The return of the people who don't know what a Defender is...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-17 15:54 in Defenders
You titled this thread wrong.
It should read "I ran into someone leading a trial who doesn't know the difference between an Empathy Defender and a Dark Defender", and you should have a screen shot of the guy being clueless, so nobody else is as unlucky as you were, and ends up on his team.
Teamsaver (Earth/Rad controller) and his trusty hench-boulder, Rocky
RezQ (Emp/Dark defender) member of Paragon City Search & Rescue
iTeam (Robotics/FF mastermind) with apologies to fans of "The A-Team"
Globally, I'm @Teamsaver, on the Infinity server
But i thought ALL defenders atleast park in the hospital and midnighter's club long enough to get the http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Alchemist_Badge so they can heal.
I mean really, isn't that all defenders are good for?
*i kid i kid*
If a Trick Archer says that their not a healer then I have to go with that logic, but for a Dark defender then I'd have to check as to whether or not they had Twilight Grasp. With Twilight Grasp they're as much a healer as an Empath. Now I don't think that Twilight Grasp is the best power and should need to be spammed but I still feel that there is a time and a place to use it.
Now when it comes to the trial on your Traps it sounds like ya found some tool for a league leader.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Certainly I do not understand the mechanics of Keyes Trial. I've done it once and even with all of the instructions (and misc jokesters who cant shut up) it was hard to follow what was to be done. Basically Do's and Dont's.|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
...
Of course he kicked me anyway for leeching because without attacking there's nothing else I can do. |
And yes I understand the plight of "non-Healorz" especially D/D as I have leveled a dark/dark defender to 50.
With that being said. None of your debuffs can be used in that part of the trial? You do not have Twilight Grasp? I know some people say "I am not a healer" in the sense of that they aren't Empath but still do have TG. You didn't specifically say if you had it or not. Just confirming.
I'm certainly not siding with anyone who kicks people that late in the trial for almost any reason. And in this case it sounds like the person was a fool.
You make it sound like you just stood there after he said to stop attacking. Was there anyway to do something in the form of debuffs or it didn't matter? Mr. Healorz wanted heals!
Quote:
The flaw with the typical moron's perception of Dark Miasma is that it's capable of specific, single-target heals. As any non-moron can tell you, it's not. And therein lies the rub with a LOT of Defender primaries. At least the morons know that Kinetics is "good for something" beyond "just healing the tank". And even Kinetics is better at this than Dark Miasma. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
If a Trick Archer says that their not a healer then I have to go with that logic, but for a Dark defender then I'd have to check as to whether or not they had Twilight Grasp. With Twilight Grasp they're as much a healer as an Empath. Now I don't think that Twilight Grasp is the best power and should need to be spammed but I still feel that there is a time and a place to use it.
|
Looking at the entire list of Defender primaries, and what they're capable of in a "healing" context:
- Cold Domination: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - no, Rez - no
- Dark Miasma: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - yes, Rez - yes (AoE)
- Empathy: ST Heal - yes (x2), AoE Heal - yes, Rez - yes
- Force Field: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - no, Rez - no
- Kinetics: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - yes, Rez - no
- Radiation Emission: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - yes, Rez - yes
- Sonic Resonance: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - no, Rez - no
- Storm Summoning: ST Heal - yes, AoE Heal - no, Rez - no
- Traps: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - yes (+regen), Rez - no
- Trick Arrow: ST Heal - no, AoE Heal - no, Rez - no
So yes, any dimbrick that sees the blue shield and automatically assumes "h3410rz!!!" is exactly that... a moron.
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
Once again I feel like invoking Dead Calm's Defender Manifesto:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...nder+Manifesto
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
Perhaps I should clarify something here. Usually when ever someone asks a dark "not to attack and just heal" that excludes the use of Twilight Grasp as it requires attacking an enemy in order to use it. This means while there is a heal power available I can't just stop attacking and heal as attacking is a requirement for a dark to be able to heal. No attacks = no heal.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
for a Dark defender then I'd have to check as to whether or not they had Twilight Grasp. With Twilight Grasp they're as much a healer as an Empath. Now I don't think that Twilight Grasp is the best power and should need to be spammed but I still feel that there is a time and a place to use it.
|
This is not the same for an Empathy Defender who can heal allies without ever attacking a single enemy.
