The return of the people who don't know what a Defender is...

Oh you will get no arguement from me that a Tanker is the best at the role of tank. But that role can be picked up by a well built and played scrapper, brute, defender or Mastermind (perhaps not as well though).

The point I was attempting to make is one should not assume all defenders are healers when a corruptor, controller or mastermind can pick up the role as well.

Actually Corrupters get stuck with that title as well even though it's not even their primary power set. Though people are more likely to actually ask a Corrupter if they can heal rather than just assume they can.

My first Corrupter was fire/thermal and actually the very first time someone yelled at me for attacking and not healing on that character and kicked me off the team I had a moment of "Oh no, I'm not doing this again." and deleted the character. I think I was in my early 20's.

I was playing like a Blaster because the primary power set was built that way, my secondary was present but not something I was totally focused on.

As for Controllers, they really suck as "healers". They're really only meant to heal as a Defender support if things get really ugly. Controller Endurance makes it impossible to play as a Defender replacement as you'll be standing there waiting for your Endurance to come back while people are dieing. I've done it before when we didn't have a Defender on the team. Not to mention Controller Heals, Buffs, and DeBuffs are considerably weaker than their Defender counterparts.

Now Masterminds I think are actually better at it than Corrupters but people always look to Corruters because well, people hate Masterminds. Having played 7 of them and love them personally I have noticed that I'm rarely in a team with other Masterminds because if we get invited at all there's normally only one to avoid cluttering the mission with pets. While I do understand the need not to block door ways I do find it's easier to push them out of the way than the other 7 players on the team who tend to block door ways more than pets do. Plus if pets can't be pushed which is rare, any good MM knows how to use the GoTo command to move them out of the way and then put them back on follow when it's clear. Anyway because nearly all MM powers are made to support pets and also other players they don't have many attacks to focus on like a Corrupter. I'm much more likely to heal with a Mastermind than any other character though I still try to build for DeBuff more than heal.

Was playing my Demon/Pain Mastermind yesterday and had my Nullify Pain on auto during the Siege and Nightstar fight in BAF I was mainly resumming pets over and over again and as often as I could hitting my World of Pain buff, my T2 ReBirth, my T2 Pyro Judgment, and an AOE Fear power from the intimidation power poll that I don't think is actually doing anything but I hit it anyway. And of course I always have Soothing Aura running. I'd like to do more as I've got 3 whip powers and 3 Soul Master attacks I'm not using at this point but my main focus is the damn pets which Siege kills ways too easily. I don't know why, Nightstar almost never kills my pets but Siege slaughters them.

I disagree. Controllers are easily competitive with Defenders as healers. Their modifiers are actually second best in the game, ahead of Corruptors. There is also a very large amount of build synergy between long recharge powers in Empathy and long recharge powers in the control sets. I don't know what sort of Controller you were playing, but running out of endurance trying to heal pretty much shouldn't happen. About the worst you can say is that strategic use of controls lowers your need to heal, although it is still useful.

Illusion/Empathy. And I tried it two ways. Still trying to use illusion while healing at the same time. END sucks. Ignoring illusion and only using Empathy. END sucks. The Empathy set was actually what was draining most of my END as I had little to no issues when I was only using my Illusion powers.

And it should probably be noted that this is how the power set was at level 10... and 7 years ago.

Rail my first ever 50 level was an ILL/EMP controller and I never had a problem with end.. And that was back before stamina was inherant and you could start slotting it at level 2. Just what sort of build do you have.. and have you heard of end reducers. Like Tex my strategy was always if everything that can hurt my team is dead or held (or in the case of Illusion.. confused and attacking each other instead of the team) then no one needs to be healed. And i don't know what you carry in your inspiration tray but mine always has a supply of respites,and catch a breaths so if do run low on end or need a heal before my own recharges I can do so.. I can't heal or buff anyone if I am laying face down in the sewer.

At low levels end used to suck for almost every AT and powerset which was the main reason people screamed for years until we finally got stamina turned into an inherent. It's better now, and yeah I will even slot training orgins in stamina slots to help, but until the 20s and either SOs or IOs there is still a drain you need to contend with.

