blast that does anything to endurance is the ever useless Blackstar, and that flatlines YOUR endurance and kills your recovery too.
I'd LOVE it if there was a +end power in Dark Blast, personally, but alas.
Getting On Topic, I've got two Defenders, a Dark/Dark/Dark and a Kinetics/Ice/Power. I play them both as 'Offenders' in that I use my Primary and Secondary both, although Kinetics/Ice does debuff my intelligence, as Fulcrum-Ice Storm-Blizzard is just too tempting, and I tend to forget that if I'm not careful I'll get to Fulcrum-faceplant instead...
Defender secondaries have very useful side effects. and having a functional attack chain means if you're not in the mood to team, or if you can't find one, then you can wander off and solo for a little while.
Play your toon how you want, but fon't overlook the usefulness of the blasts and their non-damage effects.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
Like running OPed all defender teams is unique to Empathy.
What does Empathy bring to the table that's unique for end game content that can't be gotten elsewhere via IOs and Incarnate abilities? |
Nitpicking aside, I'll repeat what I've said before: In an unrealistic scenario where every character has all the incarnate powers and over 10 billion inf invested into their perfect builds, your buffs won't matter as much. However, your debuffs, damage, and your contribution in general won't matter as much either.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
"PvP Messiah"
Like running OPed all defender teams is unique to Empathy.
What does Empathy bring to the table that's unique for end game content that can't be gotten elsewhere via IOs and Incarnate abilities? |
There are no IOs or Incarnate abilities that can truly replace the Regeneration and Recovery values that Empathy has.
But your responses suggest that you probably don't care what anyone says you just don't like Empathy. You are one of those who have somehow bought into the notion that Empathy is useless and have no clue how wrong you are about it.
@ Dr Gemini
�If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
Did you bother to read anything anyone has said? Have you bothered to read numbers?
There are no IOs or Incarnate abilities that can truly replace the Regeneration and Recovery values that Empathy has. |
And the same problem with downtime holds for the regen as well. Regen aura is like a tier 9 godmode power. It's good until it runs out and then it's worthless. And its duration is short enough that it's not going to last through any fight where it's actually needed.
The further you get in the game with larger groups of enemies and bigger "bags of HP" enemies, the less useful Emp is.
Did you bother to read anything anyone has said? Have you bothered to read numbers?
There are no IOs or Incarnate abilities that can truly replace the Regeneration and Recovery values that Empathy has. |
Yes, Empathy has nice buffs that aren't completely replaced by anything else but the same is true of every support power set, Empathy isn't anything special. It's also worth considering the value of the things it does offer compared to other powersets. You mention Regen and Recovery but how useful are those really? At high levels most people build their characters to be self-sufficient in terms of Endurance management and as such in the few situations where they need extra help (due to enemy debuffs) a lesser recovery power (such as from Kinetics or Radiation) is often sufficient, it's rare for a high level character to truly need the level of recovery provided by Empathy. The extra regeneration is more generically useful but even there outside of a Hamidon Raid it is simply one method amongst many of keeping green bars topped up. The benefits Empathy provides, while nice, are not irreplaceable.
Don't get me wrong, I like Empathy, I think it's a solid support set, I just get annoyed by people who try to elevate it on a pedestal above other support sets (I also dislike the opposite, people who dismiss it as useless).
Sorry, there's no +end power in Dark Blast. You may be thinking of Dark Consumption in Dark Mastery.
The only power in Dark Blast that does anything to endurance is the ever useless Blackstar, and that flatlines YOUR endurance and kills your recovery too. I'd LOVE it if there was a +end power in Dark Blast, personally, but alas. Getting On Topic, I've got two Defenders, a Dark/Dark/Dark and a Kinetics/Ice/Power. I play them both as 'Offenders' in that I use my Primary and Secondary both, although Kinetics/Ice does debuff my intelligence, as Fulcrum-Ice Storm-Blizzard is just too tempting, and I tend to forget that if I'm not careful I'll get to Fulcrum-faceplant instead... Defender secondaries have very useful side effects. and having a functional attack chain means if you're not in the mood to team, or if you can't find one, then you can wander off and solo for a little while. Play your toon how you want, but fon't overlook the usefulness of the blasts and their non-damage effects. |
Opps thanks for the catch.. Don't know why i said that.. I was researching on Wiki as I wrote for accuracy and somehow managed to be totally inaccurate.
As mentioned though quite a few of a defenders secondaries have added effects that make skipping them seem at least a bit silly. if you WANT to support you team.. support it every way possible... grabbing attacks that add damage and debuff the mobs the face just makes sense.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
There are no IOs or Incarnate abilities that can truly replace the Regeneration and Recovery values that Empathy has. |
Empathy would be a poor set if high regen + recovery would be all that it offers. Thankfully, it also heals, which is more and more important with the plethora of autohit unresistable damage around, stacks mez protection, give a significant defense and tohit buff to a few people and an enormous recharge boost to one character.
Ageless? Rebirth? Hello! Someone is stuck in I19, it seems.
Empathy would be a poor set if high regen + recovery would be all that it offers. Thankfully, it also heals, which is more and more important with the plethora of autohit unresistable damage around, stacks mez protection, give a significant defense and tohit buff to a few people and an enormous recharge boost to one character. |
There are 0 IO sets or Incarnate abilities that can truly replace the things any normal buff/debuff set can provide. Yes, incarnate abilities and IO stuff are extremely helpful. But, anyone who thinks they can truly replace the classic buffs or debuffs of the game is rather ignorant.
Now, that is not to say that you need a certain mix of powers to win. This game is great at letting people play what they want to play and still have a great chance at success.
Now, if you want to argue that perhaps Empathy should be updated in the wake of all the "shields" that were converted to AoE instead of single target, then that is something I might agree with. But, to say that Empathy is useless is just plain ignorant of the facts staring you in the face.
@ Dr Gemini
�If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
If I know what I know now when I made my Emp Defender, who was my 2nd played character, I would choose to go with Ice blasts. This is due to Ice having 2 holds which means soloing bosses or any mezzing enemy would have been trivial.
Instead I had taken Energy blasts back then and that was due to me only having an Energy blaster as my first played character so I was somewhat familiar with the set. It was fine when I was teaming, but not so good for soloing. The epiphany that Energy blast just wasn't good enough came to me one day as I was staring at a trio of Rikti, one of which was a Mentalist or Mezmerist boss. They were the first spawn group in the mission. I stared at them for several minutes and I could not come up with an attack plan that wouldn't require me to use a lot of my inspirations. All that for just the first group, so what was I going to do for the rest of the mission? Exit to buy more after every couple of groups? It took a year and a half to learn new tactics along with 3 respecs (SO builds only back then) to get to a point where I was confident that I could solo almost any regular enemy type.
While I am a better player now because of all this, Ice's 2 holds would have made things so much easier!
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.