It's a catch 22 so to speak. Your only heal power on a Dark requires an enemy to use it but your team orders you not to attack. You can't heal without attacking so they get mad at you for not healing. You try to start healing but then they just get mad at you for attacking again. And trying to explain this to anyone that doesn't understand how Twilight Grasp works in nearly impossible.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Super Flu
You make it sound like you just stood there after he said to stop attacking. Was there anyway to do something in the form of debuffs or it didn't matter? Mr. Healorz wanted heals!
|
I have another character who can't attack in the Keyes trial but only when Anti-Matter is around because he's almost entirely AoEs so I don't attack at all to avoid hitting him. But he's usually still able to go threw and grab temp powers or basically act as a buff pet so as not to be completely useless.
This guy just really left me with no choice but to do nothing, the only power I was even capable of using as a Buff was the Force Field Generator and even that was ordered to be dismissed. As if a non-combat pet was going to screw up the entire trial.
I hate to tell you this, but the people who lead trials seem to be some of the dumbest players I've ever encountered.
I had someone ask me if Rad was a debuffing set yesterday.
There was some Keyes trial forming on Freedumb where the requirement to join was "Must be 53 with t3 Rebirth, or a Healer". I swear people were smarter before I left.
Quote:
I've seen that same broadcast. And oddly enough for making such a requirement they don't even check to make sure people actually fit into it. I got invited to that trial when I didn't meet any of their requirements and oddly enough we had actually finished the trial without meeting their so called requirements, what a shocker. I'm sure I wasn't the only one. I did have a moment of "If you're requiring t3 rebirth or a healer what the heck am I doing here?" Plus only being level 50+1 if that. (The level 53 should actually say 50+3 because there are no level 53's it's just a level shift that makes you fight as if you were 53 not that you actually are level 53.)|
Originally Posted by Midnight_Tempest
There was some Keyes trial forming on Freedumb where the requirement to join was "Must be 53 with t3 Rebirth, or a Healer". I swear people were smarter before I left.
|
I guess with that trial they got tired of trying to find people to fit the requirements and just went "screw it we'll take anyone, grab that guy who's been broadcasting for the last 10 min." which would be me.
Quote:
Um.... no. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
If a Trick Archer says that their not a healer then I have to go with that logic, but for a Dark defender then I'd have to check as to whether or not they had Twilight Grasp. With Twilight Grasp they're as much a healer as an Empath.
|
Keyes is one of the few times I'll understand the "Just heal," thanks to the pulses. It, MS raids, etc. it's understandable to "rock the aura" on. Still annoying as hell, but understandable. And I still hate having my Emps referred to as "healers."
That said, a Dark still has to *hit* to "heal," and that's the only thing they have to "heal" WITH. An Empath, by comparison, has numerous means of hit point replacement (though I'd generally suggest to one NOT to use share pain, thanks to the whole "Now *I* can't heal" bit.) Heal for less, sure, but that's because short of dying just as the heal goes off, it's a guaranteed heal.
Besides, with all the good Dark/ does, it's ridiculous to tell someone not to do everything ELSE.
This is exactly the kind of build snobbery the dev who wrote the startlingly heal-centric Keyes intended. So bad trial leaders take only half the blame here.
Lolkeyes.
Nevermind, misread something.
Quote:
It is possible to have a good character for Keyes without being a healer.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
This is exactly the kind of build snobbery the dev who wrote the startlingly heal-centric Keyes intended. So bad trial leaders take only half the blame here.
Lolkeyes. |
You're not suppose to attack Anti-matter till the end because they more DMG he takes the stronger the pulses get. I think the trick is that if you're going to hit him, hit him with something that has 0 Damage.
There are a few good DeBuff powers that could still be used on Anti-matter without casing him to loose any health. He has a strong resistance to DeBuffs though so even if anyone was willing to try this it probably wouldn't have much of an effect if any at all.