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Actually Controllers and Corruptors have the same "ranged" buff/debuff modifiers for everything except slows and mezzes. Controllers do get slightly higher "melee" buff modifiers but those (generally) are only used by the self buffs in the Power Pools/Epic Pools rather than in their actual secondary powers.

So, for example, the shields in Cold Domination or the heal in Thermal Radiation have the same effectiveness for both ATs since those are ally buffs but controllers get slightly higher values from Scorpion Shield since it is a self buff.

Most answered this already but... if you are 50 and having endurance issues at all, you need to either change your tactics or change your build.

I have both an Empathy defender and an Ice/Empathy controller (don't really use the controller much anymore). Comparatively, yes, my controller has more endurance issues. The reason is that playing a controller is a much more active role than playing an Empathy defender. But, my controller spams a lot more AoE controls which tend to take a lot more endurance than other stuff uses. But, I am sure that I could remedy that problem some thru the use of rebuilding and incarnate stuff helps a lot too.

Again, if you are struggling with end problems, it really comes down to your tactics and/or slotting.

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You're right about buffs in general being the same, but heals are just slightly better for Controllers. Thermal Radiation's heals break down like this:

Seems I was wrong about something else though: Masterminds are better than either Controllers or Corruptors. Their Thermal heals are valued at 11.7 and 22.9.

[Unrelatedly, Corruptors have a seriously weird value for Stuns specifically. It is lower than the rest of their mezzes--I believe actually the lowest of any AT in the game, even Blasters.]

Where are you getting those values from?

I just checked the values in RedTomax and it's saying what I always thought, Controllers and Corruptors have the same heals with Masterminds being slightly worse.

Going by RedTomax the values are:

At level 1:
Controller: 11 & 21.56
Corruptor: 11 & 21.56
Mastermind: 8.8 & 17.2

At level 50:
Controller: 117.799 & 230.885
Corruptor: 117.799 & 230.885
Mastermind: 94.239 & 184.194

http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...rmal_Radiation
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...rmal_Radiation
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...rmal_Radiation

You are correct. Must be a Mids database error. I just checked the powers in game and, at least according to the detailed game text, Corruptor/Controller healing is the same value. I've gone years thinking Controllers had slightly better (but not a whole lot better) heals, although I knew the shields were the same. Thanks for the correction.

Why exactly are you talking about level 50 and incarnate content when you quoted me as talking about a level 10 character who was deleted 7 years ago? And the other post mentioned IOs which again isn't reliant to a 7 year old character.

Anyway...

Each archetype has different base HPs with Tankers having the highest, Brutes are second. Masterminds have the lowest base HP not even reaching into the triple digits but they actually do better than most others because of pets taking DMG for them. Blasters have the second lowest HP.

Now while all characters have the same END different powers use more endurance than others. This is partially why some melee toons have more issues with END than others depending on their ratio of toggles VS. Automatic shields and how they're slotted. Just as an example Super Reflexes vs. Willpower. SR for the longest time was the only truly natural power set but it's almost all toggles that drain END when activated. Willpower provides an alternative for people who wanted a natural power set without the massing END drain because while there are still a few toggles there are enough auto powers to make it more worth while if you choose to skip your toggles than SR is without any toggles.

That being said Controllers use allot more END than their Defender counterparts. I specifically choose a Dark/Dark Defender because I wanted a ranged attack character with a good amount of HP and didn't drain END too quickly. My main character was suppose to be a controller originally and that one was Ice/Storm. I deleted him at level 36 shortly after City of Villains came out. Even with SOs in him I still couldn't keep up Endurance.

I normally keep 2 columns of Respites, 2 columns of CaBs, and 1 Column of Awakens on me at all times. With a level 36 Ice/Storm I'd go thew my attack chain once, wait for all my powers to recharge before going threw the attack chain again, and repeat. Eat a CaB when waiting on recharge wasn't enough. This was the only way I could keep my END up without running out of CaBs in less than a min. I hated doing it because non of my other characters were this bad with END unless there were Sappers around.

I did manage to keep most mobs held long enough that I didn't need to attack any more than I was. The holds would be up again before they got out of the last set of holds. But I always felt like if I wasn't sitting there waiting for END to recover all the time I could actually help kill guys rather than just hold them.

