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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Slow yes
3 of its powers are slower versions of scrapper powers from other sets Burst - does in 2.67 seconds what Dragon's Tail does in 1.5 Repulsing Torrent - is almost like shockwave except it does a lot less damage and takes twice as long to do it. Focused Burst - is a 2 second version of Focus: 18% more damage for 70% more animation time. Its Tier 9 is also very slow at 2.83 seconds hurting its DPA, Golden Dragonfly it is not. Even its fast powers are basically the same stats as powers people around here normally recommend you skip due to low DPA. Quick Strike is the same as Thunder Kick or Shadow Punch Body Blow is an 8% faster Sting of the Wasp Leaving one power Smashing Blow which is decent DPA - until you compare it to the DPA of Storm Kick or Smite. If you ignore the awesome secondary effect and the great +dmg power of power siphon - KM is slow and does low DPA relative to other sets like Katana or even Martial Arts |
Don't cherry pick powers. Compare Burst to all of the Scrapper PBAoE's. Not just your Martial Arts fetish.
Comparing Repulsing Torrent to Shockwave isn't a fair comparison. The powers have two different purposes.
Focused Burst and Focus have different utility, if I recall, but noted.
All that aside? KM also has mixed damage going for it, so we can't ignore that.
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Shockwave has better DPA, half the cast time and better (100%) KB.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Comparing Repulsing Torrent to Shockwave isn't a fair comparison. The powers have two different purposes.
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Repulsing Torrent is so much worse, its not even remotely close.
I'm curious to what you think the special purpose of RT is though, slightly longer range (40 vs. 30) and even higher levels of KB?
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Fetish? where does that come from? are you trying to be rude?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Don't cherry pick powers. Compare Burst to all of the Scrapper PBAoE's. Not just your Martial Arts fetish.
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Burst's secondary effect outside of the normal -dmg; is knockdown, it has the area of effect, recharge and damage of Dragon's Tail
If it weren't for the -dmg it would be the same, slower animating power.
Sure Ill compare it to the other scrapper PBOEs -- it is lower DPA than all of them. Spin at 2.5 seconds does a lot more damage with faster recharge. Lotus drops is much faster animating with a dot component. Even Whirling Sword is faster .. with a DOT. FSC more damage, better radius.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Shockwave has better DPA, half the cast time and better (100%) KB.
Repulsing Torrent is so much worse, its not even remotely close. I'm curious to what you think the special purpose of RT is though, slightly longer range (40 vs. 30) and even higher levels of KB? |
and the cone is half as wide -- pretty awesome
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Ahem, Shockwave is a tier 9. Also, Claws doesn't really get a high powered ST attack like Concentrated Strike. Also, Claws does only lethal damage. Also, outside of better endurance management and shorter recharge times, Claws doesn't have a secondary effect.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Shockwave has better DPA, half the cast time and better (100%) KB.
Repulsing Torrent is so much worse, its not even remotely close. I'm curious to what you think the special purpose of RT is though, slightly longer range (40 vs. 30) and even higher levels of KB? |
Vs Claws, what's Repulsing Torrent's purpose? Probably being a throw-away power, or doing 50dmg to 10 targets vs Eviscerate's 125dmg to 5 targets...which isn't too bad considering one comes at lvl 8 vs lvl 26.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Fetish? where does that come from? are you trying to be rude?
Burst's secondary effect outside of the normal -dmg; is knockdown, it has the area of effect, recharge and damage of Dragon's Tail If it weren't for the -dmg it would be the same, slower animating power. Sure Ill compare it to the other scrapper PBOEs -- it is lower DPA than all of them. Spin at 2.5 seconds does a lot more damage with faster recharge. Lotus drops is much faster animating with a dot component. Even Whirling Sword is faster .. with a DOT. FSC more damage, better radius. |
Comparing Kin to *one* set, yes, you'll find disadvantages but you'll also find advantages, like the stuns and energy damage. If you compare the set to every set at once, yes you can make the set look horrible but you also make yourself sound like an idiot.
But what I said was - it was slow
I explained why I thought it was slow
That's why its damage is poorer than it could be. If say it had animation times that were more competitive.
My point wasn't to say KM was bad nor did it have anything to do with mixed damage or it having a great +dmg power and excellent secondary effect. It was that it was slow animating.
Outside of when powersiphon is active it has some of the lowest DPAs of the scrapper sets. The reason I cherry picked powers is because those particular powers are all very close in overall Design, Damage, and Recharge. Remember we have been told that Tier is not part of the balancing calculations.
What if burst had a 2 second animation time? Focused burst 1.2? Repulsing Torrent 1 second? What if Concentrated Strike animated as fast as Knockout Blow? KM would be pretty awesome.
That is where I am coming from. I'm not comparing it to another set on a Set A > Set B basis.
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And to attemt to prove it by pen picking powers from individual sets is about as useful as proving it does less damage by the same pen picking method.|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
It was that it was slow animating.
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Hint: it's not very, at least IMO. Sets are balanced wholly, not power by power.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And to attemt to prove it by pen picking powers from individual sets is about as useful as proving it does less damage by the same pen picking method.
Hint: it's not very, at least IMO. Sets are balanced wholly, not power by power. |
and how is KM balanced? by having slower animating versions of competing powers?
Its a lot like claws if you want one set to compare it to, except claws is much faster.