Whatever the case it's always a shame whenever anyone underestimates a good DeBuffer. I'm always amazed with my own Defenders whenever they manage to solo what should be an overpowering enemy for a Defender because I have them slotted really well for DeBuff not really for DMG, it might take me forever to kill anything solo but I can do it when it's necessary. I'm especially amazed with my Traps/Dual Pistols Defender because I made him on a whim and think of him as being inferior to my Dark/Dark just because I freaking hate Traps. (Except during the escape in BAF trials then I freaking love Traps.) My Dual Pistols though are surprisingly well slotted for Slow DeBuffs. I've got him mainly slotted for Cryo Ammunition which works really really well. Every time I hit someone they get slowed so they can't attack as often which helps to keep me and anyone else alive longer. Though this is not good against Anti-matter because non of my DeBuffs will work without some DMG but like I said before, he wasn't even present at the time I was attacking and I don't see the big deal in shooting the War Works if it helps to slow them down.
I one star idiots like that raid leader and move on about my day. I much prefer playing with people who have a clue. I also don't team with anyone who calls an empathy defender a healer. Spamming heals can help on a Keyes, but I much prefer the RAs, AB, and Fort from the empath, then I don't need healing.
yeah that league lead just sounds like one of those uneducated poeple who basically refuse to learn the system
I haven't done Keyes, but I would think a kinetic would shine in a non-damage debuff project. Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift are great for reducing damage. Siphon Speed at one point was found to have an irresistible debuff against Giant Monsters; I don't know if they closed that opportunity yet.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
So the OP couldnt use Triage?...thats not in Traps?
i am thinking he never actualy did this trial.....
As he would have been whining more about the pulses destroying his stuff he summoned more then about some leader.
Though i could understand a leader getting mad if he just saw someone not doing anything or continualy pulling out acid mortars....right near Anti-Matter.
For those that dont know.....its not about damage or pulses doing more damage...its called any form of attack whether it be a debuff or even zero damage on antimatter....makes the pulses happen more often in that first portion.....
Its very annoying....there is no defense or resistance to pulses....only healing....no place to go to to escape them they always hit....and they do alot of damage.
Luckily they stop happening in the last portion of the trial...but up until you get those reactors knocked out....its a huge pain.
By the way......the Spawns and such in other places...not where antimatter is.......should have been the Ops priority location.......
SOoooooo if he was hanging out by anti-matter...well....there you go....that can easiy get people getting mad at you and thinking you are causing pulses.
Anywise that Trial is the most annoying thing....
*By the way...looks like people on this thread trigger off the dark/dark part.......Op said he played a traps/pistols....
Quote:
The healing triangle doesn't move from where it is summoned and in a Keyes trial standing still isn't an option. You have to keep moving to avoid the pulses as much as possible. This alone actually makes most traps pretty useless. Though I'm admittedly not great with them. My strategy has always been pull or don't use them at all. I've seen others do great things with traps but I can't figure out how anyone manages to summon trip mines in the middle of a mob without using the pull technique or how to get any use out of Time Bomb at all when it normally ends up exploding before anything can be pulled into it and having the same interruption problem when trying to summon in the middle of a mob.|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
So the OP couldnt use Triage?...thats not in Traps?
|
Like I said, I made the Traps Defender on a whim but I have been really liking the uses for traps in the BAF trial. No pulling needed, they run into the traps anyway and I don't have to summon mid combat. I can have the traps set up as a horde of Resistance come running and then watch them get stuck by me as I shoot them with Cryo ammunition to slow them down even more.