I enjoyed Domintors more for that very reason because Domination make it so the END use isn't even an issue. Domination goes off right when I need it most, bringing END to full again so I can keep attacking even after a controller would of had to stop.

Actually, blasters have higher base HP than Corruptors, Defenders, Controllers and Dominators. They also beat out HEATs and VEATs (although the Epic ATs do have higher HP caps) and are on par with Stalkers, so they're closer to the top of the pile than the bottom.

Actually it's not a bug in Mids but rather it presenting healing powers in a slightly odd way. The value given on the "Info" tab is the amount healed as a percentage of the ATs base hit points. Since Corruptors have slightly more hit points than Controllers they show a smaller percentage for the same absolute healing. If you hover over the percentage value or check the "Effect" tab it shows the absolute healing value.

I'm not entirely sure why Mids' does it that way. I suspect that it is something to do with how healing scalars are stored/calculated but I don't really know.

It makes about as much sense as your assertion that Controllers are bad healers based on an Illusion/Empathy Controller you got to level 10 seven years ago

Edit: Just out of curiosity I loaded up Mids to check the End cost of heals and the values of the buffs in Empathy for both Controllers and Defenders. It's showing the exact same values for both ATs. I checked the numbers on RedTomax and it's the same there. Is this correct? I just assumed that both RA's and AB would have higher values on the Defender.

The point of that was to see if there was a reason your /Emp Controller would be running out of End more quickly than an Emp/ Defender. But looking at the numbers the only difference you should see are the heals being a bit weaker on the Controller.

1 word: Vigilance.

As much as that inherent sucks, at lower levels, it adds up fast having upwards of 60% endurance discount on all your powers.

Controllers don't have access to that, and at lower levels its much harder to keep the entire team at 100% hp, so a defender is going to get some kind of endurance discount, where the controller wont.

Granted, its not really something to count on, but even on a empathy defender its difficult to keep everyone up and running, and when you falter, you get extra endurance to play with in the process.

Just a quick suggestion to those still keeping this thread alive arguing. Please read through these threads..

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showpost.php?p=3736740&postcount=1

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showpost.php?p=3697693&postcount=1

The OP has, as you can see if you looked, a tendancy to start a thread and then despite overwhelming evidence that he MAY not be right will continue to argue and argue and argue his point...

Nuclea makes a very valid point in referring to the OP's reference to a character he managed to level to 10 and then deleted more than 7 years ago and now seems perfectly content to base opinions on how that AT works today based on that.

I strongly suggest .. just stop posting here.

That's a fair point that I hadn't thought of, and it definitely makes my low-level Defenders lives easier when I play them. But that didn't exist 7 years ago either . Maybe the End cost for Controller secondaries was higher back then or something. I only started playing with I3 (EU launch) so missed some of the craziness of the early game.

Hmm, maybe you're right. I made it to page 2 of the 2nd thread you linked before I admitted defeat. That many Wall-o-texts in rapid succession can not be good for one's mental health.

I thought even backhanded compliments of Vigilance were banned on the Defender forums.

Interesting. I never knew that. Thanks for sharing.

Nah, the new version is fine.

You do realize that for some people the numbers on the tiny league window are too damn small, right? I have 20/85 vision, and even with my glasses ON I can barely tell the difference between the 2 and 3 at the tiny font size used for the league window.

I personally find it MUCH clearer to use the COLOR of the team as a reference rather than the number, simply because the number is TOO SMALL.

I play at 1920*1080 on a 24' widescreen monitor. I have no issues with screen real estate, I have plenty of issues with tiny font size, and using any smaller resolution makes me want to rip my eyes out from how blurry things look.

That would be a DRASTIC change in the game that I haven't heard about until just now. I did a check on all the ATs except for Soldier's of Arachnos who didn't exist yet though it was about a week or so before they were first announced.

I don't remember the exact numbers for all of them but Blasters have always been known as the lowest characters for HP on heroes. That's part of the reason they're so squishy.

Now that you bring this up... and sense I never really did a comparison for SoA anyway... I'm going to check in game and post my findings in a couple hours.