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His point though is about the animation times on powers. To compare this kind of thing correctly, you have to find other powers of similar damage levels and recharge. You can't always do that just by picking one set. If your looking at a 3s recharge power, you have to pick other 3s recharge powers to compare it to. If your looking at a 5s recharge power, you have to find another 5s power to compare. That is why he seemed to be cherry picking. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And to attemt to prove it by pen picking powers from individual sets is about as useful as proving it does less damage by the same pen picking method.
Hint: it's not very, at least IMO. Sets are balanced wholly, not power by power. |
That doesn't change the fact that KM's attacks are somewhat slow compared to other comparable attacks. That was his point. I remember looking at KM when it was in beta, and it was like the devs had specifically chosen the worst arcanatime breakpoints they could. Pretty much every attack in the set was significantly impacted.
I thought the calculations put KM in the high when it came to DPS therefore it's animations being strongly misleading.
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Originally Posted by Stryph
I thought the calculations put KM in the high when it came to DPS therefore it's animations being strongly misleading.
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With Power Siphon perhaps?
its an awesome +dmg power.
How does KM look if it had Build Up instead?
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Why would it matter? It doesn't come with Build Up. It comes with Power Siphon.|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
With Power Siphon perhaps?
its an awesome +dmg power. How does KM look if it had Build Up instead? |
Does about 122 DPS on a Stalker sans Build Up, using the best DPS string. CS instantly recharges BU on a crit...so that will effect the DPS as you could be using BU more often.
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PS still has a hefty cast time, so even if you have it perma that's about a 10% DPS decrease due to cast time. Quite similar to Rage, except weaker.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Why would it matter? It doesn't come with Build Up. It comes with Power Siphon.
Does about 122 DPS on a Stalker sans Build Up, using the best DPS string. CS instantly recharges BU on a crit...so that will effect the DPS as you could be using BU more often. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Why would it matter? It doesn't come with Build Up. It comes with Power Siphon.
Does about 122 DPS on a Stalker sans Build Up, using the best DPS string. CS instantly recharges BU on a crit...so that will effect the DPS as you could be using BU more often. |
It only matters because I was trying ot make a point without worrying about +Dmg powers.
That's all.
Just Animation Time.
Almost all scrapper attack powers without a dmg secondary effect do the same damage based on recharge time
Or to put it another way what would Katana look like with a (no redraw)Power Siphon instead of Build Up?
Better or worse DPS than KM?
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it works better then Daul Blades Combo System, so I heard and Works for Brutes, Stalkers and tankers as well.
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Per the reports on CoH's SDCC booth, there is a new Melee set: STREET JUSTICE!
 From what I've read it has a combo system, but is different from the Dual Blades combos. I can't wait for this! And here I was happy as can be to be getting Battle Axe, War Mace, and Energy Aura!  Scrappers! Very soon we will be dispensing some sweet, sweeeeet Street Justice!   |
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Sounds more lenient anyways. If by missing an attack in DB, you lost your chain (much like Assassin's in GW) but SJ probably allows you to break mid chain and then get that link hooked up to deal the goods.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
it works better then Daul Blades Combo System, so I heard and Works for Brutes, Stalkers and tankers as well.
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SJ could just as easily have it so, if you miss an attack you have to start the chain over.|
Originally Posted by Stryph
Sounds more lenient anyways. If by missing an attack in DB, you lost your chain (much like Assassin's in GW) but SJ probably allows you to break mid chain and then get that link hooked up to deal the goods.
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DB allows you to use a non DB power and continue on with your combo, as long as the animation isn't to long...I think the window is 4 seconds.
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Right now I'm a bit worried that the DPS of SJ is going to be completely dependent on the big burst damage provided by the finisher- with most attacks will only doing approximately same damage as a rageless SS tanker, thus leading to a low overall DPS.
You should worry about me cutting your tail off, more.
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That's how it should be as far as fighting games are concerned. |
Originally Posted by Akantor
Right now I'm a bit worried that the DPS of SJ is going to be completely dependent on the big burst damage provided by the finisher- with most attacks will only doing approximately same damage as a rageless SS tanker, thus leading to a low overall DPS.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
SJ could just as easily have it so, if you miss an attack you have to start the chain over.
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I worry about that with every set |
Originally Posted by Akantor
Right now I'm a bit worried that the DPS of SJ is going to be completely dependent on the big burst damage provided by the finisher- with most attacks will only doing approximately same damage as a rageless SS tanker, thus leading to a low overall DPS.
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I'm hoping that if Street Justice has special effects like Martial Arts, that it will be possible to do NoEffects. I never did like those Martial Arts Sparkles. 
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Would you be able to elaborate?|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
it works better then Daul Blades Combo System, so I heard and Works for Brutes, Stalkers and tankers as well.
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I would really love it if this set didn't have yet another +damage boost that effectively makes the Brute version look pointless compared to the Scrapper version.
hmm, SJ also fits the concept I had recently made into a KM/FA Scrapper. He's a resistance member who participates in the Underground's fight clubs ( that's right, I broke the rule; cry about it) whose main fighting style is generally Jujitsu and of course he's a metahuman so his powers are pyrokenisis - often times sucking the oxygen ( life ) out of his opponent to make them light headed and clumsy; allowing him to sweep in for the victory. SJ may do quite well to portray that with all the foe debuffs that maybe possible.