Quote:
|
i am thinking he never actualy did this trial..... As he would have been whining more about the pulses destroying his stuff he summoned more then about some leader. |
Quote:
| Though i could understand a leader getting mad if he just saw someone not doing anything or continualy pulling out acid mortars....right near Anti-Matter. |
To give you an idea of how I've actually built my Traps/Dual Pistols Defender. I have 2 separate builds for him. Build 1 which is the build I started out with leveling up that I made for me to be able to solo only has Web Grenade, Force Field Generator, and Seeker Drones. I only get these 3 powers because they're the only powers that aren't stationary and can actually follow me around. I just rely on my Dual Pistols for DeBuffs which works surprisingly well. (Not so much in the lower levels but it's like any toon, the lower levels always suck.) Build 2 is were all my Traps are. I started working on this at level 10 and still have quite a few Dual Pistols attacks just not as many as on my other build. My traps build has everything except for the Trip Mines and Time Bombs because they're interruptible. They still use END even when interrupted and it irritates me allot so I respected out of them.
That being said I only use my Traps build for BAF. I have tried both build in all 3 trials but I find stationary abilities to be completely useless when you can't remain stationary while fighting. BAF is the exception because you don't need to move in that one and I find the traps are allot more useful during the escape than just simply shooting at them. Of course I use them on the courts when fighting the AVs but I find them slightly less useful there though still somewhat helpful when we're remaining on the courts and not running all over the map like in a Lambda fighting Marauder. It's pointless to summon a trap during a Marauder fight when he's just going to jump across the map 2 sec. later anyway so I just shoot him.
Quote:
| For those that dont know.....its not about damage or pulses doing more damage...its called any form of attack whether it be a debuff or even zero damage on antimatter....makes the pulses happen more often in that first portion..... |
Quote:
| By the way......the Spawns and such in other places...not where antimatter is.......should have been the Ops priority location....... |
Quote:
| SOoooooo if he was hanging out by anti-matter...well....there you go....that can easiy get people getting mad at you and thinking you are causing pulses. |
Quote:
| *By the way...looks like people on this thread trigger off the dark/dark part.......Op said he played a traps/pistols.... |
Dark/Dark is my 7 year old Defender who I mentioned because of similar incidence at that time.
Traps/Dual Pistol is the more recent incident that occurred in the trial.
Hope that clears up the confusion for everyone.
Oh and... cats hate me.
(might have something to do with the fact that cats eat birds and my dad is Mallardman.)
Quote:
Ummm, you just answered your own question. Why would he bother using Triage Beacon when a) it's a static +regen field, and thus impossible to apply meaningfully to a group moving between reactor controls, and b) gets repeatedly destroyed by the radiation pulses and multitude of enemy AoE attacks?|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
So the OP couldnt use Triage?...thats not in Traps?
i am thinking he never actualy did this trial..... As he would have been whining more about the pulses destroying his stuff he summoned more then about some leader. |
Quote:
| *By the way...looks like people on this thread trigger off the dark/dark part.......Op said he played a traps/pistols.... |
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
Quote:
Don't forget c) Doesn't add enough +regen to have an appreciable impact against the pulses.|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
Ummm, you just answered your own question. Why would he bother using Triage Beacon when a) it's a static +regen field, and thus impossible to apply meaningfully to a group moving between reactor controls, and b) gets repeatedly destroyed by the radiation pulses and multitude of enemy AoE attacks?
|
Fully enhanced you're looking at about an extra 12 HP/sec on a squishy if you're standing near the beacon. Over 30 seconds that's 360 HP, and as mentioned earlier, good luck standing still for that long in a Keyes. You'd be useless as everyone moved on to the next terminal. The pulse is half of your max health at minimum. Even a controller takes like 500 damage from that, making it impossible for Triage to keep up even if you could stay near it.
A tanker or brute will get more HP/sec from it, but they'll also take more damage from the pulses... It's a losing battle either way.
I hesitate to call any power useless, because everything can be used situationally, but Triage Beacon is pretty near the top of my list of skippable powers.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I haven't done Keyes, but I would think a kinetic would shine in a non-damage debuff project. Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift are great for reducing damage. Siphon Speed at one point was found to have an irresistible debuff against Giant Monsters; I don't know if they closed that opportunity yet.
|
Siphon speed is in fact still unresistable, which has some interesting implications for the other trials (I remember a Surveillance screenshot of Marauder having 10000% recharge debuff resist which I thought was unfair to Ice tankers, but I figure there's some mechanics reason for that), but not Keyes.
Quote:
You really abuse ellipses, and they're only supposed to be three periods. @_@|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
-Redacted-
|
As for OP, I sympathize, I really do. I don't play defenders very often, but whenever I do I remember exactly why I use them so little. I had somebody PM me on an Empath toon to ask "Are you a healer?" and my response was "No, I'm an Empath". They responded with "LoL Empath. Riiiiight."
It's as if people don't realize that there is no set called "Healing", and Empathy works just as well as a buff set. I play an Ill/Emp troller who spends more time buffing teammates than he does healing, because with said buffs in place on the right players, healing is very rarely required, if at all, and I'd imagine a defender could easily play in a similar manner, buffing the right people who need it, attacking, and healing when someone gets themselves into trouble.
This is partly my fault so I will apologise to you now.
I'm sorry for being an attentive and active Empathy Healer on the Trials and giving everyone the wrong impression about Defenders.
Quote:
I'm more than willing to define certain powers useless in a given context, and don't think I'd be unreasonable in stating that Triage Beacon is useless (or nealy so) on the Keyes trial.
|
Originally Posted by MTS
I hesitate to call any power useless, because everything can be used situationally, but Triage Beacon is pretty near the top of my list of skippable powers.
|
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
Quote:
Taunt does not, nor does provoke or confront.|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
For those that dont know.....its not about damage or pulses doing more damage...its called any form of attack whether it be a debuff or even zero damage on antimatter....makes the pulses happen more often in that first portion.....
|
Quote:
| Its very annoying....there is no defense or resistance to pulses....only healing....no place to go to to escape them they always hit....and they do alot of damage. |
... or "Defender Horror Stories" I'm not really sure what to call this topic.
Basically this topic is for horror stories of DeBuffing Defenders being kicked from teams for doing exactly what they are suppose to do and not healing. If you are actually a Empathy Defender this topic isn't really for you but you're welcome to join anyway.
So 7 years ago when I first started playing this game I spent 4 months soloing my Dark/Dark Defender to 50. This was a difficult grinding process with the little damage I could do and there were times were it was impossible to solo and I was left begging for teams.
This is due to the fact that 7 years very few people actually understood what a Dark/Dark Defender was so I got kicked from most teams basically for not being an Empathy Defender. Every single kick came with the message "Stop attacking and heal people." Or "People are dieing because that idiot healer refuses to heal them." And the whole time I was going "I'm not a healer!" When the search comments first came out I even wrong "NOT A HEALER!" in big letters like that which of course no one bothered to read and still assumed I was an Empath when they say the blue shield.
It wasn't till City of Villains first came out without the benefits of a primary healing set that people finally started to realize the benefits of a good DeBuffer and ever sense then my Dark/Dark Defender has been a welcomed addition to any team instead of "That stupid healer who refuses to heal".
As of today though I'm not sure why but I managed to run into yet another person who doesn't understand the concept of DeBuffs. As he was forming a league for a Keyes Trials at least 3 different people had said "Wow we've got 5 Healers" to which I responded that "I'm not a healer" This was with a Traps/Dual Pistols Defender.
When we got to the 3rd Reactor the leader suddenly started yelling at me to stop attacking. This wasn't because of Anti-Matter I already know not to attack him and yelled at someone earlier in the trial for attacking him. Nope this was just because, you guessed it, they wanted me to stop attacking and heal. To which I yet again said "I'm not a healer!" to which he simply responded "If you keep attacking you're getting kicked." So I stopped attacking.
Of course he kicked me anyway for leeching because without attacking there's nothing else I can do. So I got kicked for doing what he told me to do because he didn't understand the concept of a Non-Healing Defender.
He also complained that I wasn't listening during the trial even though I had done what he told me to which was to stop attacking. And he was the one not listening when I said there's nothing else I can do, it's attack or sit here in the Hospital because I'm not a healer. And he knew this before the trial started so it's not like I had lead him to believe I could heal and then never healed.
So anyone else have any horror stories of people like this that essentially have kicked you because they want you to use a power set you don't even have and stop attacking?